I was looking some other threads here and like it or not Steinway has marketed their brand to the extent that they are perceived as "the" American piano to own new or restored. The number of restorers I've talked to that feel the same as those over at American-Steinway is certainly in the majority.



From a economic standpoint it appears that Steinway has won and how long will it before no one will have even heard of, let alone seen a restored a Sohmer, Weber, Decker etc.? Well if you are talking cars, people sure restore a lot more than just Cadillacs.

It's sad to me that most of these old pianos will end up in the scrap heap in ever increasing numbers in the coming years because they are not Steinways. Even sadder is the prevalant industry view point that Steinways are always superior pianos to Knabe, Chickering, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin.

I understand that the rebuilder is trying to stay in business, but wouldn't it be better in the long run to have real market competition to Steinways? Imagine being able to sell a restored Weber for decent profit? Of course this would mean bucking the massive Steinway propaganda system, and at this point I fear that would be next to impossible.

I assume that the next most commonly restored piano would be Mason&Hamlins.I think some restorers do make money on restoring them, but less profit than Steinway, I'm assuming because of the novelty, for want on a better word, of owning a Steinway, and that people'd pay more for them, instead of other brands.

It'd be nice to have real market competition to Steinway. But it'd be very hard to do this, because everyone knows Steinway, and other brands today are not as famous nor as well known. Unfortunately.

I have spent time playing two rebuilt Mason & Hamlin AA's in my area recently - one is at a dealer (Wells) and the other is at a rebuilder's shop. They were both pretty nice pianos, and priced less than an equivalent Steinway as a rebuild. Like all rebuilds, whether or not they're worthwhile depends largely on the extent and quality of the work done.

Most of the dealers around here do seem to have some sort of rebuilt/refurbished Steinway in their inventory, for whatever reason. Some were done satisfactorily, but relatively few around here are truly "top shelf" rebuilds. As a result, most of the new Tier 1-3 pianos for sale around here sound better, and are being sold at such a low price that they undercut the high-end rebuild market to some extent.

There is a VERY healthy need for solid rebuilders around here to service the inventory of aging and weather-beaten quality grand pianos for institutional use. As things tighten economically, I don't see the need decreasing for this type of service, and the brand of pianos that I see rebuilt expands a bit to include Baldwins and a few high-end European pianos. If you have to choose between spending $115,000 on a new concert grand vs. $30-40,000 for a comprehensive rebuild, I think there are a lot of schools, churches, universities, and recording studios that might assume a little risk and have their instrument rebuilt by someone with a good track record. That's a substantial cost savings.

Most any decent grand piano can have major work done to it as it needs to be done economically. The problem comes from the people, many of them on this board, who claim that you have to replace everything in the piano 15 minutes after it leaves the showroom.

Strings and hammers wear out. Eventually, some other parts do, but not as often as a lot of people claim. If the tuning is tight and the pins are not too big, you do not need to replace the pin block. Soundboards rarely need to be replaced. Wippens, too. You do not need every key balanced within a microgram, and even if it were, it would not last. So why spend money on these things?

The deciding point for me is whether you can buy something new or newer that will come out as good for less money than you would put into an older piano. As so many Asian pianos are so good now, there are fewer pianos where doing major work makes economic sense, but they are still there, and they are not all Steinways.

Swarth,

We currently have a good number of Steinways in our restoration facility, but it is by no means an exclusive brand on our premises. We have also recently rebuilt brands like Chickering, Knabe, Bosendorfer, Mason & Hamlin, George Steck, Henry F. Miller, and others.

If the right model is chosen from any of these brands you have a potential killer instrument. The rub is that less people will consider it and the market value will not match Steinway because they are so well known to this generation.

But pianists buy pianos they love. So the answer to rebuilding these pianos is simple - don't sell a name, sell a great piano.

Great Point Rich.

I like that!

I certainly didn't buy a name, I bought a piano I knew I could eventually love. And I do!

And now, it's kinda cool to own a great piano with almost no name recognition, especially in Canada.

"... Don't sell a name, sell a great piano."

That puts a smile on MY face.

When I purchased my vintage 1978 Yamaha C7, I could tell it had been rebuilt at some point in time. Based on the information I got from the previous owners, a fairly large Pentecostal Church, it was probably a new rebuild when they got it in the early 1990’s.

I did not get a piano tech to inspect it when I bought it… I inspected it myself. I could tell the strings looked good to be about 35 years old, though it had some broken bass strings; you could tell the bridge had been recapped and had new bridge pins. The harp had also been sanded and painted, and still looked good.

