While googling for a piano dealer in Florida (we're building a house there and of course there will be a nice space for a piano), I came across this interesting paragraph.

Here's the website.



Is this really the way to sell a piano?

(And "Investment Value?" Does any new piano go up in value? You're not buying stock in a company.)

Wow!

It just goes to show that some Steinway salespeople have no qualms about stooping to the level of douchebaggery that many other piano salespeople have been known for.
Appalling garbage from an obviously arrogant slinger of crap.

It's a heck of an effective sales pitch, for everybody else except Steinway that is.

I'm not surprised that some dealers do this. Very sad . Makes me sick to the core . It is all BS. Very unfortunate.

On a happier note, there are good dealers out there. Honest, and down-to-earth.

Why is there an asterisk on Bosendorfer?

I'm not surprised that some dealers do this. Very sad . Makes me sick to the core . It is all BS. Very unfortunate.

On a happier note, there are good dealers out there. Honest, and down-to-earth.

Why is there an asterisk on Bosendorfer?

I read the whole article. It's not good, and quite inaccurate indeed. BS-tter.

I am just speechless.

A friend of mine (has been for many years and is a federal court judge) once commented to me:

"one does not raise one's status by making disparaging comments about others".

The comments from the dealer may well reflect his fear of competition from those "lesser" brands he disparages.

Glenn

PS - maybe he didn't like what Larry Fine said about SS NY.

When I was shopping for pianos, the Steinway dealer I visited spent an incredible amount of time (over an hour) badmouthing other pianos and other piano dealers. I was nowhere near Florida--it was not the dealer whose site is referenced above. The Steinway dealer was the only dealer I visited who behaved in this way. I left as soon as I could get away, and never went back.

I do not think that the dealer I visited would have put his words into writing, however. I am absolutely shocked by the above paragraph. It seems to me that the posters on this thread who work for and with Steinway need to take some action about it.

In any event, I look forward to hearing from them here.

And, as Rotom pointed out, luckily there are wonderful dealers out there!

It's quite a rant. Read the whole thing. There are a lot of interesting points. Some sound advice, too.


No argument there, eh?

I think this is endemic to certain piano dealers, and certainly not a Steinway-only issue. Dealers of high-end pianos that aren't Steinways regularly trash the build quality of various NY Steinway instruments, even the newest ones.

Heck, some of the dealers here have made similarly ridiculous statements about whatever it is they don't sell, but compete against.

To their credit, when I bought my upright piano, I also tried the Steinway model K, a Boston 126, and a Petrof or two at the Austin, TX Steinway dealer. I didn't end up buying from them, but when they called to ask how my search was going, they were classy enough to complement the choice that I made, and wished me the best. My local S&S dealer contact also does not trash other makers when we chat about pianos, although they are obviously enthusiastic supporters of the brands they carry.

I do find these sort of statements you cited hilarious, as there's a LOT of misinformation among some otherwise good advice there-- Have you also seen the fake piano review site out there where certain pianos are glaringly placed in the wrong spots to assist whatever dealer they are affiliated with...

What is it about Steinway & Sons that causes the company to a) attract arrogant dealers, and b) tolerate their trashing other brands as a way of selling Steinways?

If Steinway & Sons really made the best pianos in the world, they would allow their pianos to speak for themselves, rather than relying on trash talk to help them make a sale. If they really made the best pianos in the world, Steinway management and dealers would go about their jobs quietly and humbly, not even bothering to comment on the competitiion.

That this sort of trashy behavior continues to go on, and that this dealer is not alone in this behavior, means that the arrogance of the company has to come straight from the top - from management. It seems ingrained in the DNA of Steinway & Sons to belittle and demean the competition as a normal business practice. It is a sign of an unhealthy corporate culture, a disrespect for the piano business, and a deep-seated insecurity in their own product.

I visited two Steinway dealers when I was shopping. They sold their pianos, they didn't trash the competition.

Irony??



yet the link embedded to the word artists...



Sends you to this page http://www.steinway.com/artists which has headline photos of Diana Krall, Harry Connick Jr. and Mitsuko Uchida.

The site makes for entertaining reading.
Apparently, "Steinway also builds a small number of pianos for the European market in Hamburg.." which come equipped with "steam pressed hammers"!

You gotta love it.

Ha! LOL

Hasn't this guy ever heard of lawyers? Lawsuits? Litigation?

Thankfully dealers like this are not the norm.

Numerian: I could not agree with you more. After listening to the Steinway dealer, I concluded that Steinways (and his dealership) could not be all that good, or he would not have had to resort to badmouthing competing pianos (and dealers) in order to sell his pianos (and dealership). In all fairness to him, I had already tried out the Steinway grands that were in the size range at which I was looking, and had not liked any of them; they did not speak to me. Thus, I was not going to buy a Steinway, based on the instruments themselves (when I got a chance to play them, as the salesperson talked all the time, too). The speech I received from the dealer at the end, apparently in an effort to create enthusiasm on my part, simply confirmed my decision that this was not a dealer with whom I wanted to deal. I was not then, and never would, buy a piano based solely on what someone says. The fact that the dealer seemed to assume that I could be persuaded to buy a Steinway whether I liked the pianos or not, based on his badmouthing of the competition, certainly reflects even more poorly on him. It was pretty clear that he thought that I was a fool.

Well, I never returned, as I said earlier.

Here is another quote from the same Steinway page:



Rubbish!

Years ago you could go into a Lincoln dealership and be told how the Lincoln was unbelievably superior to any other car on the market. But out on their used car lot were Cadillacs and Chrysler Imperials that you were told were equal to any car ever made in America.

And we're surprised when Steinway dealers trash new European pianos? 'Twas ever thus.

I remain convinced that I have a superior piano.

Talking down your competition is a universal trait - the only difference is a matter of degrees.

Maybe the OP should make a trip to a few competing dealers to have a more balanced exposure to brand opinions.

Yes, you "do" have a wonderful piano Anne!

But to put it in writing and post it on the Internet... Come On...

The Mustang Ranch here in Nevada does not bad mouth other brothels...

That is pretty awful and someone from the Steinway central office should tell them to take it down, as it reflects poorly on the entire company. However, in fairness, I doubt this is representative of all Steinway dealers. It certainly has not been in my experience, and I've visited quite a few in my travels. In fact, I've tended to find the opposite-- that competing dealers trash Steinway far more frequently and strongly, as well as whatever brand they are not selling. So the Bosie dealer I visited trashed Masons. The Yamaha dealer trashed Steinway. It's part of the piano sales culture and is a turn-off to people who just want information and to buy an acoustic piano. No wonder people buy digital pianos over the internet after reading online reviews. Much less stressful .

Sophia

Obviously, we can't project to all other dealers what the dealer quoted here says.

It was just surprised to see this expressed so bluntly in writing.

