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#1790464 - 11/17/11 07:19 AM Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 553
Loc: Norway
I have always used acoustic pianos, and never believed that I ever should purchase a digital instrument. Needing the option to play silently, however, I eventually acquired a Yamaha Avant Grand N1. I still have my Kawai K-3. Thus I have the option to compare the two instruments.

The Avant Grand is 20% more expensive than the Kawai, meaning that the two instruments are comparable in price.

The action of the Avant Grand (AG) blows the Kawai away. It feels heavier, but still it is much easier to play trills and fast passages with the AG.

The AG also shines when comes to dynamic range. With the Kawai it is often quite difficult to bring out middle voices in polyphonic music. Much easier with the AG. Real pianissimo is difficult with the Kawai as it is with most other uprights and many small grands. This is no problem with the AG.

The sound of the AG seems, however, a bit artificial. It is better with headphones than through the built-in loadspeakers, but it is obvious that the instrument does not contain strings. On the other hand the Kawai has its quirks and the autentic sound is not flawless.

When practicing on the AG I master more difficult things than when playing the Kawai. At the same time imperfections come much clearer out on the AG, and it is easier to pinpoint the difficulties. The only thing that worries me is that the AG is such a good instrument to play that I'll perhaps get spoiled.

The Yamaha Avant Grand can't replace a real grand piano in all respects. But it is an alternative to consider for those who are interested in an upright piano. Time will show for how long time I'm going to continue using the Kawai. It is a decent piano in the middle price range, but the AG N1 is a very tough competitor.

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#1790479 - 11/17/11 08:03 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Radio.Octave Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 429
I played one a few years ago. It sounded really nice for being a digital. I don't remember the action being a significant improvement over the RX2 I had at the time. Not having to deal with tuning and all the other maintenance that comes with a piano would be an advantage. The one problem I see is that for the price, you could get a real acoustic grand.
_________________________
Kawai RX-6 BLAK

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#1790498 - 11/17/11 08:50 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 553
Loc: Norway
On the Norwegian market a real acoustic grand for the price of an Avant Grand N1 would be a used one or a very small and cheap one. For me it is also a practical issue with limited space. Of course better instruments are available, but for my personal use and with my present limitations the AG seems to be the better alternative.

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#1790554 - 11/17/11 10:55 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Radio.Octave Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 429
That makes sense in your situation. Two big issues I can see with pianos are that they take up a lot of space, and they're loud. If I remember correctly, the AG uses a real action (maybe even weighted hammers or something?) which is probably why it plays and feels better than an upright.
_________________________
Kawai RX-6 BLAK

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#1790601 - 11/17/11 12:02 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Radio.Octave]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1596
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: milehighou
That makes sense in your situation. Two big issues I can see with pianos are that they take up a lot of space, and they're loud. If I remember correctly, the AG uses a real action (maybe even weighted hammers or something?) which is probably why it plays and feels better than an upright.


The AG indeed uses the same action as a Yamaha acoustic grand, except that the hammer does not strike a string. That's why it really is a "hybrid," rather than either an acoustic or digital piano.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1790659 - 11/17/11 01:41 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 319
If sound volume is not an issue, or at low volumes, I would suggest using a decent sub-woofer with the N1. It would really help the low end of the N1 to sound better.

The action on the N1 is really nice!

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#1790754 - 11/17/11 04:26 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: ClsscLib]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: milehighou
That makes sense in your situation. Two big issues I can see with pianos are that they take up a lot of space, and they're loud. If I remember correctly, the AG uses a real action (maybe even weighted hammers or something?) which is probably why it plays and feels better than an upright.


The AG indeed uses the same action as a Yamaha acoustic grand, except that the hammer does not strike a string. That's why it really is a "hybrid," rather than either an acoustic or digital piano.


With a real grand action, it will play as badly as an acoustic grand if it is not regulated.

It remains a digital instrument.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1790766 - 11/17/11 04:39 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: BDB]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1596
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: milehighou
That makes sense in your situation. Two big issues I can see with pianos are that they take up a lot of space, and they're loud. If I remember correctly, the AG uses a real action (maybe even weighted hammers or something?) which is probably why it plays and feels better than an upright.


The AG indeed uses the same action as a Yamaha acoustic grand, except that the hammer does not strike a string. That's why it really is a "hybrid," rather than either an acoustic or digital piano.


With a real grand action, it will play as badly as an acoustic grand if it is not regulated.

It remains a digital instrument.


The tone produced is digital. The input from the player is essentially indistinguishable from input to a grand.

To me, that's what "hybrid" means.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1790796 - 11/17/11 05:17 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: BDB]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: milehighou
That makes sense in your situation. Two big issues I can see with pianos are that they take up a lot of space, and they're loud. If I remember correctly, the AG uses a real action (maybe even weighted hammers or something?) which is probably why it plays and feels better than an upright.


The AG indeed uses the same action as a Yamaha acoustic grand, except that the hammer does not strike a string. That's why it really is a "hybrid," rather than either an acoustic or digital piano.