When I got it home and pulled the action, the whippens, hammers and shanks all looked fairly new, though the hammers did have a good bit of wear on the strike point; the shank knuckles had some wear, but still in good condition. The whippens and hammers look exactly like the ones on the Renner web site.

And, the work looked like it had been professionally done. The neatness of the felt under the strings, the neatness and consistency of the string coils on the tuning pins and the neatness of the bridge cap all lead me to believe who ever did the rebuild did a good job… but mostly the tone and the touch tells me so.

I figure it has a lot of life left, and I enjoy it immensely.

I figure rebuilding pianos is big business and there is probably a consistent demand for it…

Rick

I restore many other makes but mostly Steinway. The end results of these other brands can often be quite remarkable.

I know I threw alot of stuff out there and perhaps most is self evident. I know that prejudice exists and that the batttle between mind and pocket book is never ending. After all if this Sohmer was as good as a Steinway it would cost a lot more! You might not even consider trying it out. When considering to rebuild one, the costs are about the same (perhaps) but the final value is not. I want to congratulate and encourage those of you who do restore these "lesser" brands and then sell great pianos! I suppose I shouldn't lament so, perhaps every great piano will be saved, without having to spend thousands in restoration to enjoy them presently. What bothers me most is the mentality that these great pianos are inferior instruments just because it does not say Steinway on the fall board, and believe me I've heard it a lot.

I agree with your sentiments, Swarth.

Alas, as much as one might like not to accept, the human mind seems to be set up with a need to attach superstitious meanings to...well most everything. Politicians, Priests(among others) know this. So does Steinway's marketing department...and they have played their hand in a masterful albeit manipulative way.

Its been happening way before we were born, and will continue well after we are gone...
Mystique trumps most everything, because is draws on this powerful bit of evolutionary detritus; the need to attach meaning to things that have no meaning.

Occasionally someone will show up who uses their own brain and senses to make decisions, but hordes of 'em ain't banging down the doors. And, in this case, even when a pianist sits down at a "no-name" instrument, one that is amazing, they will often have a huge inner struggle let go of the expectation that Steinway "means" the ultimate in piano tone...they will have a great deal of trouble paying for and taking that "no-name" home at a price which it deserves.

There is only one factor that trumps mystique, and that is price point...kind of funny, but there you have it. They might take the amazing "no-name" home, but not at transcendent price point. High price point is only accepted if it comes with mystique. It's just mental hardware that we have to deal with...seems a waste, but there you have it.

Jim Ialeggio

I like to rebuild non-Steinway's. The economics are shakier, but the results can be pleasing. In my area, used and 'rebuilt' Steinways are a commodity. Some are sent to China, or Poland or Mexico to be done, many are restrung over the old board with the old bridges and pinblock with inappropriate action parts, but they are all the same price.

I understand how painful it is for someone who fell in love with Sohmer or Weber or Hailun or other piano brands to constantly hear how Steinway piano is valued to be the most superior instrument on the market today. I personally fell in love with Steinway many years ago, by having to restore hundreds of them. I know a lot about Steinway engineering and design of this "mystical" piano.

But don't give up, keep loving your pianos no matter the brand name or what is considered to be cool or trendy. Try to defend your love for the piano, don't worry what others say or what you read in the article. Find the best features of your piano. Present them publically to show everyone their unique side. If you prove that your piano is better than Steinway or the same, it will be your greatest accomplishment.

Dear Gene,

We have met in person and I have toured your shop.

I am sorry but I have to call it the way I see it. If you truly mean this then you need to see some more pianos.... and keep an open mind.

It's that simple.

Rich,

Let's say:
If I fell in love with one woman, and married her. It means for the rest of my life. When you tell me to look for more and keep an open mind. You are saying that I need to keep looking for a better wife?

I don't quite understand what you mean that I need to see more pianos and keep an open mind. I've been in this business for 41 years and restored many piano brands. Don't you think that after having been in this business for so many years, I can say that my favorite piano brand is Steinway, and not because it simply says that on the fallboard of my piano.

Looks like it's time for you to visit my shop again so we can get to know each other a little better.

Of course you can say that. Saying your personal favorite brand of piano is Steinway is fine.



This is quite different, at least to me. The last sentence that I quoted makes your opinion sound as though it were fact. It is not fact, Gene. That was my point.

I know English is not your first language so maybe I misunderstood your intentions somehow. If so, I apologize.