I was googling for a Florida Fazioli dealer when I found him, because he mentions Fazioli here google found it;



I nearly did a spit-take! They are taken very seriously, of course.

First, I stand by my comment. I am not trashing anyone, I am just stating the obvious. It is my opinion on my own web site. I am a second generation dealer with 40 years experience. I have represented Bosendorfer, Yamaha, Schimmel and almost every other brand before becomeing a Steinway dealer 16 years ago. I am also an award winning columnist for Music Inc. and Music Making magazines.

I am not willing to drink the Kool-Aid and grant equivilancy of Bosendorfer and Fazioli. They are not equivilant and the number of artists who play them without compensation, and the number of Halls that have them (unless they have been donated) is insignificant. The number of halls that have them and use them is even smaller.

That said, all 9' pianos sound pretty good and there is no accounting for taste. Feel free to disagree. But let's not get personal.

I stand by this comment, except that since it was written Story & Clark has switched vendors to Heintzman in China and they are even better. It is one thing to call it rubish and another thing to address the facts. My data is derived from the US Department of Commerece and has been published, among other sources, in Music Trades Magazine.

Sorry Greg, but that "opinion" of yours on your web page does Steinway no credit.

The fact that you think it is "obvious" doesn't give me a lot of faith in your powers of argument. That's understatement, BTW.

Greg:

Welcome to Piano World!

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm a piano customer. We're planning for retirement in a couple of years, and wanted to upgrade our pianos to high-end ones, now that we'll have more time to play and practice. I replaced my Yamaha C7 in our California house with a Bosendorfer 225 recently, and am looking for a piano in about a year time-frame for a house in Florida. I found your website by googling for "florida piano dealer fazioli".

I completely avoided Steinway in my search for a "high end" piano, which may seem odd. I'm a staunch "buy American" type of person; I drive American cars, for example. But something about the brand just doesn't appeal to me as much as the European pianos do. You can just dismiss that as "there's no accounting for taste," or you can try to understand why.

Reading copy like this on a dealer's website isn't likely to want to make me come in to that dealer. You may want to try to think of positive things to say about your product to make your business more inviting to more customers. Do you really think the information you decided to present has resulted in one more sale or one more customer?

I am glad to know that PianoMadam found a new retail home. Not Mustang Ranch--- no, she was not that kind of madam--- but in scenic south Florida, which writer Carl Hiaasen has described as "a paradise of scandal." Although she was permanently barred from PW when caught in the act of perpetrating the dishonest practice of using several different identities (also known as sock puppets), her arguments for Steinway products had some sass. Like an alley cat, knocked off a fence when a boot is shied at it, she landed on her feet and lived to scratch out the eyes of her rivals unabated... and that's the way it should be. Just not here.

Why should the site be altered? Let the dealer say what he likes. Some will flock to his showroom, feeling they've found a kindred spirit and a true home on Tamiami Trail. Others will be warned off, and would not touch one of their instruments with a barge pole. The true believers will look with smug condescension on those purchasers of "adequate German and Austrian pianos," as they've always done and always will.

I think speechlessness is just about the right response.

Funniest thing I read today, by far...

Mr. Billings,

According to your bio, you are the author of the Piano Retailer Code of Ethics.

As owner of the Steinway Piano Gallery of Naples, would you please explain how your "opinion" posted on your "own web site" dovetails with the following point from the aforementioned ethical code?

I'm sure Mr. Billings will comment that it is indeed well known that 99% of the professional piano market is owned by Steinway. By that what is meant is that 99% if venues and 99% of concert artists are Steinway artists. Because of Steinway's well known ownership of this aspect of the market the case can be made that no other piano comes close to Steinway in recognition by professional pianists. Add in the bullying of Gary Grafman when he dared perform on a Bosendorfer and you get a situation where other artists may be unwilling to risk not having a Steinway available to perform on when Steinway is the only piano that's readily available anywhere in the world. Does that make Bosendorfer or Fazioli merely adequate pianos for either home of professional use? Of course not! But, Steinway is the only piano company with the infrastructure in place to provide pianos for professional use throughout most of the world. So the monopoly continues.

since when is quantity synonymous with quality? by that pretzel logic steingraebers must be bottom of the barrel.

So when are the Steinway thugs going after Herbie Hancock and Disney Concert Hall?

I have to agree with Steve. Monopolies bring out unpleasant habits in companies. Steinway has a virtual monopoly on the use of pianos in concert halls around the world. If we grant that it has taken a lot of hard work to create and then maintain this monopoly, we still have to agree that ultimately Steinway, as a publicly held company, would only continue financing this monopoly (the Concert Artists Program) if it had demonstrable, ongoing financial benefits for the company. Those benefits come in the form of increased piano sales, which result in part by Steinway claiming that an overwhelming number of concert pianists play only on Steinways, and twisting that to infer that Steinways are therefore superior to all other concert grands and are the piano of choice for almost all artists.

These last two conclusions are certainly unwarranted and probably not true, but we just don't know, because artists are not given a choice. A few with significant stature have stood up to the monopoly, and even then been chastised by Steinway or even punished by them because the company refuses to supply them any more of their pianos at concert halls. These are hardly the actions of a company interested altruistically in promoting high standards of piano performance worldwide by offering free pianos at concert halls. These are, instead, the actions of a company willing to play hard ball with concert pianists and concert halls just to maintain its monopoly.

That's what monopolies do to companies. In this case you get distorted logic in claiming that almost all concert artists prefer Steinways because they are such superior instruments to the competition, and then you get nasty, vengeful actions by the company when any artist tries to buck the system.

For the record, no artist has ever been compensated to play publicly on a Fazioli piano. I know this because I've met Paolo Fazioli many times over the years since I have been a Fazioli owner, and he insists the company does not pay anybody to play his instruments. His philosophy is very simple: he encourages concert artists to play on whatever instruments they prefer. I've never once heard him say anything negative about Steinway pianos. His passion has always been ways to improve the piano, and he gets enthusiastic about the ongoing advances that he and other companies are making to piano design and construction. While he could ramp up his concert grand production and create competition for the Concert Artists Program, he has no interest in setting up a marketing program like that. He concentrates on making the very best pianos he can, and that means he prefers to keep production numbers down to 100+ a year.

I'm sorry Mr. Billings thinks that Fazioli and Bosendorfer are notable only because they are obscure and terribly over-priced, and that no serious artist would perform publicly on such a piano (and those who do play on these pianos have to be bribed in order to subject themselves to such embarrassment). There are in point of fact some superb concert artists today who will only play publicly on these pianos. There are other artists who prefer Hamburg Steinways to NY Steinways. I've been to several concerts by Maurizio Pollini where he uses a Hamburg Steinway that travels with him, but blazoned on the side in much bigger letters is the name "Fabbrini". Apparently the basic NY and Hamburg Steinway isn't good enough for Mr. Pollini.

