Hello all,

Newbie here to the PW forums, although I have been lurking a little while trying to learn what I can before posting. I have found a significant amount of helpful information, but I have a few questions I'm hoping you all might be able to help with.

First of all, a little background. I'm 24, and have played piano since I was 5. I took 12 years of lessons, and then continued working on my own for the past 7 years or so. My parents had/have an old (and I mean OLD) Wurlitzer upright, but that's what I've played for my whole life. I have occasional access to a Yamaha baby grand, but that's not what I'm accustomed to playing.

I got a condo about 6 months ago, and I'm going crazy not having a piano to play. In addition, I can't really have an acoustic piano here, due to neighbors and/or when I usually end up playing (midnight).

I would consider myself an advanced player; however, at 24, with a mortgage, I'm at closer to a beginner's budget. Just to clarify, I'm looking at <$2K as a maximum upper ceiling, hoping for less than that. Here are a few of the most important things for me, ranked by priority:

1. GOOD piano sampling (not necessarily speakers, as I'll use headphones 99% of the time. Other voices, I care little to nothing about.)
2. Feel/weighting of the keys
3. Connectivity (I know very little about recording digitally, but my initial thoughts are that I would record using line/aux/phones out, rather than MIDI. But, I'm still learning about all that.)
4. Cabinet Piano would be preferred, aesthetically at least.

I went by my local guitar center (ugh), and at least "Pro Audio" is in a different room from the 15-20 simultaneous renditions of crazy train, sweet child of mine, smoke on the water, and iron man. They had a YDP-141, YDP-181, YDP-223, AP-420, and a non-functioning P95. They were all semi beat up (the AP-420's sustain pedal hardly worked), but I was able to plug in my headphones and try them all. Overall, I didn't feel like I learned that much due to the selection they had, the quality of the units, and the ambient noise. That said, I liked the YDP-181 and the AP-420 the best, but that's probably not a surprise.

I live in Orange County, so I can't imagine there isn't anywhere that has a more complete collection than Guitar Center.

From browsing these forums, it's clear to me there is a huge selection beyond the amazon/guitar center "most popular" list, so my hope is that those of you with significantly more experience than I (probably all of you) might have some recommendations or helpful directions to point me in! I don't forsee being able to own an acoustic upright/baby grand for many (5 minumum) years to come, so I'm hoping to get something that will last. I also hope to do some recording, although I truly am a beginner at that.

I appreciate any guidance! Thanks!

-roki

If you are on a budget I'd reconsider the decision for a cabinet type piano. Perhaps a stage piano with some decent stand will give you more satisfaction. In your position I'd consider a good action and good sounds most important, the form factor less so. And you should definitely play these instruments in person; as an experienced player you quickly get a feeling which of these instruments 'fits' your taste and style.

You might look at (price in increasing order)

Yamaha P155 (or CP50 without speakers)
Kawai MP 6
Roland FP 7F
Nord Piano 88

For the first two you can buy dedicated stands, and there are fairly similar cabinet types as well (Kawai CA13, Yam CLP 430, Roland HP 302). My favorite would be the Nord for the excellent sounds and open sound architecture but it may be above your budget...

Roki: Keep in mind that Guitar Center (and other music stores) carry only the low-end pianos. To find the high-end goods you must visit a piano dealer. (Side benefit: At least there you won't have to suffer crowds and noise.)

Agreed with everything Maurus said. You pay a lot for that cabinetry. Get a nice stand and a stage piano and you will be happy. Embrace the digitalness!

Also think about stretching your budget to include Kawai MP10. That RM3 action is nice and a piano is a pretty long-term investment. Alternately, you can get that RM3 action in the Kawai CA-63. I've been seeing people on the "prices paid" thread getting them cheaper than the MP10 goes for and it looks real nice.

On the lower end of the budget, consider the Yamaha CP33 as well (similar to the P155. A little older and more stage-pianoey but good).

I also wouldn't stress the onboard sounds too much. All modern pianos sound decent, though none sound amazing. If you have a computer nearby you can replace the sounds with software pianos that sound significantly better. You can do this at any time in the future. For now it's all about the action!

All decent quality pianos (over $1000 or so) will have great connectivity, so that shouldn't be a limiting constraint.

