Dear Mike,

I also neglected to get that memo. In fact, if I had received it, I would not have wasted all of the time and expense to send staff to spend over a month in Vienna at the factory and going there myself to learn first hand everything that is different about the Bosendorfer designs.

Your comment above is irresponsible at best, Mike. "Common knowledge" should read "common gossip". You have confused two different factors and you know well enough that the author of your quote was not speaking of Bosendorfer's two new models when he referred to "this degree of activity".

Although the 214 and 280 WERE designed, among many other things, to offer more power than their predessors, the 213 and the 275, they were absolutely not designed to sound like an American piano of any brand.

You could ask the opinion of Charles Pettaway, head of piano at Lincoln University why he chose the Bosendorfer 280 for his new hall. Or ask the German Society of Pennsylvania why they chose the 214 for thier newly redesigned hall. Both choices involved lots of professional input and both choices were made expressly for the differences in performance between these pianos and the new Steinway.

My 2 cents,

I haven't met these three, ..... ah, ....... gentlemen, but I'm sure they exist. The range of human personality is great, and the incentives in retailing do not always bring out the best in people.

But the discussion here is not about sales ethics writ large. It's about one particular set of claims made publicly on the website of a dealer who represents a rather well known and important brand. If you want to say that you have heard worse in person, I'll grant that. But when you raise these archetypical horror stories to diminish the existing written case, that doesn't wash.

Oh, and Mr. Billings now has two posts to his credit. So he is in fact a poster here.

Hey Rich. If that 214 you sold me starts to sound like a Steinway I will demand you upgrade me to an Estonia concert grand immediately.

The Steinway dealer's statements, as referenced in the OP, are mind-boggling, and reflect poorly on both the dealership and on Steinway as his employer. But I can at least figure out their agendas, even though I have no sympathy for them.

Which leaves open a very real question: what is Mike Carr's agenda? I confess to being baffled. I have been hesitating to post this question, fearing that I am about to fall into some trap he has set, but my curiosity has now gotten the better of me.

Mike will answer for himself, but an iconoclast doesn't have to have a hidden agenda. He has reminded us that bashing is a regular part of the sales process, even if most of the bashing never winds up in print. How many times have we had someone here mention the old "Kawai uses plastic parts" gambit. As I explained, I think that isn't really germane to this thread, but it is a bit of context.

About his Bosendorfer and Fazioli comments ...... got me.

I dunno, but Mike's posts seem pretty reasonable to me. I see where he is coming from.

If you want an equivalent from the other side, you can go over to Ori's website and postings here. They are laughable.

While I might not always agree with Mike's opinions I really enjoy reading them. It's what facilitates lively debate and keeps the dealers here on their toes. I'm sure a few have asked that he be banned for this discourse. I say it's necessary for the health of the forum or it would quickly become "Piano Dealers World" as some other dealers I know have called it recently. I would would encourage everyone here (dealers included) to visit several showrooms and listen to what comes out of the mouths of some salesmen. I'm sure Mr. Flimflam could pick up a few pointers, or be transformed by the truth few seem to offer. I think selling a piano is like selling a dream, imbuing some mythical quality in a piano, that in reality is just not there.

While some Americans may agree with the opinions stated on the website, most Europeans would laugh him back to the farm.

Ori and I have "bumped heads" in posts here several times over the years, often on rather unfriendly terms. So, coming to his defense isn't easy.

In re Plowboy's post, I just looked over Ori's website, http://www.allegropianos.com/, and it looks pretty clean to me. In fact, it is quite frank and open it its approach.

Plowboy, if this is just a random cheap shot (as you certainly have taken your share in the past), you should remove you post. If you acutally found his website "laughable", let us all in on the joke.

Plowboy,

I wish you actually provided examples of something that you feel is laughable.
I find it interesting that you choose to mention my name as I did not participate in this thread, or actually any other thread for awhile...

For your convenience and ease of search, just click the link to my website on the bottom of my signature line to search and bring those alleged quotes.

I'll be happy to relate to any quotes you bring.


To demonstrate how easy it is, I just looked at some of your recent posts (from threads I did not participate in) and found telling information of your bias about the subject, apparent zeal to justify certain marketing philosophies... and ease of throwing unsubstantiated accusations at dealers.