Should I take away from that that there is something wrong with Hamburg and NY Steinways? Absolutely not. Steinway makes wonderful pianos. As I wrote earlier, the company should be willing to let the pianos speak for themselves. There is no need to keep running advertisements suggesting that concert pianists choose Steinways because this is their artistic preference. They may have artistic reasons for playing on Steinways, but they also choose Steinways because this is their business preference, the result of having no other practical options when traveling from city to city. The company would also do well to instruct their dealers to stop expressing negative comments about other pianos, and certainly to stop making stuff up about the competition, as Mr. Billings does.

But Mr. Billings contends that it's just his opinion, and that you shouldn't get personal.

He said this:



You see, saying that something is "just my opinion" is the standard neutralizer that allows people to say outrageous things. When challenged, "Hey, it's just my opinion, don't get personal." Sort of like chocolate versus vanilla, after all. Right?

As an individual, he can express any opinion he wishes.
But as a salesman, he ought to focus on business.

Has Mr. Billings adequately included his affiliation and role in the piano industry in his signature? Just asking.

It appears that Greg Billings has recently joined PW in order to address the concerns mentioned in this thread... let's give him a chance to comply with the rules about industry affiliation.

Rick

Along with the ridiculously high prices of their new pianos...

Following some of the links above, I learned a few things that may be news to many: in 2000 the "William Steinway University" was founded. [I'll refrain from making a reference to All Steinway Schools to avoid entangling current on-going threads here.] There you can get a Bachelor's Degree in five days. The article goes on to say that another five days of (no doubt intensive) training at the William Steinway University will get you a Masters Degree.

Poor Yamaha, all they have is the Little Red Schoolhouse!

I have only read a few paragraphs from the website of this dealer.

There is a lot of opinion stated as fact.

At the bottom of the web site page there is this comment in the “general conclusions”

“In conclusion, it is not reasonable to assume the quality of a piano based on the home country of the brand name.”

So after page of what, 10,000 characters or more written, the writer dismisses his own argument.

This whole thing is a waste of a good discussion.

quote]

since when is quantity synonymous with quality? [/quote]

"Quantity has a quality all its own."

VLADIMIR LENIN, quoted in James F. Dunnigan's How to Make War

I had a local Steinway dealer actually tell me that Bosendorfer was a better instrument to play a certain composer's work. I don't remember the composer's name, but I certainly remember the comment and that he mentioned his competition in such a favorable manner.

You have to respect someone like that.

This kind of topic rarely ends well.

It's at 5 pages now, expect to see it at 20 soon!

He might have been making a joke about a Bösendorfer being good for playing Ravel's "Jeux d'Eau" which has a G#0 in it that's generally played as an A on pianos that only have 88 keys.

BTW: I just got a recording of Schubert Sonata D.960 and the "Moments Musicaux" performed by Frank Levy on Palexa records on a Fazioli piano.

And despite this comment from that Steinway website



...there doesn't seem to be any lack of dynamic range or "stability" in this recording.

There was an article in the Jerusalem Post the other day (here's an English link) about pianist Revital Hachamoff and her fondness for Fazioli (or פציולי as they say in Israel).

Here's something I can relay from one of my own travels.

It's always a pleasure to visit Steinway dealers when in Germany, including the Hamburg location. The pianos are beautiful and a treat - virtually "each and every one".

When asking the Germans about the difference between "American and German Steinways", the answer seems always the same: "you can't compare those pianos"

Every salesman [or owner] I have ever spoken to in Germany, told me exactly same, in fact some were quite emphatic about it.

Which occasionally led me to ask another question. I asked if "they would take a U.S. made Steinway as trade in".

Next time anybody here is in Germany, do ask same question.

Then add that you already happen to own a Grotrian,Bechstein,Schimmel which you would like to use as trade in.

Then watch for answers and compare them with statements or claims allegedly made by U.S. Steinway dealer.

Chances are you'll find out real quick this to be a very different world.....

Norbert

Norbert, would you be so kind as to include what their answers were? (Or buy me tickets to Germany, I'd be glad to find out the answers myself :P).

+1

I think most dealers in Germany have very little personal experience with NY Steinways. While Hamburg Steinways are not uncommon in North America, and enjoy a certain cachet here, the opposite does not hold true in Europe, deserved or not.

The answers are very much predicatble: 'not interested' or 'I'll take it a much lower price as it normally would go with a N.A. dealer'.

There are two reasons for that:

1. In general European dealers - also Steiwnay dealers - do not hav a high esteem for Steinway NY pianos; this may be based on true grounds or may jsut be a prejudgement ("deserved or not" as Jurgen Goering says) but it is however a reallity.

2. For a Steinway NY the general market law applies. The less a brand name is recognized by the public, the less value it has on the used market. Steinway may well be, to some extend, succcessful in making Bostons/Essexes accepted as cousins within the 'Steinway Family', the closer brother/sister - the Steinway NY - is much less known by the general public as a family member. So the dealer who is wondering whether he will trade in a Steinway NY or not knows very well it will be on his showroom floor for quite a time.

schwammerl.

which would be, considering the context, decisive force, to others' points about steinway's marketing 'techniques'.

The word "quality" actually means "trait" or "attribute." One of the modernisms in English that drives me crazy is the use of "quality" as a synonym for "high quality" or "excellence." That is NOT what it means. The word quality has no value judgment attached. To say, for example, that one owns a "quality" piano is utterly meaningless unless one qualifies one's use of the term. A piano can be high quality or low quality, but it cannot be quality.

With this as background, the Lenin quotation changes meaning. . . .

Yes, I agree. And this problem extends to much more than just the word "quality". Whether in casual discussion or in public media, speakers often use words inappropriately, rendering the message vague, ambiguous, or even meaningless.

"A Steinway piano requires about 3,000 hours of labor. Asian pianos require about 1,500 hours. Other pianos use much less. A few manufacturers, like Steinway & Sons, use a rigorous apprentice journeyman system. Factories in the southern U.S. simply assign hourly laborers to do specific jobs."

Subject dealer's webpage: http://www.steinwaypianogallery.net/how-to-buy/piano-myths

"A Steinway & Sons piano requires about 300 hours of labor while the typical piano takes a fraction of that time. Budget pianos are built even faster. Steinway & Sons uses a rigorous apprentice program to insure their exacting methods are passed down from one generation of craftsmen to the next."

Source: http://www.billingspiano.com/services/mythbusting/

Is it puffed up plagiarism, shucking and jiving, or just plain cow plop?

Knowing Steinway NY makes about 3000 pianos anually of which 2500 are grand pianos you do not need to be a mathematician to figure out which quote is wright.

Suppose the first one to be correct how many people would Steinway NY have to employ as to make 2500 grand pianos per year, knowing one person works about 1760 - 1850 hrs per year?

schwammerl.