I can understand the feeling you get from playing a wonderful piano, the touch and tone. What I have discovered though is that it varies a great deal from even the same model of piano. One major problem most buyers have is a lack of an objective way to compare. Even here in the Bay Area where grand pianos are relatively common, there is no dealer where one can play several expertly restored pianos of any kind. So as part of my education, curiosity I travel around and play old pianos. Some you can hear potential in, and some, due to just too many variables, you just can't tell. I have yet to play another Chickering 109C to see if it's the model I like or just this piano. I have found a few other models to play, but none compare, but I digress. I went out last week and played a piano that had been partialy restored, it was a 1889 Chickering 106 (the owner had no idea of the scale #). The soundboard was new, the pin block tight, new strings, original ivories, original hammers recently voiced and a case that was about perfect. This piano had seen very little use for it's entire lifetime. While it wasn't perfect, it was every bit as good as most Steinways that I've been able to play. Better? Perhaps, but that will always be in my mind, a matter of opinion, not fact. It's asking price? $2900 and no one is interested. Compare to two Steinways that are sitting at a dealer, unrestored and needed much more work. The A is ~20,000 the B is ~25,000, not that these prices are going to hold up, but still.

1899 106

"It is like throwing money at a car that won’t be worth much in a few years. Why not choose a car that has “prestige” that outlast and has intrinsic value, like a Steinway, the only piano that holds and appreciates consistently over time."

I HATE the car analogy!!

I don't think you can compare pianos to cars at all. Or anything else that I can think of.

Quick question Rich (and everyone): if I have a Chickering or Vose or Wurlizter or some other older well made piano, does a full restoration ever allow me to upgrade my future sale price? In other words, if I spend a substantial amount of money to restore an older non-steinway, can I ever expect to recover most or some of that cost should I sell it 20 years later? Certainly I would if it were a Steinway, but I suspect a George Steck will always been worth only a certain amount no matter how much maintenance and upgrading it gets. But I'm curious as to what you see in the market. Thanks.

It's pure economics gang. It makes little sense to invest a lot of money in something of limited value. The car analogy is apt. You can restore a Fiat or you can restore a Ferrari, or a Corvette vs. a Malibu. The labor is the same. Which will yield a decent resale value. As to the Chickering vs. Steinway thing, I have played lots of Chickerings, but most of their upper registers are not to my liking. Everyone loves to lambast Steinway. Sorry gang, they ARE that good. I have owned and restored many wonderful instruments. Restored, many "lesser" brands rivaled the Steinway sound. It is not the Steinways that are killing off the rebuilds of other brands though. Rather it is the inexpensive Chinese instruments. Why buy used if you can buy new for the same price plus or minus? I am not going to get into a war about quality. I have exhausted that topic on PW forums at length. Suffice to say that shiny sells and we will leave it at that.The market has spoken. I do not regard pianos as an investment, Steinway or otherwise, but if you are at all concerned about resale value after the investment of hard-earned greenbacks, once again, the market has spoken. Buck the trend at your own peril.

Actually restoration of the lesser known quality brands are still thriving in the marketplace. Maybe not to the extent of a commisioned full blown remanufacture as in new soundboard,bridges,ribs,keyset etc. but Masons,Baldwins,Chickerings,Conover Cables,Knabes etc. are still being restored at a good value to the buyer and the restorer. To offset this prejudice of Steinway being the restored piano of choice is the price of these other rebuilt piano(s). These lesser acknowledged quality brands are way less $ NOWADAYS for that token rebuildable "core" piano. Years ago when there were no asian pianos in the marketplace, these rebuildable "core" pianos were much more valuble than now. So....it is the value of these vintage unrestored pianos that have suffered as for FMV not the rebuilt piano. The comprehensive rebuild whether a Steinway or a Kimball is the same $ as for it's actual labor. The brand new decent asian pianos in the marketplace and their pricepoint was cause in fact of this change. There are still many persons that would opt for a high level restored Knabe rather than a new Hailun.
It is almost reached the point whereas I will tell a client that "I will give you the "core"piano for FREE. You just pay for the restoration.

John,

A few comments - Everyone has their preference, so this is my humble opinion. An 1890's 6'4" Chickering that has been properly rebuilt - I love them. I cringe a little reading that they are "inferior" to anything. And some pretty hot players have bought them from me.

Different? yes. Difficult to properly restore? totally. More complex design than was needed? yep, I am there.

I also love the original Knabe pianos. I have said again and again over the years that my very favorite late 19th c. piano might be the 7 ft. Knabe. They were originally chosen to be the performance pianos of Carnegie Hall and they are battleships.



OK, for the unwashed public that wants a piano in their living room, I agree with you. There is no reason to spend more for many amateurs.

But for a professional or an advanced amateur player, a fully rebuilt top quality piano that does not say Steinway on it can still be a valid choice.



Unfortunately, I totally agree with you on this.

