I was looking some other threads here and like it or not Steinway has marketed their brand to the extent that they are perceived as "the" American piano to own new or restored. The number of restorers I've talked to that feel the same as those over at American-Steinway is certainly in the majority.



From a economic standpoint it appears that Steinway has won and how long will it before no one will have even heard of, let alone seen a restored a Sohmer, Weber, Decker etc.? Well if you are talking cars, people sure restore a lot more than just Cadillacs.

It's sad to me that most of these old pianos will end up in the scrap heap in ever increasing numbers in the coming years because they are not Steinways. Even sadder is the prevalant industry view point that Steinways are always superior pianos to Knabe, Chickering, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin.

I understand that the rebuilder is trying to stay in business, but wouldn't it be better in the long run to have real market competition to Steinways? Imagine being able to sell a restored Weber for decent profit? Of course this would mean bucking the massive Steinway propaganda system, and at this point I fear that would be next to impossible.

I assume that the next most commonly restored piano would be Mason&Hamlins.I think some restorers do make money on restoring them, but less profit than Steinway, I'm assuming because of the novelty, for want on a better word, of owning a Steinway, and that people'd pay more for them, instead of other brands.

It'd be nice to have real market competition to Steinway. But it'd be very hard to do this, because everyone knows Steinway, and other brands today are not as famous nor as well known. Unfortunately.

I have spent time playing two rebuilt Mason & Hamlin AA's in my area recently - one is at a dealer (Wells) and the other is at a rebuilder's shop. They were both pretty nice pianos, and priced less than an equivalent Steinway as a rebuild. Like all rebuilds, whether or not they're worthwhile depends largely on the extent and quality of the work done.

Most of the dealers around here do seem to have some sort of rebuilt/refurbished Steinway in their inventory, for whatever reason. Some were done satisfactorily, but relatively few around here are truly "top shelf" rebuilds. As a result, most of the new Tier 1-3 pianos for sale around here sound better, and are being sold at such a low price that they undercut the high-end rebuild market to some extent.

There is a VERY healthy need for solid rebuilders around here to service the inventory of aging and weather-beaten quality grand pianos for institutional use. As things tighten economically, I don't see the need decreasing for this type of service, and the brand of pianos that I see rebuilt expands a bit to include Baldwins and a few high-end European pianos. If you have to choose between spending $115,000 on a new concert grand vs. $30-40,000 for a comprehensive rebuild, I think there are a lot of schools, churches, universities, and recording studios that might assume a little risk and have their instrument rebuilt by someone with a good track record. That's a substantial cost savings.

Most any decent grand piano can have major work done to it as it needs to be done economically. The problem comes from the people, many of them on this board, who claim that you have to replace everything in the piano 15 minutes after it leaves the showroom.

Strings and hammers wear out. Eventually, some other parts do, but not as often as a lot of people claim. If the tuning is tight and the pins are not too big, you do not need to replace the pin block. Soundboards rarely need to be replaced. Wippens, too. You do not need every key balanced within a microgram, and even if it were, it would not last. So why spend money on these things?

The deciding point for me is whether you can buy something new or newer that will come out as good for less money than you would put into an older piano. As so many Asian pianos are so good now, there are fewer pianos where doing major work makes economic sense, but they are still there, and they are not all Steinways.

Swarth,

We currently have a good number of Steinways in our restoration facility, but it is by no means an exclusive brand on our premises. We have also recently rebuilt brands like Chickering, Knabe, Bosendorfer, Mason & Hamlin, George Steck, Henry F. Miller, and others.

If the right model is chosen from any of these brands you have a potential killer instrument. The rub is that less people will consider it and the market value will not match Steinway because they are so well known to this generation.

But pianists buy pianos they love. So the answer to rebuilding these pianos is simple - don't sell a name, sell a great piano.

Great Point Rich.

I like that!

I certainly didn't buy a name, I bought a piano I knew I could eventually love. And I do!

And now, it's kinda cool to own a great piano with almost no name recognition, especially in Canada.

"... Don't sell a name, sell a great piano."

That puts a smile on MY face.

