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I'm working with the Ernst Herttrich edition of the Mozart Sonatas (Henle). Looking at the first movement of K310 I'm not quite sure how to close the movement out. The movement is Allegro Maestoso and most recordings I've listened to (incl Uchida who I tend to trust) tend to really rock this out one. There are definitely parts where I feel it this way but overall I'm tending to tone it down a bit.
Anyway, my question concerns the last 11 lines which have considerable variation in mood - really they sort of reiterate the entire movement. The last dynamic marking is in bar 103 and it's P. I can't imagine Mozart intended *all* of those last lines to be played P and indeed no one does. But it's possible to end this thing F, FF (other parts of the movement are FF for ex so it can take some serious violence). My preference (as of this morning - this will change for sure!) is to peak somewhere between F and FF in bars 130-132 then die off to mF for the chords in the last bar.
Any thoughts people?
Last edited by jnod; 11/26/11 11:04 AM.
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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Lots of things could work great, and really it's hard to judge it in the abstract -- we'd really have to hear you play it -- but if you insist ....I don't think ending mf is real good. mf is sort of a wussy dynamic. And I don't think the movement should end with a wussy dynamic. Although this gets into what we mean by the various dynamic indications. If I were going to do the basic idea that you suggest, I'd end "p" -- but my "p" usually has a relatively strong top note (and a weak everything-else). If that's what you mean by mf, then I'd say it could be fine. If you mean all the notes being moderately loud, I wouldn't.
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Hmm - well, I wouldn't want to play Mozart like a wuss. I tried a whole bunch of endings this afternoon. Tried really hammering out those last three chords which was a lot of fun. So now I'm leaning towards a more dramatic ending.
I don't like the second movement at all - at least not yet but maybe I just need to give it some time. Have you played the whole sonata?
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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Maybe try letting up at the end of the movement, as you thought before, but 'voicing' the chords as I mentioned -- upper note of those chords fairly strong, the rest of the notes quite soft -- and with a bit of a diminuendo going across them? A lot of people would think that's too "Romantic," and some others would think the idea is just terrible ...but maybe try it. I think it could work. P.S. The slow movement is special. Maybe it'll take time for you to get into it. Or maybe you won't. I think getting into it depends on seeing how the phrases can be shaped -- how they have an ebb-and-flow. Those phrases speak, they sigh.....they "express." If the notes are just sort of 'played,' I think the movement would sound deadly. But if conceived and played expressively....
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You know, I find that every time I underestimate something by Mozart I end up being wrong. And this applies most consistently to the slow movements of the sonatas. There's always so much more going on that you can see in a first impression. Anyway, I'm planning on learning K310 start to finish so I will stick with the second movement. My speed-freak tendencies led me to start with the first and last.
Anyway, thanks for the insight into those final chords - I think I see what you mean. The principle statement played this way is an incomplete descending A minor arpeggio. Something about this sounds very intense and sort of urgent - I like this. I'm finding that the rest of the passage work lots of different ways with the one constant being big sudden swings in volume. It may sound a little more Schubert than some would desire but hey.....I'm just playing for myself here!
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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I would counter your question with...
How will you start the 2nd movement?
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That's a good question but I haven't spent enough time with the second movement yet to really know. I suppose an alternate approach would be to learn all three movements simultaneously so that they could evolve together? I just don't have enough time for that (unfortunately) so I tend to focus on what catches my fancy first.
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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I interpret the final measure in an 'abruptly, interrupted' fashion. I also enjoy (meaning: it's probably incorrect) a subito piano at the start of ms. 129 after 3 measures of declamatory forte.
I just wish that I can make up my mind about a dynamic scheme for the measures between 103 and 126!
Yes, that 2nd movement.....wow........