Rich,

I completely agree with your sentiments regarding re-manufactures of "other" brands. "Other" brands free me from having to create one and only one sound aesthetic, and allow me to create sounds which explore different tonal colors than S&S targets.

Do you find though, as I have, that the price point on these fine "others" has to be depressed beyond their "value"... meaning the "other" brand, though performing at or above the level of a fine S&S rebuild of comparable size, has to be priced significantly below the S&S?

Jim Ialeggio

Hi Jim
The old adage which is "follow the money" seems to hold true here in my experience. Steinway is the upper echelon choice of the financial societal spectrum and musicians and hence it has ALWAYS sold for more and,... so have its rebuilds, although somewhat depressed at this moment. So like it or not it is what it is. That said
Like you,I love different. Being able to sell a rebuild on a nice American shell is usually part sentimental, part musical and a lot educational effort and some confidence in my ability. A good demonstrator piano always helps to make believers of those making such consideration.
However it is the rare opportunity. I Just bought a 6 ft 1 inch Wissner. Stwy copy. Needs a board Its a copy of a 6 ft 1 inch A-2. Case shape,legs, hard wood rim. We are considering making it the First "Erwins & Sons" piano. Hot Rod soundboard and souped up action etc.
How much might it sell for in reality when done providing it blows the doors off any thing else that size?
What do you guys think think?

Hi Dale,

I'm in the same boat. I've got a Hume 5'10"...S&S O knock off from the turn of the century, before Hume and Steinert split up. Built like a tank...has great potential. Its getting the whole nine yards, new rc&s board, recale, bridges w/ transition bridge, epoxy laminated cap, full WNG stack,key and action re-proportion, keyboard, etc, etc.

Yeah..what do you guys think?

Jim Ialeggio

This is all music to my ears. As the pianos will be music to the ears of the fortunate recipients.

ddf

The short answer is yes. However, there were some spectacular cabinets in some of these "other" brands as well and there are a few people out there who enjoy having something different than their neighbor or friend - especially if it sounds and looks as well... or better than what their neighbor is used to seeing and hearing.

One customer of mine is a noted dentist in our area. He bought a rosewood 5'8" Knabe from me instead of a new Steinway M . He loves to entertain and he enjoys seeing if people know the name when they visit his home. He says that invariably, if people know the name Knabe, than they know something about good pianos. If they do not, he doesn't take their opinions or observations seriously anyway.

I like that!

If you truly want to take it to the optimum level of hand workmanship and craftsmanship in the piano world, you have to acknowledge someone like David Rubenstien whereas building that one off piano from scratch is just truly amazing. Restoration,rescaling etc. is truly one thing but I don't think he gets the recognition justly deserved. He does my new soundboards, bridges and ribs till his ship comes in on his own stuff.

So you're expending large sums of money and labor on a non-Steinway. They'll turn out to be great pianos for sure but a difficult-to-market new rebuild will just become an even-more-difficult-to-market piano after the first sale. Your buyer would have to accept that risk and it almost feels unethical to sell someone something that they cannot fairly re-sell (even if they acknowledge the risk).

I just got back from buying groceries. I did not buy anything that I could fairly re-sell, particularly after I have used it!

But I no longer rebuild pianos for resale. I did very little of that, anyway. When I rebuild pianos for the user, I assess their needs and usages, and decide what they should do on the basis of those needs and their budget.

As I get older, I am anxious to do work on some pianos just because they belong to old customers, so that the work gets done in an economical manner for them. I want to make sure they do not have to go to someone who will try to wring every dollar they can get out of them after I can no longer do it.

In these cases, good work resells about as well as new pianos. There is depreciation in both.

I'll take that Knabe! if its good enough for Einstein & Elvis its good enough for me!

You bought the sales hype.

I challenge it!

Take a look at another large ticket item, for instance, a home remodel. The amount of money expended on the vast, vast majority of home renovations, major and minor is simply not recouped in a home sale. Even when the economy is good, the work to the home is often not recouped...the real estate may appreciate(not now, but in the olden days) but not the money spent on the remodel.

People spend large amounts on large ticket items because the purchase makes them happy...the purchase is about quality of life.

In addition, some people make these purchases to acquire status. In both cases,however, the resale value of the purchase simply does not motivate the purchase.

If a party is really interested in turning products around for a profit...I respectfully suggest that pianos are one of the worst investments you can make. Pure monetary returns would be much greater in prudent investment designed to make money, not music.

Marketing that claims a piano is a profitable investment monetarily is simply deceitful...a complete crock!