When I purchased my vintage 1978 Yamaha C7, I could tell it had been rebuilt at some point in time. Based on the information I got from the previous owners, a fairly large Pentecostal Church, it was probably a new rebuild when they got it in the early 1990’s.

I did not get a piano tech to inspect it when I bought it… I inspected it myself. I could tell the strings looked good to be about 35 years old, though it had some broken bass strings; you could tell the bridge had been recapped and had new bridge pins. The harp had also been sanded and painted, and still looked good.

When I got it home and pulled the action, the whippens, hammers and shanks all looked fairly new, though the hammers did have a good bit of wear on the strike point; the shank knuckles had some wear, but still in good condition. The whippens and hammers look exactly like the ones on the Renner web site.

And, the work looked like it had been professionally done. The neatness of the felt under the strings, the neatness and consistency of the string coils on the tuning pins and the neatness of the bridge cap all lead me to believe who ever did the rebuild did a good job… but mostly the tone and the touch tells me so.

I figure it has a lot of life left, and I enjoy it immensely.

I figure rebuilding pianos is big business and there is probably a consistent demand for it…

Rick

I restore many other makes but mostly Steinway. The end results of these other brands can often be quite remarkable.

I know I threw alot of stuff out there and perhaps most is self evident. I know that prejudice exists and that the batttle between mind and pocket book is never ending. After all if this Sohmer was as good as a Steinway it would cost a lot more! You might not even consider trying it out. When considering to rebuild one, the costs are about the same (perhaps) but the final value is not. I want to congratulate and encourage those of you who do restore these "lesser" brands and then sell great pianos! I suppose I shouldn't lament so, perhaps every great piano will be saved, without having to spend thousands in restoration to enjoy them presently. What bothers me most is the mentality that these great pianos are inferior instruments just because it does not say Steinway on the fall board, and believe me I've heard it a lot.

I agree with your sentiments, Swarth.

Alas, as much as one might like not to accept, the human mind seems to be set up with a need to attach superstitious meanings to...well most everything. Politicians, Priests(among others) know this. So does Steinway's marketing department...and they have played their hand in a masterful albeit manipulative way.

Its been happening way before we were born, and will continue well after we are gone...
Mystique trumps most everything, because is draws on this powerful bit of evolutionary detritus; the need to attach meaning to things that have no meaning.

Occasionally someone will show up who uses their own brain and senses to make decisions, but hordes of 'em ain't banging down the doors. And, in this case, even when a pianist sits down at a "no-name" instrument, one that is amazing, they will often have a huge inner struggle let go of the expectation that Steinway "means" the ultimate in piano tone...they will have a great deal of trouble paying for and taking that "no-name" home at a price which it deserves.

There is only one factor that trumps mystique, and that is price point...kind of funny, but there you have it. They might take the amazing "no-name" home, but not at transcendent price point. High price point is only accepted if it comes with mystique. It's just mental hardware that we have to deal with...seems a waste, but there you have it.

Jim Ialeggio

I like to rebuild non-Steinway's. The economics are shakier, but the results can be pleasing. In my area, used and 'rebuilt' Steinways are a commodity. Some are sent to China, or Poland or Mexico to be done, many are restrung over the old board with the old bridges and pinblock with inappropriate action parts, but they are all the same price.

I understand how painful it is for someone who fell in love with Sohmer or Weber or Hailun or other piano brands to constantly hear how Steinway piano is valued to be the most superior instrument on the market today. I personally fell in love with Steinway many years ago, by having to restore hundreds of them. I know a lot about Steinway engineering and design of this "mystical" piano.

But don't give up, keep loving your pianos no matter the brand name or what is considered to be cool or trendy. Try to defend your love for the piano, don't worry what others say or what you read in the article. Find the best features of your piano. Present them publically to show everyone their unique side. If you prove that your piano is better than Steinway or the same, it will be your greatest accomplishment.

Dear Gene,

We have met in person and I have toured your shop.

I am sorry but I have to call it the way I see it. If you truly mean this then you need to see some more pianos.... and keep an open mind.

It's that simple.

Rich,

Let's say:
If I fell in love with one woman, and married her. It means for the rest of my life. When you tell me to look for more and keep an open mind. You are saying that I need to keep looking for a better wife?