Plagiarism? Hardly. These two web sites are for separate dealers actually owned by the same family.

Cow plop then?

In the US, sir, we work 2,080 hours per year without overtime.

Guapo,

That's fine, so:

* 2500 grand pianos at 3000hrs/piano = 7,500,000 man hours within a year
* 7,500,000/2080 = 3605 people in production!

schwammerl.

The official company profile from the EDGAR listing says



So someone is lying about how many man-hours it takes to make a Steinway (this is their total workforce, including sales, marketing, HR, etc), or every Steinway employee works 80 hour weeks!

Let's assume that 1/4 of these people (don't forget, this is the worldwide figure) actually make pianos in NY. This is probably a very generous estimate.

That's (425 * 2080) / 2500 = 353.6

I'd say the "300 hour" estimate figure is more correct. Someone just added another zero to make it sound better.

What's a little zero among friends?

That's almost an order of magnitude!

Maybe it's not 3000 labor hours.
Perhaps it's 3000 hours from start to finish.
If not, maybe it's bovine excrement.

Hardly. We pay people for 2080 hours, but between vacations (say average 3 weeks), holidays (average about 5?), and not counting sick leave, etc. Most people probably work only 7.5 hour days (8-5 less lunch max).

So call it 48 weeks @ 37.5 = 1800

And that's without even allowing for web browsing, texting and email (only subtracting the personal ones).

Then there's political correctness training, birthday parties, smoke breaks, potty breaks, etc.

And very little work is done on Mondays or Fridays, almost none on the days before or after holidays.

Then there are days with big sporting events, high profile trials, hurricanes or snow or floods (whether nearby or just interesting).

Office betting pools. Girl Scout cookie days.

By my math we're down to about 200 hours of productive work a year.

So if it takes 300 hours, that's 1.5 man years.

So maybe they were just quoting paid labor not work hours?

I thought Steinway was only making about 700 grands this year. What is their actual production? Which means to me how many customers do they have?

For anyone who has traveled much it becomes quickly apparent that Americans (and us Canadians) work WAY more than most Europeans.
In my travels I've made countless friends from various parts of Europe and the vast majority of them get something like 4-5 weeks MINIMUM vacation by law, and most of them think that we work way too much over here.
I tend to agree.

It’s going to be a lot closer to 300 hours. That Baldwin SF-10 would have been finished up in about 200 hours, give or take.

None of these figures say much about the quality of the finished product. If it takes four hours to hand-assemble a skeleton and 20 minutes to do a better job by machine which is the better foundation on which to build a piano?

While visiting one very high-end piano maker I was told—with obvious pride—that it was going to take that worker about six to eight hours to hand-notch a bridge. Any decent million-dollar machine will do the same or better job in ten minutes or so.

Man (or person) hours in production are a meaningless way judge an instruments quality.

ddf

Unless you're self-employed. Then you get to work more.

ddf

You can't discount the "3,000 hours" figure on that site as a typo, because he goes on to say other manufacturers only take 1,500 hours. This makes it an intentional statement.



Let's assume that the minimum plausible "fully loaded" cost for labor (including employer's contribution for payroll tax, benefits, and insurance) is $20/hour. (This means a salary of about $12/hour, low for the skilled laborers trained through a rigorous system.)

That means the labor cost alone for a Steinway Grand, according to this dealer, is $60,000. If labor alone was the only cost to making a piano, Steinway loses money on every S, M, and O it sells! If the shareholders got wind of this, they'd fire all those laborers and replace them with machines!

The Conn-Selmer company, which is owned by Steinway Musical Instruments Company, Steinway Piano's parent company, pays its workers between $15 and $35 an hour, according this article on cleveland.com. (The article is about a strike there, and how Steinway Musical Instruments is hiring scabs, who I'm sure have gone through the rigorous journeyman process, to replace them.)

The original source of the "3,000 hours" figure seems to come from the site " 4tepiano.com, a dealer of restored Steinway pianos, that appears to be unrelated to the Florida dealer

There is a very clear and professional way to disparage some competitors. Please allow me to demonstrate hypothetical recomendations from one piano professional if asked about several teachers for an ambitious new student:
"Teacher A is wonderful, he's a talented, vibrant, and energetic artist and a rising star locally. He can devote a lot of time with students, and is happy to work with modern styles and new music."
"Teacher B has built a solid reputation and many of her students have won competitions over the last 3 decades. She's a great teacher of traditional music and also has used her networking skills to help former students advance through college and establish music careers."
"Teacher C. Hmmm... Well, Teacher C also teaches piano."


It's easy to tell who's good and who isn't. And not a single insulting word has been said.

Oh, come on! Don't be so obvious about pushing Story & Clark.. It says on your web site that "Story and Clark has very good pianos built in China by Heintzmann." You're just trying to disguise a point of emphasis as updated information. I also noticed a mention that QRS, like Steinway, is a company that has found its niche.

By any chance are you selling Story & Clark pianos with the QES Pianomation strip factory-installed?





With all due respect, you're either deaf or just trying to throw a wrench into Chinese piano production with this comment. Essex is as much a private label as Suzuki. Steinway doesn't make Essex, but only Steinway sells it. Costco doesn't make Suzuki. It's made wherever Suzuki happens to be shopping its contracts this month. I don't think Costco is even selling private label acoustic pianos at this time. You might be sending people on a fool's errand. Actually, you'd be doing that even if I'm wrong and Costco has some in stock.

I think it would be much better advice to recommend Essex. Steinway's piano DNA in every Essex is superior to Costco's piano DMA in every Suzuki. It's a fact!



Thrill,

I don't think Greg is saying things about the competition here. He's just sorting through the also-rans. Steinway acknowledges no one as a competitor. That's how it plays the game. I don't think you'll get much of a rise out of outraged Steinway competitor dealers here either because they also know how the game is played -- more like Australian rules football than the gentleman's lawn bowling tournament that many members here feel would be more appropriate.

With 40 years in piano retail, I'm sure that Greg is pretty flexible on all this stuff. If he had to go back to selling Bösendorfer, he could come up with something better than "Buy a Bosie. It's obscure and overpriced."

William,

Are you here saying with that you do not believe in the 'designed by Steinway' story or at least you do not believe the Essexes contain significant Steinway design elements?

My definition of a stencil has always been: a simple rebadge of an existing product fromanother manufacturer. As soon as important design elements are changed/added or the design is new but production is outsourced to an OEM, I do no longer define it a stencil.

However I must admit that personally I found it at least always very strange that some years ago Steiwnay could step over so swiftly for the production from YC to PR, adding in one stroke a bunch of new upright and grand models! They either must have at Steinway quite a bunch of designers or these designers must be extremely productive!