Jim Ialeggio

Jim already answered this well but I will add that players that really PLAY, whether they are pros or amateurs, tend to understand that they are buying a tool, not an annuity.

Players that use an instrument in this way look for comfort, expression, artistic response, and personal appeal. How much they can sell it for after beating on it for several hours per day for thirty years never enters the discussion.

Further, to assume that as a percentage of the original sale, a Knabe would not hold its value compared to a Steinway is folly. That thought process is a result of clever marketing.

Rich, I never said anything about Chickering was "inferior". I said I wasn't generally in love with the upper register. As far as Chickerings go I believe that the 6'4" design was likely their most successful sonically. I have owned a bunch of pianos. My Knabe 9' rebuilt by me 20 some years ago still adorns the living room and I have and continue to love it and play the heck out of it daily. It has been so well played that it sounds like Horowitz's on the Rachmaninoff 3 recording with Ormandy.I played Horowitz's piano about the time I rebuilt the Knabe and we had the opportunity to check bearing, crown etc. on his piano. At the time, it seemed that it had just had new hammers installed and the sound was really lackluster, and that would be a nice adjective. I had worked up the two infamous Scriabin etudes for nothing, because I sure couldn't elicit THAT sound from the master's piano. My wife and I performed some Strauss songs, took some pictures and we called it a day.I had another tech friend with me and he was inclined to say that my Knabe kicked this poor pianos tail decisively. It was then that I realized how important prep really was to making any piano sound in a particular way.

Anyhow it's long past time for new hammers on my Knabe. The M&H CC2 is presently being refinished and will be dovetailed with the Knabe. Though I have owned Steinways and have loved them, these are my two keepers...well, unless someone needed to dump their Steinway D. I was not deriding the less known instruments, only making the point that in terms of restoration if you are spending serious money there might be better places to spend it. On the other hand, if you already own the piano and like it, it would make more sense to invest in what you have.

This is SO TRUE. Thank you, Rich...I had an old 7' Weber that I beat the heck out of for 20 years, but it PERFORMED, and I never regretted having it. For those of us busy working on music, a piano is in many respects a tool -- a rewarding and lovely tool -- not a status symbol or investment.

There's a concept in marketing called educating the customer. If more people came to know the inherent value in many of the classic American instruments, I believe the monetary value of restored instruments would increase.

Interesting comment!

I bought a less than shiny old grand (my Chas M Stieff) this spring and had it partially restored. Case is original, and in pretty good shape for it's age. A full workover with Scott's Liquid Gold seemed appropriate.



My 22 year old neice even thinks so!

And it's kinda fun to recycle an old piano and bring it back to near new condition.

I don't buy the sales hype but it's just the market. Tony sells more Steinways than M&Hs (probably also because he has more Steinways than M&Hs).

But I understand better now what you and Rich have written. It really is great that the technology and skills are out there to do great piano rebuilds... I might seriously consider that myself when the time comes for my piano... But at least personally, to spend that $30k+ for an item that has much less appeal to most everyone else is a risk if something like getting laid off or racking up serious medical bills were to happen. You have to be REALLY sure. One example is the Steinbuhler 7/8 version of the Walter 1500... If I get one and then really need to sell it, I'd have no idea who'd want it. It's just sooo specialized. I suppose the trick is to not get into situations in which one needs to liquidate pianos

Having been a real state investor for years on end, I would say real estate is truly the one investment venture that both the investor and or the homeowner / end user can capitalize on their investment whether short or long term. One just has to be a little astute and aware of their investment risk and potential.
Any smart home renovation will be recouped in a future home sale Ex. Any permitted room addition will increase one's square footage therefore reflect on the comps of comparable priced homes. Updating your home via a facelift or renovation can make your home more marketable to a prospective buyer. When persons buy a home most look for a prerenovated movein condition home whereas that home renovation will be amortised to the buyer over 30 years as opposed to renovation cost that the buyer has to expend in CASH after the close of escrow.

Now I agree that a superficial cosmetic renovation that doesn't initially add value to your home may not be a smart move in lieu of selling your home in the near future. The term "fixerupper" doesn't apply to pianos or cars or ? unless you are in the piano industry or a mechanic but it does apply to real estate.

Ok...got it...point taken

My point would still be that for many non-investor homeowners, their home is a personal art project. Many renovations are undertaken for aesthetic quality of life reasons, and not from the perspective of a real estate investor. Cosmetic renovations, and remodels, where say a perfectly respectable, sale-able kitchen is ripped out and tricked out with new design features, will not look very good on a dollar for dollar payback in resale. Interior designer remodels...whoa...break out the check book.