With a real grand action, it will play as badly as an acoustic grand if it is not regulated.

It remains a digital instrument.


Somehow I rather doubt you would have made that statement if someone were to purchase a new grand piano. smile

Of course, any grand piano action will need to be worked on at some point. I had my GranTouch action worked on after five years or so ... just like I did on my C3.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1790815 - 11/17/11 05:40 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
No, I do not say grand pianos remain digital, and I often say that pianos play poorly if they are not regulated.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1790818 - 11/17/11 05:43 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: BDB]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1596
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Mechanical devices that require maintenance indeed should be maintained; nae doot aboot that.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1791835 - 11/19/11 05:43 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: ClsscLib]
Maxtor Offline

Bronze Supporter until Jan 01 2013


Registered: 08/14/11
Posts: 182
I love your review and agree that the N1 is a respectable instrument, but I have a different perspective.

After trying the N1, I have to say that I was dissapointed. I'm an amateur student, but I had probably played 200 pianos over the previous weeks while shopping, so I think I had a good frame of reference. Also I live in the US where we have a good selection of used pianos.
To me, the touch of the N1 felt like it was a grand piano trying to be a digital. This is probably due to the plastic keys that the N1 has (I think the more expensive AG's use a different key material), and the lack of vibration felt from the keys in the N1.
Perhaps most annoying of all, with the N1's volume set to maximum, it was not quite as loud as a small upright. I think that a digital should be capable of being louder than an acoustic, and the owner can adjust the volume however they want.
For around the same price and the N1, I could get a 5' 10" used Kawai baby grand, or maybe even a 6' with a bit more haggling. Living in the US, I would pick the Kawai. If I lived somewhere without many piano tuners or horrifying weather, then the N1 may be a good alternative... but there's a great Roland keyboard for only $1500 and I would probably buy that and keep the rest of the money.

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#1793142 - 11/21/11 05:37 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Maxtor]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 553
Loc: Norway
Fair enough, Maxtor.
One of the reasons for my preference is the fact that I have limited space and high volume does not matter so much for me. Much of the time with the AG I use headphones.

I simply play better with the AG than with the Kawai K-3. I even doubt that I could do the same with a high-class upright that I can with the AG. Maybe the situation would be different for a better pianist. smile

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#1793346 - 11/21/11 12:58 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1596
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
I don't know about volume with the N1. My experience with the N2, tested in a room full of acoustic uprights (including a Yamaha U3 and others comparable to it) was that the N2 was, if anything, louder than all of the other acoustics.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1794380 - 11/23/11 02:11 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 553
Loc: Norway
When comes to volume I find that the AG beats the K-3 across the whole register.

Yesterday I had the opportunity to play a little on a Yamaha C-2 grand. Of course, the real grand gives better tone than the AG. But at a price that is three times higher and due to the size of the instrument this is not an option for me. The good thing for me was that I found the touch of the two instruments to be very similar. This means that the AG works very well as a practice instrument. For me this is very important because I play for the public just 3 - 4 times a year, and I sometimes had bad experience going from the upright at home to the grand pianos used for the public performances.

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#1794425 - 11/23/11 04:33 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Ganddalf, what's the typical price in Norway for the N1 when converted to Euros and US Dollars? I recently played my first N1 in a regular music store, as opposed to a store that sell only acoustics. Yamaha obviously changed their marketing strategy.

When they introduced the N3 and N2 they were only displayed in Yamaha piano stores. That's changed. When I bought my N3 there were only five Yamaha dealers in the Netherlands who could sell the AvantGrand. Now there are ten dealers (in 11 locations) who can sell the AvantGrand line.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1794431 - 11/23/11 04:56 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 553
Loc: Norway
Dave,

I payed about 9150 USD for my N1. This is more expensie than the Kawai K-3, but cheaper than the Yamaha U1. I see the same tendency in Norway - that the number of Avant Grand dealers increases.

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#1794436 - 11/23/11 05:09 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
That comes to €6800. That seems a reasonable price.

If Yamaha would have introduced the N1 first, I probably would have have bought one. (Don't forget to add your purchase in the DIGITAL PIANO PRICES PAID thread in the other forum.)
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1794439 - 11/23/11 05:42 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Don't forget to add your purchase in the DIGITAL PIANO PRICES PAID thread in the other forum.


I wasn't aware of this thread in the digital piano forum until I read your comment above. That's because I've rarely looked at the DP forum.

Here's a recent example of the format used on the DP thread :

USER LOCATION: Southern California
MAKE: Yamaha
MODEL: CLP-470
CONDITION: New
PRICE PAID: $3340 + $260 tax
DELIVERY CHARGE: Self-pickup
VENDOR LOCATION: Southern California
PURCHASE DATE: November, 2011

Dave, do you think something similar on this forum (piano forum) would be of value to acoustic piano purchasers? So many inquiries here are in regards to price. Obviously there are wide variances of price - location, country , availability, marketing, cost, profit...
Is the digital piano pricing world more transparent/consistent , in your experience?