I would say that some of the recent examples below not only demonstrate this bias...but may also bring a smile to the face of anyone with basic knowledge of the piano industry.


All the below posts were made by Plowboy within the past month:

Steve,

This thread is about a Steinway dealer's take on his competition, on the surface at least.

If you look at his particular website, while the Steinway dealer does make clear his opinions on various brands, he does not pick out or seem obsessed by any individual dealers.

On the Allegro website, which for your own reasons you are using as both rebuttal to Plowboy and as a model for a frank and open approach(whatever the heck that means), the owner focuses on a competitor by name several times.

The Allegro owner goes on to disavow any current affiliation to the named competitor, but conveniantly leaves the details up to the reader's imagination, going so far as to allude that this competing dealer is selling a "new" piano that is 5 years old.

I don't know whether you want to categorize the Allegro website as laughable or sad or bad-mouthing or educational or gossip or common knowledge.

One thing for certain, I don't recall any piano websites targeting an individual dealership by name, at least not in this fashion.

Mike

Actually Rich - and Mike, correct me if I am wrong, I read Mike's post as a more 'toung-in-cheek' thing. No need to take that too seriously, he's just doing a bit of trolling to get Bose Eric's blood up.

Nobody would ever assume that Bosendorfer was trying to mimic Steinway's design, lol. They are completely different philosophies of sound & design.

Also - I notice this thread evolving more into a dealer vs. consumer thing.

Many industry pros participate here, either publicly, or at least privately. In fact, at one point I heard pianoworld being referred to as dealerworld.

While plowboy may be a little out of line with a blatant unsupported statement, I must admit it's nice to have unfiltered response from folks outside the industry.

While the internet offers us, for the most part, immunity to actual accountability, and the added bonus of hiding behind monikers, it's important to remember that there are real people behind these posts.

Mike,

If you were actually on the side of the consumer... you should be welcoming any disclaimer reducing confusion.

The issue regarding the specific piano you mentioned is not necessarily the fact that the piano represented as 'new' was made in 2005 (or about 6 and a half years ago), nor that there had been significant differences between this piano and current production pianos...and not even the fact that the instrument (in contradiction to what was specifically represented for while on that dealer's website) had no manufacturers warranty according to the manufacturers policy (that such piano's warranty is offered only when sold through an authorized dealer).

It is an issue of consumer's confusion and we felt that due to various reasons there was confusion regarding the matter that merited a disclaimer.

By the way, this disclaimer went up during the summer and it does not mention any dealer's name in spite of your claims).

You gotta be kidding.

Many of the German/Austrian piano makers seem to be doing a fairly brisk business in China today, incidentally a market where mostly Hamburg - not New York Steinways are being sold.

Perhaps these guys should be reminded that by changing their historically grown identity, they could only expected to do a little better in future still....

Norbert

Rich,

If you’d point out any significant(no quibbling) difference between what I've noticed:

"Even Bosendorfer has jumped on the Steinway gravy train (such as it is) to some extent. The last few I played seemed to be emulating the Steinway sound as far as projection and tonal color . . . Also, I didn’t say Bosendorfer sounded like Steinway. I said they are trying to sound like Steinway. Big difference. They’re still Bosendorfers, unfortunately, but their emphasis on the American sound has been common knowledge for the past few years, especially the seven foot models."

And what Fine says:

“The rush to sell to Americans has caused some European companies to reconsider the tonal designs of their instruments and to redesign them for better sound projection, tonal color, and sustain — that is, to sound more like American Steinways. Considering that some of these companies are five or six generations old and have redesigned their pianos about that many times in 150 years, this degree of activity is unusual. Some of the redesigns have been great musical successes; nevertheless, the loss of diversity in piano sound is to be mourned . . . In recent years Bösendorfer has made some refinements to its designs to increase tonal projection. The relatively newer 6' 1", 7', and 9' 2" models have been designed specifically to appeal to pianists looking for a more familiar sound. In all models, however, the distinctive Bösendorfer difference is still readily apparent. “

Maybe it’s time to look for that memo.

Mike

Hah - Ok, so it wasn't a trolling attempt. Appologies to Mike. If you simply go by what Larry Fine says, I can see why you wrote that. However, real world experience will prove an entirely different perception.