But Steinway does include benchark data in their corporate reports. With this I do not say that what they wright is correct - on the contrary - it looks more like a viewpoint from a self-satisfied manufacturer. However continuously underestimating your competitors on the longer term can be dangerous [ see e.g. page 8 of the link below]

Steinway Musical Instruments, Inc. Management Presentaion 2011

schwammerl.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics: in 2010 the average number of hours worked per employee in the US is just under 1800. Very few nations' workers work more hours annually. Workers in most European countries work substantially less. The number in the US is quite a bit higher for full time people (subtracting out part time labor). I could find the exact number if I looked, but, I think the average annual hours worked per full time worker is in the neighborhood of 2200 hours.

The notion that a Steinway piano takes 3,000 labor hours is so dang funny. Really, you have to laugh. Anyone who wrote that bit of nonsense into his website .... well, careless would be too polite a term. That's bad arithmetic of a colossal order. I would imagine that average compensation costs at Steinway easily top $35 per hour (salary, benefits, FICA). On the other hand, when your interest is furthered by NOT knowing the facts .... you put silly stuff in public view.

No, I don't question the Steinway design elements in Essex pianos, but Essex is a private label piano. Steinway doesn't build it, but it is the exclusive seller.

IMO Essex is representative of better Chinese pianos, but there is a Steinway price premium attached to an Essex. One way (not the only way) for a retailer to confront a shopper who is concerned about that premium is to suggest that the customer is more concerned about price than value. Greg's suggestion that those whose main concern is price should buy a Costco/Suzuki is intended to embarrass that shopper so that he will step up and pay more for Steinway 'value'. There's nothing novel about that approach, and I assume Greg has found that it works wit his usual customer base, but I don't think it's good form for a professional retailer to advise any shopper to go buy a Costco/Suzuki. For the same money a shopper can get a better piano. Greg can play dealer mind games without stopping that far.

My point is that Greg's comments on any other piano brands should not be taken all that seriously. He is not sizing up the competition. He's just sneering at it by putting his own bag of dirty tricks into print. His local competition can take that as a cue to do likewise.

Personally, I can't even relate to his comment that what separates genuine Steinway pianos from those he characterizes as second-rate is the dynamic range. There is no shortage of dynamic range in most European brands. The range of tonal colors that a Steinway can extract from its dynamic range is a much better selling point.

I don't want to get sucked into this thread because, as Sophial pointed out, the discussion here is not about Steinway. It's about one retailer trying to sell his pianos into his local market. The commentary on his web site would in no way prevent me from visiting his establishment or even being his customer. His pianos would be the determinant, not his obviously distorted map of the market.

in the 3000 hour figure he must be counting the hours it takes for the wood to age



just in case there is some confusion, my original post wrt "quantity is not synonymous with quality" was a reply to the dealer's post implying that high quantity was related to high quality. stating the obvious didn't seem necessary, assuming this to be an audience capable of perceiving the implication without becoming pedantic.

regarding the lenin quote -- if, in the context of war (or any aggressive behavior for that matter) there is a quality to quantity, i defined it as decisive/overwhelming force, as put forth from sun tzu thru the powell doctrine; any force seeking to conquer via overwhelming odds. a case can be made that steinway has been successful deploying this strategy to maintain its stranglehold on concert halls, schools and artists.

For sure it is about one specific dealer, still it surprises me that Steinway NY allows this to happen knowing it is assumed they normally keep a strict control over dealers: pricing discipline, prep obligations (?)..

In Europe all official Steinway dealer use the same web lay-out, presumably imposed by Steinway Hamburg.

schwammerl.

This seems silly, especially if the content is also that rigorously centralized. That kind of top down control may avoid little problems like a rogue dealer spouting nonsense (as his opinion, of course) that hurts the brand name, but it also throws away every dealer's local knowledge of his/her own market. There are sensible intermediate approaches between one-size-fits-all and complete dealer freedom.

absolutely.. most people are quick to notice negativity.. i hope at least. Steinways should not need to be built up in this way.. they are indeed fine pianos. I visit our dealership in town and invariably they have a new guy who pounces upon me (not literally) and gives me the rundown. Sometimes however, i get a really nice dealer with some time and he points out the wondrous octave in the rebuilt M.. or something else equally intriguing. They have a wonderful showroom.

This is an endless conversation. Even if the dealer simply states to the customer that his product is the best and then the customer comes to you and asks you, "Is it true that the other dealer is the best?" You will be forced to say that he is not. Of if you say that he is, you will be loosing a potential sale.

The only time when "bad mouthing" between dealers is going to stop, is when all the pianos are going to be standardized to be made the same. More than it, if all pianos are going to be the same, there will be no dealers. Everyone will be buying a piano online, or will not need anyone to explain why their product is better.

My opinion,

Educating and bad mouthing are not the same thing. Many times I have told someone that the piano they are considering elsewhere is comparable to what they are seeing at our place and if they bought that piano they would be happy.

Sometimes those people buy those pianos.

Other times I am able to direct them to a piano that I can show in concrete terms is a finer quality instrument. Sometimes those people buy our offering instead.

This is doing what is best for my customer. Full Disclosure - we are an unusual operation. We may have twenty or so brands on the showroom floor at any given time, and therefore more chance to have a competitive offering. But I know stores that carry only two lines that do the same thing.

Bottom Line - Owners and managers set the tone for how a particular business functions in every element of operations, including how they train their people to sell.

Badmouthing is the result of a deliberate decision.

I think there are plenty of answers between those two.

This is a question you pose to someone you trust.
. . . "Is it true that the other dealer is the best?"
I'd avoid asking any question of someone whose answer will be suspect.

This a loaded, and really unfair question to ask anyone IMO.

A question like this seems evident that they really don't trust that person, and are only trying to put them in a corner. Better to do your own homework, because you probably won't get a straight answer, even from an honest person. When I'm asked something like this, my reply is simply "I try to do my best."

Taking the time to do your own research is still the best way. Too few people do these days, and end up blaming everyone else when things go wrong.

Would you mind giving us few examples of possible answers?

I'd say...

"They are fine people at the other dealer but our goal is delighted customers."

It's a "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question.

"At this dealership we tell customers what's good about the pianos we sell. We don't feel bad mouthing the competition is appropriate."

I don't have any problems with people telling their honest opinions about their competitor's products.

How do you know they're honest? Because you want to believe?

An old aphorism seems to govern all too much sales behavior: A fool and his money .....

Neither do I - as long as those "honest opinions" aren't "lies."

A local dealer used to feed me the most incredible BS about a certain Tier One piano - but when he began to carry the brand a couple of years later his tune changed dramatically.

Curious what that could have been.

Willing to share? [don't need to mention name..]

Norbert

Like a lot of salesmen Greg seems to be full of complete BS ...... just my opinion of course

Since there are just a handful of dealers in the Phoenix area, I'd rather not be specific !!!!