I was (and still am to a small degree) involved in historic restoration. I think this end of real estate is pretty similar to the piano world in terms of aesthetic motivation. The money poured into these restorations is so clearly motivated by aesthetics, because the hand work and obsolete building technologies involved could be accomplished with much less cost using more current construction techniques. However, the homeowners find the current run of the mill remodeling products utterly unacceptable aesthetically, and activily seek out craftsmen who can satisfy off their aesthetic needs...resale payback, especially these days, be damned.

Jim Ialeggio

Rich Galassini said
The short answer is yes. However, there were some spectacular cabinets in some of these "other" brands as well and there are a few people out there who enjoy having something different than their neighbor or friend - especially if it sounds and looks as well... or better than what their neighbor is used to seeing and hearing.

One customer of mine is a noted dentist in our area. He bought a rosewood 5'8" Knabe from me instead of a new Steinway M . He loves to entertain and he enjoys seeing if people know the name when they visit his home. He says that invariably, if people know the name Knabe, than they know something about good pianos. If they do not, he doesn't take their opinions or observations seriously anyway.



I have also found that this, at least right now is the key to being able to sell a rebuilt piano that is not a Steinway. People who are attracted by a interesting case found in many grands built up in till about 1915 can be excited to learn what a Knabe, Chickering, Weber, Shomer etc, was in the history of the piano industry and think it's neat to own a piece of history. Are these people the very best players? No, but lots of people who play reasonably well for fun and have the money, also want a piano as a decorator item in their home and these pianos can fill that need very well, so the refinishing need to be done well. Many times these pianos can be found right now for very little money or for free, so not having to put out $4000-$10000 for some Steinway core can help the price of the finished piano make it work. I also love working on these types of pianos.



I like that! [/quote]

Automobile restoration is well known that for a complete frame off job the chances of recovering your investment is slim for most makes. Yet people do it because they love the cars, own them, drive them, show them. To them it has value.

Real estate improvements for a homeowner, well there are well documented project lists that show what % of recovery you can get for each item. Kitchen and Baths, higher. Pools and additions lower. However different purposes are at work here. One owner might be making an improvement for his/her lifestyle another to make a sale. When I renovated my long term rental to sell it, I knew where and not where to spend our money. It never reached the market and I had several buyers making bids. Unfortunately for the purchaser the house is now worth about 1/3 less than he paid .

The point being people will spend money on projects for differing reasons, not just based on what the resale value might be. I see two different entities here the professional rebuilder who will spec a piano and the owner/buyer of a piano that needs restoration. From what I've seen Steinways dominate the first for obvious reasons. However the incessant bashing that goes on of other brands worthy of restoration from the first group to the second is part of the reason these pianos sell for less, not because they are lesser instruments. It would be nice if more facilities existed where buyers could go play several restored pianos like you can in a dealers showroom. I'm not aware of any here in the Bay Area, but would certainly visit one if it existed. Therefore my judgement of these pianos are based on those I've visited in peoples homes, and the occasional one at a dealer. Not the best way to gain a broad knowledge base efficiently. Still in my limited experience I have learned a lot...

OK, good, lets bag the bellyaching and get to the crux of the matter...

How does a seriously interested piano buyer, or a piano buyer trying to get their feet wet, or a piano buyer trying to figure out what they like, gain access to the excellent top quality, craftsman designed/built, expertly prepped pianos so many on this list are producing...pianos that rival the performance and finish of new brand name pianos 2 to 3 times their price...in an efficient audition manner?

I've been chewing on this problem seriously, trying to figure out constructive ways to navigate around the marketing BS and firepower the "serious" brands have at their disposal.

I feel that we, ie independent rebuilders, are to some degree helping the brands shut out our substantial potential contribution from the larger serious piano market. We have accepted our collective position as competitors vying for parts of a small market, trying our best to insulate our customers from other local or not so local small rebuilders, in search of our tiny market share.

This competitive approach to independent piano sales effectively shuts each of our shops off from the power other small like minded shops, along with our own, could muster, if we pooled sales resources. The firepower the major brands possess has very little to do with them owning a product far beyond the reach of any other mortal fabricator. Rather, it has to do with effective marketing, and the ability to place a large number of pianos in one place for pianists to audition efficiently.

I quote Swarth again here as an emphasis:


I can see a number of ways around this, thinking out loud...

Why not put together regional small shop rebuilt piano exhibitions...3 day weekend type affairs in low key convention center or some such settings...settings where Swarth, and any number of pianists like him could taste the various flavors?

Why not put together a traveling exhibition that hit a number of regions in a couple of successive weekend events?

Why not form regional juried small shop rebuilt piano collectives to offer a showroom for tonal flavors from many different vendors.