I don't quite understand what you mean that I need to see more pianos and keep an open mind. I've been in this business for 41 years and restored many piano brands. Don't you think that after having been in this business for so many years, I can say that my favorite piano brand is Steinway, and not because it simply says that on the fallboard of my piano.

Looks like it's time for you to visit my shop again so we can get to know each other a little better.

Of course you can say that. Saying your personal favorite brand of piano is Steinway is fine.



This is quite different, at least to me. The last sentence that I quoted makes your opinion sound as though it were fact. It is not fact, Gene. That was my point.

I know English is not your first language so maybe I misunderstood your intentions somehow. If so, I apologize.

I can understand the feeling you get from playing a wonderful piano, the touch and tone. What I have discovered though is that it varies a great deal from even the same model of piano. One major problem most buyers have is a lack of an objective way to compare. Even here in the Bay Area where grand pianos are relatively common, there is no dealer where one can play several expertly restored pianos of any kind. So as part of my education, curiosity I travel around and play old pianos. Some you can hear potential in, and some, due to just too many variables, you just can't tell. I have yet to play another Chickering 109C to see if it's the model I like or just this piano. I have found a few other models to play, but none compare, but I digress. I went out last week and played a piano that had been partialy restored, it was a 1889 Chickering 106 (the owner had no idea of the scale #). The soundboard was new, the pin block tight, new strings, original ivories, original hammers recently voiced and a case that was about perfect. This piano had seen very little use for it's entire lifetime. While it wasn't perfect, it was every bit as good as most Steinways that I've been able to play. Better? Perhaps, but that will always be in my mind, a matter of opinion, not fact. It's asking price? $2900 and no one is interested. Compare to two Steinways that are sitting at a dealer, unrestored and needed much more work. The A is ~20,000 the B is ~25,000, not that these prices are going to hold up, but still.

1899 106

"It is like throwing money at a car that won’t be worth much in a few years. Why not choose a car that has “prestige” that outlast and has intrinsic value, like a Steinway, the only piano that holds and appreciates consistently over time."

I HATE the car analogy!!

I don't think you can compare pianos to cars at all. Or anything else that I can think of.

Quick question Rich (and everyone): if I have a Chickering or Vose or Wurlizter or some other older well made piano, does a full restoration ever allow me to upgrade my future sale price? In other words, if I spend a substantial amount of money to restore an older non-steinway, can I ever expect to recover most or some of that cost should I sell it 20 years later? Certainly I would if it were a Steinway, but I suspect a George Steck will always been worth only a certain amount no matter how much maintenance and upgrading it gets. But I'm curious as to what you see in the market. Thanks.

It's pure economics gang. It makes little sense to invest a lot of money in something of limited value. The car analogy is apt. You can restore a Fiat or you can restore a Ferrari, or a Corvette vs. a Malibu. The labor is the same. Which will yield a decent resale value. As to the Chickering vs. Steinway thing, I have played lots of Chickerings, but most of their upper registers are not to my liking. Everyone loves to lambast Steinway. Sorry gang, they ARE that good. I have owned and restored many wonderful instruments. Restored, many "lesser" brands rivaled the Steinway sound. It is not the Steinways that are killing off the rebuilds of other brands though. Rather it is the inexpensive Chinese instruments. Why buy used if you can buy new for the same price plus or minus? I am not going to get into a war about quality. I have exhausted that topic on PW forums at length. Suffice to say that shiny sells and we will leave it at that.The market has spoken. I do not regard pianos as an investment, Steinway or otherwise, but if you are at all concerned about resale value after the investment of hard-earned greenbacks, once again, the market has spoken. Buck the trend at your own peril.