Well, we all know there's only one Tier One piano--at least according to the website that started this thread--and the only reason people sell other pianos is because they can't get a St**nw*y dealership!

(Greetings from Hawaii! Here we are on our rented Segways at Diamond Head. It's the best way to spend Thanksgiving.)

When the client asks you about other dealer's credibility. You understand that this person "customer" is trying to find out the truth not only about the quality of the piano, but about the whole operation of the dealership. From my point of you, you have to release all information you know about the dealer to the client, if you are asked to do so. For instance if you are aware that this particular dealer claims that he has a restoration facility and you know for a fact that he doesn't. It would be best to tell the client that he was lied to, it would be ethical to do so.

If this dealer is selling lemons (pianos), and you know it. You have to disclose it to the client as well. This would not be considered as "bad mouthing", but more than that it will help your client not to be caught in a mousetrap.

Bewildered what any dealer could possibly B.S. about another tier one piano being in same group.

Incidentally someone in Phoenix is claiming on his website his..... tier 1 brand is "above Steinway".

Perhaps should read again here:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/44.html

Norbert

so why complain about piano dealerships if everybody lies and no one can tell if they're honest anyway?

He's probably referring to NY Steinway which account for most of the Steinways sold in the U.S.

Well, if you have actually been reading this thread, you will have noticed that quite a number of us have come down pretty hard on Mr. Billings for a number of things. First and foremost, he bashes the competition. Perhaps you don't mind this sales approach, thinking it "honest." Most of the rest of us understand the tactic as a mechanism for persuading people who have very little of their own information. Suggestible people are relatively easy prey for what a lot of us here think is a disreputable tactic. The tactic persists because it probably works on enough customers, even if it loses others.

The problem with this particular website goes further than mere negativity. It is riddled with errors, and filled with mere innuendo lacking any evidence. Even where the material has some basis in fact -- the artist program does lead professionals to play on Steinways most of the time -- the inference from this that everybody else is second rate is a leap of logic into the absurd. As many have argued, Steinway's near monopoly position on the concert stage is a function of many things, but it is clearly NOT a result of Steinway pianos being demonstrably better than those second tier European instruments.

So this is why many of us have "complained." Actually, I think we have skewered this little webvertisment rather humorously.


P.S. I have dealt with sales people who have not trashed other makers. A number of them post here.

I don't really care who makes the piano as long as the super structure is sound & the plate is solid(prefer sand cast to vacuum cast plates)The essential item is the soul of the piano is, the soundboard and the way it was assembled and set up. I have installed hammers & bass strings in Young Changs, Samicks, Yamaha's and Kawais. Many (not all) of the OEM parts on the pianos in question make the piano sound like its trying to produce the sound of shattering glass but... the soundboards would sing like St. Olafs Choir.(Minn) when given a hammer and bass string transplant.
Recently, I played a white 6 ft Young chang, 10 years old, about 3 weeks ago in San Diego at Acme Piano(Paul Robinsons shop) and the hammers were decent. It had a beautiful Sitka Spruce board with sustain for days in the melody range.
Such improvements are possible on these instruments. Pianos are about the quality of music and the way an instrument engages the player and hearer alike.
So the Snarky Steinway dealer forgot this, smearing everyone in his path. He probably runs his whole life like that.
Dale

People ask "Why do politicians air negative ads?" They generally are disliked by the voters, but one fact remains, they work. Drop a bomb on the competition right before election day and true or not, the doubt you can create can boost you to election. Perhaps the same is true for piano sales. A buyer might be about to purchase brand X and is out to make sure they are choosing wisely, when all of a sudden, dealer Y drops a bomb on brand X. If done skillfully with tact, I bet it works more often than not.

I don’t think this particular Steinway dealer is the prince of darkness nor do I think his advertising marks any particular reach toward grace. But as advertising it works because if you are inclined buy a Steinway, his efforts will make you feel good about buying a Steinway.

It also uncovers how insecure people are about their own purchases and dealerships. And the only way to fight someone else’s trash talking, of course, is to throw a bit of your own. No one, after all, wants to feel belittled or small-minded because they didn’t purchase or sell a new Steinway.

I’m reminded of a poster who proudly purchased some obscure German piano, trumpeted about it somewhat until he discovered it was ranked second by Larry Fine, then to cover his embarrassment he ranted about how inaccurate Fine’s assessments were, but made sure when he purchased his next obscure German piano it was unassailably perched atop the Fine approved hill.

So. Marketing works. And everyone clings to their own little piece of it to rationalize their purchase and taste. This board is well-known for its Steinway public burnings, again probably out of some base insecurity and lack of Steinway dealers, but it’s funny to see the witch hunt throw its net to Florida while often ignoring the same ridiculous statements from Piano World House dealers . . . and of course some of these dealers smell Steinway blood and can’t seem to help themselves from getting an easy kick in.

As for accuracy (after all, isn't this an advertisement?), it could be tightened up a bit, updated, and it might help to adjust the statement about SMC being the modern Aeolian, gathering up defunct piano companies in its trick bag, especially in light of Samick’s current position at Steinway.

The few retailers who post here take full advantage of this brand snobbery. And the rebuilders are just as bad often questioning Steinway’s current philosophy while trading on the Steinway name, proudly standing as the true saviors of Steinway’s legacy. That some of them appear more acrobatic and smooth talking than this particular dealer makes the artifice no less glaring.

Mike

...speaking of the "Prince of Darkness".

Marketing is one thing. Outright lies are another. Like 3,000 labor hours are put into each Steinway.

I do think Mike Carr hit the nail on the head; the purpose is to reassure customers that they made the right decision, and not necessarily to entice customers who are in the market for a Bösendorfer or Fazioli to get a Steinway instead.

“Marge, it takes two to lie - one to lie, and one to listen." -Homer Simpson

I do not think that it shows confidence in one's brand when a dealer resorts to trashing other brands in order to sell his or her brand. To the contrary. It shows that the dealer is unwilling to allow his or her pianos to speak for themselves; clearly, such a dealer is afraid that his or her pianos will not be able to compete without all the verbal accompaniment. The fact that these trash-talking dealers are trying to keep their prospects from even trying out other brands speaks for itself. They clearly think that their pianos are inferior, if they are so terrified of their customers trying out the alternatives.

I do not like it when salesmen trash other dealerships and piano brands as part of trying to scare me into buying their pianos--because that is precisely what it is.

BTW, I do not like negative political campaigns, either, and I think poorly of my fellow citizens who conduct them, and perhaps even more poorly of my fellow citizens who allow them to influence their decisions.

Briefly stated, dealers who trash other dealership and other brands show the following:

1. They think that their customers are idiots whom they can scare into buying a piano for the wrong reasons.

2. They think that they can persuade their customers to buy pianos for reasons that have nothing to do with the pianos themselves.