I remember reading that in LFs book - always felt that 'bosendorfer emulating steinway' was a bit of a stretch. Larry is on this forum, he should chime in at this point. Perhaps Bosendorfer catering to American tastes (in size) is more appropriate. Steinway is a 'founding father' of the American piano heritage, but it is like Apple: It didn't invent the modern piano, it was one of many brands that helped shape it.

It is impossible for a Bosendorfer to sound anything like a Steinway, for the fundamental design differences in the scaling and the rim design. No person with serious performance knowledge about these two brands would ever come to this conclusion.

Watch here for more info: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaSgLU1O4IU&feature=related

That said -

a) The 9'2" is an 88 key model to address the concerns of concert pianists who don't want their center of focus thrown by the 290's extra 9 keys (painted black)

b) The 7' is a size common in demand in America. Possibly to keep up with the popularity of the SF10, BB, and the B. The european semi-concert grand size has always hovered around 7'6".. this is more of a tradition thing, than emulating a particular brand.

c) The 185 fit the much needed 1' gap between the 170 and 200, again (as Larry correctly points out), the popularity of the European grands surges in America.

They all have the 'distinctive Bosendorfer sound', and Bosendorfers choices in size and models was not a manuever to copy Steinway; just to copy the American expectations of piano sizes, a road which Steinway had a big part of paving.

Grotrian has also brought out a roughly 7' model (the 208 cm Charis). It doesn't sound at all like a B. But it does cater to people who don't want the shorter 192 cm model or the larger semi-concert 225 cm. Catering to American tastes can indeed mean many things.

Mike, If you compare the Steinway sound from 30-40 yrs ago to the bright strong sound they have been producing for the last ten yrs or so, it could easily be construed that the Steinway sound is quickly evolving to equal the strength and clarity of the traditional Bosendorfer sound.

For years I thought Steinway was voicing their pianos up to match the growing influence of the Japanese pianos. But you might be right, both Steinway and Yamaha are really trying to get closer to the traditional Bosendorfer sound. Thanks, I never looked at it that way before.

...

That is really funny. Point scored. Touché.

Point taken, Steve. However, I do get a genuine chuckle out of Ori's posts. Perhaps laughable was too strong a word. Chuckable maybe?

The Internets is bad place to come any sort of conclusion about a person's real character. Ori's style of writing and predictability of his Steinway bashing is entertaining, if perhaps a bit pompously bloviating. He's a very intelligent man, and an excellent writer. His jabs are subtle, which is why I enjoy them so much. But, yeah, maybe it's me. I can be as much of jerk as anyone else.

Many posters here have met him in person and attest to his integrity as a salesman. That's what really counts, isn't it?

Ori, just happy to return the favor.

Gosh this thread has spun out of control! Let me put in my $0.02, as a consumer and not a dealer:

I was amused by the wording on this dealer's page. I think it is counter productive, and not likely to get someone who is thinking about a top-tier European import into their store. It certainly didn't get me into their store.

Why not say, even with a bit of puffery:

"If you're considering Fazioli, Bösendorfer, Blüthner, Grotrian, or Bechstein and haven't played a new Steinway B or D, make an appointment with us and spend as much time as you want with the latest Steinway grands. After playing one, you'll understand why you see Steinway on most concert hall stages, and you may end up saving some money over those high-priced imports. Plus you'll have the pride of knowing your piano was manufactured in New York City, and supported by an established chain of nationwide dealers and technicians."

etc. That might get someone into the store.

It seems to me the current wording only reinforces people's current beliefs, and doesn't serve to change minds. (But maybe it works! Who knows?)

Hmmm, I thought the point was to annoy his father in law.

Well said.

Oh Steve, yet another bump?

Strong topics need no bumps!!!

Mike,

There are numerous aspects of my relationship with this dealer that you are not aware of and that I'm not at liberty to disclose.

I think its actually very sad that I had to post such information....but at times one has to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Confusion can hurt both consumer and dealer...and so I feel that in this case the interests are aligned.

I only wish this were true.

To reach any type of *understanding* here one should expect in reverse that the equivalent models by Fazioli, Boesendorfer, Blüthner,Grotrian or C.Bechstein are always being equally tried out as well.

This not being the case, one needs to wonder what exactly this "understanding" is supposed to be based upon.

Norbert