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I add my own dynamics.
m. 104-112 "ebb and flow" between p and mf. lots of dynamic shading here, following the contour of the melody line m. 113-114 crescendo to f m. 115 diminuendo to p m. 116-119 crescendo to mf m. 120 diminuendo to p m. 121-124 crescendo to mf m. 125 diminuendo to p m. 126-127 subito forte m. 128 diminuendo m. 129 starts at piano m. 129-132 a gradual crescendo m. 133 bang out three loud chords at f or ff
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I add my own dynamics.
m. 104-112 "ebb and flow" between p and mf. lots of dynamic shading here, following the contour of the melody line m. 113-114 crescendo to f m. 115 diminuendo to p m. 116-119 crescendo to mf m. 120 diminuendo to p m. 121-124 crescendo to mf m. 125 diminuendo to p m. 126-127 subito forte m. 128 diminuendo m. 129 starts at piano m. 129-132 a gradual crescendo m. 133 bang out three loud chords at f or ff Hmm - thanks for this. I'm tending to more sudden transitions with less cresc and dim but this is similar to what I'm doing. I confess I'm having a little difficulty staying in control of this last few lines - it's very exciting and intense and as I build toward the finale I tend to speed up and the whole thing just kind of comes unhinged. Doing a lot of work with the metronome to try and get it all under maximum control.
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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I add my own dynamics.
m. 104-112 "ebb and flow" between p and mf. lots of dynamic shading here, following the contour of the melody line m. 113-114 crescendo to f m. 115 diminuendo to p m. 116-119 crescendo to mf m. 120 diminuendo to p m. 121-124 crescendo to mf m. 125 diminuendo to p m. 126-127 subito forte m. 128 diminuendo m. 129 starts at piano m. 129-132 a gradual crescendo m. 133 bang out three loud chords at f or ff I like this! The 2nd movement is in complete contrast to the 1st, and ending the 1st by "rocking it out", as the OP puts it, highlights the contrast, in my view.
Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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I'm working with the Ernst Herttrich edition of the Mozart Sonatas (Henle). Looking at the first movement of K310 I'm not quite sure how to close the movement out. The movement is Allegro Maestoso and most recordings I've listened to (incl Uchida who I tend to trust) tend to really rock this out one. There are definitely parts where I feel it this way but overall I'm tending to tone it down a bit.
Anyway, my question concerns the last 11 lines which have considerable variation in mood - really they sort of reiterate the entire movement. The last dynamic marking is in bar 103 and it's P. I can't imagine Mozart intended *all* of those last lines to be played P and indeed no one does. But it's possible to end this thing F, FF (other parts of the movement are FF for ex so it can take some serious violence). My preference (as of this morning - this will change for sure!) is to peak somewhere between F and FF in bars 130-132 then die off to mF for the chords in the last bar.
Any thoughts people? Ultimately, the performer can change the playing as the piece evolves, since music has a plasticity that allows for different interpretations.
Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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It's a very fun piece actually. Still have not figured out the second movement. Leaving it for a week or two to get the first under a little better control. The third is also very exciting - Presto!!
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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Maybe try letting up at the end of the movement, as you thought before, but 'voicing' the chords as I mentioned -- upper note of those chords fairly strong, the rest of the notes quite soft -- and with a bit of a diminuendo going across them? A lot of people would think that's too "Romantic," and some others would think the idea is just terrible ...but maybe try it. I think it could work. It is too Romantic. I've actually heard someone play the first movement with a diminuendo on the last three chords. Not the way I would do it.
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That's sort of what I was doing early on - it works to a point but it's feels better ending with three short sharp yelps.
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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The third is also very exciting - Presto!! That movement gets all kinds of different interpretations. I'd play it with full force. It's in a minor key! Mozart won't use a minor key unless it means something substantial. Some folks think ALL Mozart is light and fluffy and "charming." They obviously haven't sat through Don Giovanni or The Requiem.
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I don't find Mozart light or fluffy!
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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The third is also very exciting - Presto!! That movement gets all kinds of different interpretations. I'd play it with full force. It's in a minor key! Mozart won't use a minor key unless it means something substantial. Some folks think ALL Mozart is light and fluffy and "charming." They obviously haven't sat through Don Giovanni or The Requiem. How true! I like to play the last movement with a sort of "tiered" effect, a la Baroque style, where every 4 measures or so, you fluctuate between piano and forte, with forte winning out in the end. Fiendishly good!
Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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The Military Polonaise - I can remember my grandmother playing that!
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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Sorry - non sequitur - saw the Military Polonaise in LeaC's signature...
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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