In the past, I've brought this up tentatively, once or twice to local shop owners, and the competition thing shuts it right down with a "yeah, right!"

At this point, though, I'm starting to form a clearer idea...vision...of what needs to, or could happen...

ie, though many of us are producing pianos, given the right circumstances, a buyer could see our respective pianos as a reflection of who we are, and a reflection of what our our respective aesthetic tendencies are. Since they are all unique creations, the competition thing really, if you think about it laterally, is baloney. Our pianos will be very different from each other, not better or worse, just different. Further, each of our own pianos will also be different from our own creations, offering the buying public choice that is simply not available in a new piano, major brand showroom...in short, with the breadth of choice we collectively offer, we have something entirely unique...but only collectively!

Viewed from this perspective, we really are not the competitors we think we are...it just requires some out-of-the-box lateral thinking.

Why not?

Jim Ialeggio

Like a vintage piano show? There are gem shows and jewelry fairs and computer shows... why not vintage piano shows (i.e., not NAMM). Of course the market for iPads is a lot bigger than rebuilt pianos...

I like this idea. It has the flavor of the local crafts fair...which seem to me to be gaining in popularity. The problem might be in moving all those instruments though; that's expensive. Maybe team up with craftspeople who are doing other handmade instruments: guitars, dulcimers, etc. (Again, thinking outside the box.)

The piano industry is changing so fast, and sometimes changing drastically in what seems to be at monthly pace, how can anyone predict the value of any piano twenty years from now. I recommend buying a piano you enjoy playing, service it, take care of it, and sell it for no less than what it was bought for plus inflation.

I'd skip the selling part. Buying right is much more important than selling right.

If you can "sell if for no less that what it was bought for plus inflation", that would be fine, but like you say, "how can anyone predict the value of any piano twenty years from now?"

I would suggest one other factor: piano rebuilding/restoring is a luxury market. your potential customer base will always be small. In fact I suspect many great pianos will never be restored not because people don't appreciate them, but because there just aren't enough customers to buy them.

Frankly, the best way I see of increasing market share for restorers is to take mid-range quality pianos and improve them just enough to sell them at a mid-range price. Can a $1500 piano really only be returned to "playable" status by a $30000 restoration? If that $1500 piano can be improved just enough to be viable for a beginning to intermediate player at a cost of only $1500-$2500, I think many people would be interested.

In chatting with the fellow who did my piano work, he stated that a significant part of his recent work has been on "mid-range" pianos that grandpa & grandma are having fixed up to give to the grandkids. Granted this was working on client's pianos, not buying, fixing up and re-selling.

I prefer a late 19th century piano over a new one, at least I know its real wood!
and not MDF! sprayed black with a plastic finish!...and I'll take that old victorian
home instead of a new one,at least I know its not rotting away after only 5 years
like some new homes I seen..with the fake veneer stucco finish, and water leaked behind
and the whole front need to be torn down..I'll take an old well built house needing repairs
to modernize it in the 21st century..some TLC..to go with an old Grand piano..and I'm happy!

I was with you until you got to the Victorian home...

Been there, done that, still paying the "restoration" bills.

The good thing is I learned so much more about 19th century wiring and plumbing than I ever thought possible. My old house was virtually a living history of electric power.

I cherish the memories and intend to keep them memories!

I expect to have to change the plumbing and wiring..at least its real hardwood floors
and mouldings, not prefinished thin veneer flooring..foam core lookalike mouldings..
and the clawfoot tub isn't fiberglass reproduction, certainly you need to make
changes.. and old growth trees that takes years no pun intended..so most new homes
use metal studs when they can..SIPs to save wood etc..we live in such a disposable society
a car..toss it after 10yrs same goes for washer.dryer/fridge..and that's ok its metal
melt it and make a new one..but a tree..it takes years to get old.. I'm in favor of restoring worthy old pianos..maybe there's a need for the new disposable piano..
after 5 or 10 yrs...just imagine a MDF piano!

I don't know how the market in Modesto compares to Washington, DC, so I'm not sure the price would be the same. That said, I played a beautifully restored Steinert copy of an A-II (original board, new block, bridges, dampers, WNG action restored with Renner parts, Abel hammers) which, to my ears and fingers completely blew away the new A's I played recently at the local Steinway Gallery. Price of the Steinert mid-20 thousands. The finish was a flat black "conservatory type of finish" which my tech had done to it, because he didn't think he'd recoup the cost of a glitzier, fancier, hand rubbed finish. You MIGHT do better if you do; maybe not.
=================
I'd have bought that piano had I not got a better deal on a less glamorously refinished Steinert copy of a B two months ago. My tech assures me that when he's finished with the action work, it will feel every bit as nice as the restored A sitting in his shop.