3. They think that their pianos cannot speak for themselves. They are so insecure about their pianos that they feel they must rely on factors other than the quality of their pianos to sell them.

My less than two cents.

+1

The industry suffers from ever decreasing transparency this involving many brands from virtually all continents and countries today.

One of the problems for manufacturers seems to be how to stay 100% "above board" when building several lines of pianos, all of which are competing against a multitude of comparable others.

Interestingly enough those who stick to one single line of quality, including those among the Germans, are doing very well in today's market. Those also need to do the least of "bad-mouthing" against others, dealers included

Thanks to sites like this, people are getting more hip about what's going on out there and hopefully will be in a position to make a better decision for themselves in the end.

As they say, "bad story - good ending".....

Norbert

I think you have misunderstood me. My posting was not in defense of whoever it is that wrote those things on the website - it's abundantly clear from this thread that the person who wrote it is at best ill informed. However my point remains in that if someone honestly thinks less of their competition for what they think are very good reasons (regardless of the factual accuracy), then I feel that sharing this information with their customers is not at all offensive nor justified to be reduced to the label of sales tactic. For example, if someone now asks you for your opinion of this Steinway dealer, are you now obligated, by some code of chivalry, to not mention anything about the factual inaccuracies on their website?

Speaking of which, I can't imagine the existence of this very thread being good for said Steinway dealer's reputation, nor perhaps for Steinway itself.

I think one issue the dealer is trying to address is the question that a high-end non-playing client may ask: "If Steinway is the best, how come other pianos cost 50% more?"



I found this dealer's website when I was googling for a Florida Fazioli dealer and laughed out loud when I saw this! They may or may not be overpriced, but they're taken very seriously, of course. (As are Yamaha CF and S, Shigeru Kawai, Estonia, etc, and many other non-Steinway brands.)


For the person who wants to purchase 'the most expensive piano,' and there are customers like that, Steinway has nothing to offer them! This is a bad reason to design a product, of course, but it seems this dealer put this statement there to foster some Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt in the minds of this class of customer. I think he can come up with better arguments. This one is comical in its futility.

Thrill,

Fazioli and Bosendorfer may cost 50% more on paper but in reality discounts are steep. A few years ago in the bay area the Fazioli dealer would spot you 20% off if you just brushed by the piano and another 10% if they said you were a piano teacher. The Bosendorfer dealer at the time 30% or 40% discount was not unheard of. He sold a lot of pianos. So basically, even with the lopsided euro and transportation factored in, if you were looking at a B they could either match the price on their seven footers or get within spitting distance . . .

As far as this particular website I see nothing remarkable as far as bad mouthing or lying, kind of muted compared to what goes on around here. Still, there’s plenty on the website to [censored] off anyone who isn’t in love with Steinway. The way Mason and Hamlin and Charles Walter are dismissed likely stings, “Our domestic piano industry, except for Steinway has practically vanished. A few boutique builders still exist, but rely on other suppliers for critical parts and processes.”

But when gets right down to it, whether you hate them or not, Steinway has attained a singularity, both in its dominance of the concert stage and the array of Steinway clones manufactured over the years, both new pianos from other makers and rebuilt Steinways, depending on whether you’re trading on the sound or the Steinway name.

Even Bosendorfer has jumped on the Steinway gravy train (such as it is) to some extent. The last few I played seemed to be emulating the Steinway sound as far as projection and tonal color. Kinda sad in a way. You got to ask yourself, Why waste money on a fake Steinway when the real thing is a little cheaper?

Mike

Mike,

Do you have other examples in print on dealers' web pages that makes this one look tame and mild? We could always throw some rocks at a few more dealers if their brand trashing is of the same ilk.

The examples I'm aware of came from low end peddlers who preyed on penny pinche .... ah, the price conscious. The late and unlamented (and bankrupt) piano superstore comes to mind.

But I would be interested to see the many examples of web puffery out there that allow you to call this one tame in comparison to "what goes on." Most of the examples I have seen are puffery for the brands carried, not transparently false attacks on the competition.

The one "higher end" firm I'm aware of that put out nonsense was Petrof, with their rather absurd pursuit of CAFIM standards. But that was at a higher level of decision making than the dealership that meets individual customers.

In addition, this fellow in Florida represents a larger corporation that might find these web shenanigans unhelpful to the larger corporate image.

The B isn't 7'. It's 6'11". For a 7' Steinway, you'd need a Hamburg C.

Certainly Steinway and Bösendorfer both make some excellent pianos. But they are designed differently and sound very different. There are pianos, like the Yamaha S--a very nice piano--that probably are meant to capture Steinways tonal design. But not Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Fazioli, Blunther, etc.,

But the statement that amused me was that nobody takes these high end pianos "seriously". That's simply hogwash.

No Bosendorfer dealer interested in staying in business can match the price of a new B with the equivalent Bosendorfer at regular wholesale. Why? The Bosendorfers take longer to make and use more expensive materials! If I wanted to continue in the style of the referenced Steinway dealer I'd say it's soundboard quality spruce in the rim compared to plywood!

A lot of us are offended by the tone and content of the website quoted at the beginning of this thread. If you have equivalent examples, please share them.

To say new Bosendorfers sound like Steinways means you need to spend more time playing new Bosendorfers.

Mike Carr, How much turkey have you been eating?

.

Hey PD,

I wasn’t talking about more severe examples on websites but thinking that this dealer in regard to badmouthing, purposeful midleading, and rough-shod marketing comes off as Mary Poppins compared to some of the piano world dealers like Mr. Bamboozle, Mr. Flim Flam, and Mr. Steprightup.

I also don’t understand horse collaring and imposing the ridiculously small minded piano world ethic on some dealer who doesn’t even post here. Because he doesn’t show the proper respect to Bosendorfer and Fazioli? Come on, that’s just silly. It’s not only self-indulgent, it’s stalking.

Boseric,

Getting a brand new 7 foot Bosendorfer for less than a brand new B without the dealer going out of business happens often enough. Think deep discount.

Also, I didn’t say Bosendorfer sounded like Steinway. I said they are trying to sound like Steinway. Big difference. They’re still Bosendorfers, unfortunately, but their emphasis on the American sound has been common knowledge for the past few years, especially the seven foot models. Didn’t you get the memo?

“The rush to sell to Americans has caused some European companies to reconsider the tonal designs of their instruments and to redesign them for better sound projection, tonal color, and sustain — that is, to sound more like American Steinways. Considering that some of these companies are five or six generations old and have redesigned their pianos about that many times in 150 years, this degree of activity is unusual.”

Mike

Dear Mike,

I also neglected to get that memo. In fact, if I had received it, I would not have wasted all of the time and expense to send staff to spend over a month in Vienna at the factory and going there myself to learn first hand everything that is different about the Bosendorfer designs.