Do you, or anyone else here, think this may be of value to piano purchasers to have something similar on the piano forum in regards to purchase details?
Seems to be an ongoing and endless topic of inquiry.

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#1794456 - 11/23/11 06:52 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Dara, I didn't start that pricing thread in the digital forum. The rule of thumb seems to be, the prices in the US are much better than in Europe ... and the guys in Scandinavia (and Australia) pay even more.

I've heard that Volkswagen gives the Dutch dealers a better price so they can better compete with the German dealers. I don't know if that's still the case but just going over the border can save a fair amount of money on many items. You also have to factor in the VAT we in Europe pay. In Holland it's 19 percent ... in Denmark it's 25 percent. (I'm waiting for Damon to make an appropriate comment. smile )

I'm not in a position to recommend a similar thread here, but my position is, more information is better than less. I'm sure there would be greater variance in used prices, but I'm always interested in learning what a new piano sells for.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1794460 - 11/23/11 07:11 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Oh yes. You pay 9K for a Yammie GB1, 30K for a 40- something year old unrestored Yamaha CF, 250K for a Schimmel concert grand. 65k for a worn out out of tune, 30 year old Steinway O. 280k RRP for Steinway D. Its horrible!!!! cry

I'll stop now. I'm sorry for ranting. But i gave you a good idea, right? smile

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#1794490 - 11/23/11 08:39 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

I'm not in a position to recommend a similar thread here, but my position is, more information is better than less. I'm sure there would be greater variance in used prices, but I'm always interested in learning what a new piano sells for.


Thanks for your response.
I was thinking prices on new pianos, similar to the format happening on the DP forum. If there was a thread here, such as the ongoing one on the DP forum, of the actual prices people paid for new pianos , along with other details, it would provide a real life scenario of pricing ... and also in relation to place/area/country of purchase.

....................................................

Is Larry Fine to be regarded as the only current authority on piano pricing?

There is so little info available for the consumer in regard to piano prices.
Like it's a crime (according to manufacturers) to divulge a price over a phone inquiry! - so one might have to drive several hours, as in many stories I've read here , and myself included just to establish cost.

And marked prices on pianos in stores are usually false and a good example of dishonest practice that seems prevalent in the industry.
No wonder there is so much ignorance, frustration, and endless threads that begin here asking about prices of a new piano.

Perhaps it's time for an actual account here of what people are paying in any given place and time.

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#1794530 - 11/23/11 10:09 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
ZoeCalgary Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Calgary Alberta
I agree with Dara!!

I bought a used piano to start on and want to move up one day to a baby grand. Problem is I have no idea what dollar value I'm saving for. I've been quoted Msrp for any piano I've been interested in while in stores. It frustrates me to no end.

I've made it very clear I want to make step up purchases if I knew real costs. A larger upright, also a decent digital, then in 5 years or so a grand. But I need to know what I'm working with. For instance I've been told an Yamaha u1 is $9000+ but yet have seen posts here for nearer to $5000 for a new one. A huge difference. Or more recently a Kawai K3 for $6000 where somebody got the K2 for $3400. It's enough to drive me crazy.

I would love to see a new piano prices paid thread! It would help me immensely!
_________________________
Preparing Grade 6 RCM.


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#1794624 - 11/23/11 12:38 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: ZoeCalgary]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
I'd be interested if Ken or Rick can comment on the possibility of such a standing thread. I seem to remember something about in the past there might have been something like it but due to abuse it had to be taken down... maybe that was something else.

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#1794648 - 11/23/11 01:17 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Since there are many piano store owners here I would imagine if anyone of them were to squash the idea, everyone else would fold.

I waiting to hear from the store owners why this would be a bad idea. smile
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1794802 - 11/23/11 05:10 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 319
Just because pianos can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars compared to digital pianos that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars... Why can't we have an "Acoustic Piano Prices Paid" sticky thread at the top like the Digital Pianos forum has?

It's a freedom of speech world! smile

Piano World may be subsidized by advertisers that sell pianos, but... Many of those same advertisers sell digitals and acoustics both... What's the diff? Retail is retail...

Here come the posts... I think I will go hide in a hole now...

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#1794843 - 11/23/11 05:46 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: HwyStar]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
I think it's doable if we put up some warnings and disclaimers at the top for all to read. Something like:

- These prices are self-reported and are not verified.
- Recommend that you ignore the outliers.
- Understand that different dealers have different costs.
- Understand that different countries have different costs.
- Understand that different dealers have different standards in pre-sale prep.

Comments?

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#1794870 - 11/23/11 06:30 PM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: Ganddalf]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 319
For those Acoustic people who have not visited this page before, here is the link to the thread in DP land for review: DIGITAL PIANO "PRICES PAID"

Good points gnuboi! Please better describe an "outlier" since I am not sure what you mean by that term.

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#1795092 - 11/24/11 12:04 AM Re: Kawai K-3 and Yamaha Avant Grand N1 [Re: HwyStar]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
By outlier I just meant reported purchases that are just way too far from what most others have paid. Could be super high or super low. Could be real or could be fake. Could come from naughty members or disingenuous competitors.

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