The choices today are similar to what it was 15/20 years ago.
What has changed are the name/brands and the countries pianos are coming from. There are some nice pianos being mass manufactured today that will perform to a good standard for many years.
Once the time passes that these pianos are made to last, just chuck them into the land fill.
The expense of getting them back into a performance standard will not make sense.
We see this now from the products manufactured in past years that were priced quite low compared to some established makers.
Now, failing parts, loss of tone, difficult finishes to repair etc are the norm. We now see use pianos for sale at such low prices, people cant sell them due to longevity issues and the expense of repairs.
Only time will tell, and so we will see in 10 years what will still be musically appealing and have any value in the resale market. In the mean time let’s keep enjoying whatever we have and can afford, whether it be a Suzuki, Fazioli or a rebuilt quality vintage piano.

All pianos will depreciate. Some more than others over time. Some will end up with junk status and some will end up with a second chance at sharing its voice.

Jim - FWIW, I don't think you could get as much, no matter how great a job you do on it, as you would if STEINWAY were on the fallboard.

...unless you find that unusual creature, a working musician WITH MONEY who plays your instrument, can afford whatever s/he wants, and buys it not worrying about re-sale this, that or the other thing.

I'd consider the "conservatory finish" approach, maybe trim a few bells & whistles off everything you want to do, and price it far enough below its Steinway competition to sell in a reasonable amount of time.

Jim
uhh. Yeah baby!!
I was just reading up on the Steinert and Hume partnership that ended when Mr Steinert found out Mr. Hume was embezzling from the CO. The Hume label was required becasue Stwy sued the Steinert firm and won. In fact I am looking for a 7 ft Hume or Steinert basket case. Or a Wissner, Conover.........
So, Jim..I wish to know the outcome please. Bet Del does too.
Dale

If one is sucessful in remanufacturing a lesser known piano to be equal or superior than that of a uh..Steinway, and you sold it in a timely period for top $, Congratz! You have suceeded in selling yourself,your passion,your reputation,credibility and your obvious capabilities in creating this superb instument. Pursuing this endeavour in the end will put a feather in your cap but minimal $$ in your pocket. But Hey..the benefit will hopefully be forthcoming. Remanufacturing this as a spec status piano is gonna be gratifying to you as a rebuilder but could be a risky venture in lieu of the real world. If you have got alot of extra time and $$$ to invest into a project that may not pan out for maybe years, than go for it.Your ship will eventually come in. I personally deal in the real world not Piano World so to speak. I guarantee you that I will have facilitated and sold 10 Steinways to that remanufactured Hume unless you sell it way... below that of a comparable Steinway remnaufacture.You are a pro and you are probably aware of the price differential between that of a Steinway core vrs. a ? core. The question is whether or not that price differential between the core pianos plus the obscurity factor of the knock off is worth it to you.
Don't get me wrong I have facilitated restorations on more Knabes,Chickering,Conovers,Steinerts,Masons,Sohmers than I can remember. Hey Jim! Just messing with you as the Devil's advocate. Actually you would probably pursue this venture even if EVERYONE told you otherwise. You passion is commendable for sure.

You are quite correct in all this, at least from the straight economic standpoint. I mean, heck if money was the main object...uhh...pianos...yeah right!

I have spoken to many of what I consider to be the finest rebuilders, those building really beautiful sounding and looking instruments...most of them, or at least the ones who can be honest with themselves, admit that they earn their living performing sub-specialties to the trade, tuning...etc. They do the really nice restorations, even some of the high ticket restorations because...well, its a quality of life thing.

In terms of the Hume, I have a sound in mind that I'm looking for...a sound which is definitely not steinway's sound, and off the beaten path...and I'm and gettin' real close. The Hume will be an ideal carcass to pull this sound project further towards realization...damn the economics.

In the mean time, send me your tired, beat, twisted, split S&S tubular action rail frames to be rebuilt...one of my bread and butter services to the trade.

Jim Ialeggio

Charmin' fella...no?

Jim Ialeggio

Actually I do have a couple of action frame rails that are exactly as you say. I usually just buy new frames from Steinway but this is a 85 note B so...I would have to cut an 88 note new one down etc. An extra hassle to say the least. I'll definitely call you on this one for sure. The piano is actually already finished. Reveneered (macasar ebony)New keyset,New soundboard,bridges,ribs etc. I'll send it to you for sure. That is,the original damaged action frame.

Our operators are standing by, soldering torch in hand...

Jim Ialeggio