Actually restoration of the lesser known quality brands are still thriving in the marketplace. Maybe not to the extent of a commisioned full blown remanufacture as in new soundboard,bridges,ribs,keyset etc. but Masons,Baldwins,Chickerings,Conover Cables,Knabes etc. are still being restored at a good value to the buyer and the restorer. To offset this prejudice of Steinway being the restored piano of choice is the price of these other rebuilt piano(s). These lesser acknowledged quality brands are way less $ NOWADAYS for that token rebuildable "core" piano. Years ago when there were no asian pianos in the marketplace, these rebuildable "core" pianos were much more valuble than now. So....it is the value of these vintage unrestored pianos that have suffered as for FMV not the rebuilt piano. The comprehensive rebuild whether a Steinway or a Kimball is the same $ as for it's actual labor. The brand new decent asian pianos in the marketplace and their pricepoint was cause in fact of this change. There are still many persons that would opt for a high level restored Knabe rather than a new Hailun.
It is almost reached the point whereas I will tell a client that "I will give you the "core"piano for FREE. You just pay for the restoration.

John,

A few comments - Everyone has their preference, so this is my humble opinion. An 1890's 6'4" Chickering that has been properly rebuilt - I love them. I cringe a little reading that they are "inferior" to anything. And some pretty hot players have bought them from me.

Different? yes. Difficult to properly restore? totally. More complex design than was needed? yep, I am there.

I also love the original Knabe pianos. I have said again and again over the years that my very favorite late 19th c. piano might be the 7 ft. Knabe. They were originally chosen to be the performance pianos of Carnegie Hall and they are battleships.



OK, for the unwashed public that wants a piano in their living room, I agree with you. There is no reason to spend more for many amateurs.

But for a professional or an advanced amateur player, a fully rebuilt top quality piano that does not say Steinway on it can still be a valid choice.



Unfortunately, I totally agree with you on this.

Rich,

I completely agree with your sentiments regarding re-manufactures of "other" brands. "Other" brands free me from having to create one and only one sound aesthetic, and allow me to create sounds which explore different tonal colors than S&S targets.

Do you find though, as I have, that the price point on these fine "others" has to be depressed beyond their "value"... meaning the "other" brand, though performing at or above the level of a fine S&S rebuild of comparable size, has to be priced significantly below the S&S?

Jim Ialeggio

Hi Jim
The old adage which is "follow the money" seems to hold true here in my experience. Steinway is the upper echelon choice of the financial societal spectrum and musicians and hence it has ALWAYS sold for more and,... so have its rebuilds, although somewhat depressed at this moment. So like it or not it is what it is. That said
Like you,I love different. Being able to sell a rebuild on a nice American shell is usually part sentimental, part musical and a lot educational effort and some confidence in my ability. A good demonstrator piano always helps to make believers of those making such consideration.
However it is the rare opportunity. I Just bought a 6 ft 1 inch Wissner. Stwy copy. Needs a board Its a copy of a 6 ft 1 inch A-2. Case shape,legs, hard wood rim. We are considering making it the First "Erwins & Sons" piano. Hot Rod soundboard and souped up action etc.
How much might it sell for in reality when done providing it blows the doors off any thing else that size?
What do you guys think think?

Hi Dale,

I'm in the same boat. I've got a Hume 5'10"...S&S O knock off from the turn of the century, before Hume and Steinert split up. Built like a tank...has great potential. Its getting the whole nine yards, new rc&s board, recale, bridges w/ transition bridge, epoxy laminated cap, full WNG stack,key and action re-proportion, keyboard, etc, etc.

Yeah..what do you guys think?

Jim Ialeggio

This is all music to my ears. As the pianos will be music to the ears of the fortunate recipients.

ddf

The short answer is yes. However, there were some spectacular cabinets in some of these "other" brands as well and there are a few people out there who enjoy having something different than their neighbor or friend - especially if it sounds and looks as well... or better than what their neighbor is used to seeing and hearing.

One customer of mine is a noted dentist in our area. He bought a rosewood 5'8" Knabe from me instead of a new Steinway M . He loves to entertain and he enjoys seeing if people know the name when they visit his home. He says that invariably, if people know the name Knabe, than they know something about good pianos. If they do not, he doesn't take their opinions or observations seriously anyway.

I like that!

If you truly want to take it to the optimum level of hand workmanship and craftsmanship in the piano world, you have to acknowledge someone like David Rubenstien whereas building that one off piano from scratch is just truly amazing. Restoration,rescaling etc. is truly one thing but I don't think he gets the recognition justly deserved. He does my new soundboards, bridges and ribs till his ship comes in on his own stuff.