Your comment above is irresponsible at best, Mike. "Common knowledge" should read "common gossip". You have confused two different factors and you know well enough that the author of your quote was not speaking of Bosendorfer's two new models when he referred to "this degree of activity".

Although the 214 and 280 WERE designed, among many other things, to offer more power than their predessors, the 213 and the 275, they were absolutely not designed to sound like an American piano of any brand.

You could ask the opinion of Charles Pettaway, head of piano at Lincoln University why he chose the Bosendorfer 280 for his new hall. Or ask the German Society of Pennsylvania why they chose the 214 for thier newly redesigned hall. Both choices involved lots of professional input and both choices were made expressly for the differences in performance between these pianos and the new Steinway.

My 2 cents,

I haven't met these three, ..... ah, ....... gentlemen, but I'm sure they exist. The range of human personality is great, and the incentives in retailing do not always bring out the best in people.

But the discussion here is not about sales ethics writ large. It's about one particular set of claims made publicly on the website of a dealer who represents a rather well known and important brand. If you want to say that you have heard worse in person, I'll grant that. But when you raise these archetypical horror stories to diminish the existing written case, that doesn't wash.

Oh, and Mr. Billings now has two posts to his credit. So he is in fact a poster here.

Hey Rich. If that 214 you sold me starts to sound like a Steinway I will demand you upgrade me to an Estonia concert grand immediately.

The Steinway dealer's statements, as referenced in the OP, are mind-boggling, and reflect poorly on both the dealership and on Steinway as his employer. But I can at least figure out their agendas, even though I have no sympathy for them.

Which leaves open a very real question: what is Mike Carr's agenda? I confess to being baffled. I have been hesitating to post this question, fearing that I am about to fall into some trap he has set, but my curiosity has now gotten the better of me.

Mike will answer for himself, but an iconoclast doesn't have to have a hidden agenda. He has reminded us that bashing is a regular part of the sales process, even if most of the bashing never winds up in print. How many times have we had someone here mention the old "Kawai uses plastic parts" gambit. As I explained, I think that isn't really germane to this thread, but it is a bit of context.

About his Bosendorfer and Fazioli comments ...... got me.

I dunno, but Mike's posts seem pretty reasonable to me. I see where he is coming from.

If you want an equivalent from the other side, you can go over to Ori's website and postings here. They are laughable.

While I might not always agree with Mike's opinions I really enjoy reading them. It's what facilitates lively debate and keeps the dealers here on their toes. I'm sure a few have asked that he be banned for this discourse. I say it's necessary for the health of the forum or it would quickly become "Piano Dealers World" as some other dealers I know have called it recently. I would would encourage everyone here (dealers included) to visit several showrooms and listen to what comes out of the mouths of some salesmen. I'm sure Mr. Flimflam could pick up a few pointers, or be transformed by the truth few seem to offer. I think selling a piano is like selling a dream, imbuing some mythical quality in a piano, that in reality is just not there.

While some Americans may agree with the opinions stated on the website, most Europeans would laugh him back to the farm.

Ori and I have "bumped heads" in posts here several times over the years, often on rather unfriendly terms. So, coming to his defense isn't easy.

In re Plowboy's post, I just looked over Ori's website, http://www.allegropianos.com/, and it looks pretty clean to me. In fact, it is quite frank and open it its approach.

Plowboy, if this is just a random cheap shot (as you certainly have taken your share in the past), you should remove you post. If you acutally found his website "laughable", let us all in on the joke.

Plowboy,

I wish you actually provided examples of something that you feel is laughable.
I find it interesting that you choose to mention my name as I did not participate in this thread, or actually any other thread for awhile...

For your convenience and ease of search, just click the link to my website on the bottom of my signature line to search and bring those alleged quotes.

I'll be happy to relate to any quotes you bring.


To demonstrate how easy it is, I just looked at some of your recent posts (from threads I did not participate in) and found telling information of your bias about the subject, apparent zeal to justify certain marketing philosophies... and ease of throwing unsubstantiated accusations at dealers.

I would say that some of the recent examples below not only demonstrate this bias...but may also bring a smile to the face of anyone with basic knowledge of the piano industry.


All the below posts were made by Plowboy within the past month:

Steve,

This thread is about a Steinway dealer's take on his competition, on the surface at least.

If you look at his particular website, while the Steinway dealer does make clear his opinions on various brands, he does not pick out or seem obsessed by any individual dealers.

On the Allegro website, which for your own reasons you are using as both rebuttal to Plowboy and as a model for a frank and open approach(whatever the heck that means), the owner focuses on a competitor by name several times.

The Allegro owner goes on to disavow any current affiliation to the named competitor, but conveniantly leaves the details up to the reader's imagination, going so far as to allude that this competing dealer is selling a "new" piano that is 5 years old.

I don't know whether you want to categorize the Allegro website as laughable or sad or bad-mouthing or educational or gossip or common knowledge.

One thing for certain, I don't recall any piano websites targeting an individual dealership by name, at least not in this fashion.

Mike

Actually Rich - and Mike, correct me if I am wrong, I read Mike's post as a more 'toung-in-cheek' thing. No need to take that too seriously, he's just doing a bit of trolling to get Bose Eric's blood up.

Nobody would ever assume that Bosendorfer was trying to mimic Steinway's design, lol. They are completely different philosophies of sound & design.

Also - I notice this thread evolving more into a dealer vs. consumer thing.

Many industry pros participate here, either publicly, or at least privately. In fact, at one point I heard pianoworld being referred to as dealerworld.

While plowboy may be a little out of line with a blatant unsupported statement, I must admit it's nice to have unfiltered response from folks outside the industry.

While the internet offers us, for the most part, immunity to actual accountability, and the added bonus of hiding behind monikers, it's important to remember that there are real people behind these posts.

Mike,

If you were actually on the side of the consumer... you should be welcoming any disclaimer reducing confusion.

The issue regarding the specific piano you mentioned is not necessarily the fact that the piano represented as 'new' was made in 2005 (or about 6 and a half years ago), nor that there had been significant differences between this piano and current production pianos...and not even the fact that the instrument (in contradiction to what was specifically represented for while on that dealer's website) had no manufacturers warranty according to the manufacturers policy (that such piano's warranty is offered only when sold through an authorized dealer).

It is an issue of consumer's confusion and we felt that due to various reasons there was confusion regarding the matter that merited a disclaimer.

By the way, this disclaimer went up during the summer and it does not mention any dealer's name in spite of your claims).

You gotta be kidding.

Many of the German/Austrian piano makers seem to be doing a fairly brisk business in China today, incidentally a market where mostly Hamburg - not New York Steinways are being sold.

Perhaps these guys should be reminded that by changing their historically grown identity, they could only expected to do a little better in future still....

Norbert