By all means check out piano stores. Theses days they almost all have lots of digitals. They have more variety than guitar center--though sometimes they carry a lot of old models at full price. Unfortunately you have to negotiate prices with them for the most part, so don't trust sticker prices.

Though I like the looks of the console type pianos better as well, you will find you get much more for your money in a stage piano. I'm pretty sure you usually get more connectivity options with the stage pianos as well.

Though I'm just a new player, I would agree that you should focus on feel/touch and sound of the piano. I've been looking for awhile and my favorites are:

Korg SP250 (~$699)
Yamaha P155 (~$1000)
Yamaha P161 (~$1600)

P.S. All prices are in Canadian dollars.

I've read alot about the Kawai MP6 stage piano but haven't yet played one. It has gotten very high reviews from everything I have read but you would have to play one to know if it is for you. However I have played console Kawai's. My favorite of these are:

Kawai CN23 ($1450)
Kawai CN 33 ($2150)


Good luck in your search and keep us posted as to what you find.

I appreciate everyone's help so far! As I feared, I'm falling prey to "scope creep" on this purchase...with my original budget around $1K, upped to $2K, and after learning about the MP10, I'm tempted to increase it again. I'm one of those people that says "If I'm spending $x for something decent, I might as well spend 1.5 * $x for something I REALLY like. But I do that 2 or 3 times and suddenly I'm at 4 * $x.

I think probably the most important thing I've decided now is that the cabinet style really isn't necessary. "Classic" aesthetics takes a seat far behind function to me when on a budget, so that significantly changes what I'm looking for. I already have some nice headphones (a pair of HD555s and a cheaper pair of HD280s), so I wouldn't really need an amp straight away.

As for local dealers, there is a large piano store just down the street, but as far as I can find, they only have acoustics, specializing in S&S. I should give them a call though. I'm not sure if I don't know how to look, but I'm having difficulty finding a local dealer via Google, at least.

For now, the search continues.

Roland FP7F ..... its a no brainer

Try the yamaha p155, the roland fp7f and the kawai mp10, and take your pick - different qualities, very different keyboard actions, all great for the requirement you described.

On reason the slab type pianos are cheaper is that they are actively and aggressively sold by online retailers with small profit margins and high volume, rather than mom-and-pop piano stores with very low volume and a lot of overhead. Feel free to pick a piano up online. That's where I got both the DP's I've owned.

I feel your pain on the scope creep, by the way. I'm feeling that pain right now as I try to determine a good speaker setup for my piano.

The good thing is that pianos don't really get better in terms of action after the Kawai MP10 and Roland FP7F (depending on what type of action you like). Yamaha actions are a little less clear. The same action is in the CP50, CP33, and P155 and it's quite decent. Their premium stage pianos actually have an action that's less like acoustics, though it's reputed to be good.

Anyway, there are some higher end pianos like the V-piano, RD700NX, CP1, etc., but it's not better action...just more sounds and performing features. So there's a cap on your spending.

...unless you want to go all out and spring for an AvantGrand!

If you're after a 'slab' or 'stage' piano, then depending on your budget I would consider the following models:

- Yamaha P155*
- Roland FP-4F*
- Kawai MP6
- Roland FP-7F*
- Kawai MP10
- Roland RD-700NX

* = features built-in speakers.

The last two boards I list are pretty close in terms of quality, although their sound/tonal character and keyboard actions are completely different.

Best of luck!

Cheers,
James
x

ps. Nice avatar.

I just got a Roland FP-7F wholesale (check "prices paid thread", last page) - $1350 vs. $2000 list price. Music ESP (San Francisco) doesn't always have these "repackaged units" in, but it might be worth a try. They come with full warranty. The dealer doesn't say why they are repackaged, but it may well be for some minor thing.

I had requirements very similar to yours, and so far, I am very happy with the Roland.

Oh, and I should add while the Roland is technically a stage piano, you can order a cabinet-like stand for it that doesn't add much to the price, but does give it more of a home piano feel.

.

I concur on the FP-7F. We ended up getting a Kawai CA63 since we wanted a cabinet and good built-in sound, and although I prefer the Kawai keyboard, the FP-7F was a close second. Based on your checklist, it is one heck of a good keyboard for the money, especially since you will mostly be using headphones; the Roland SN sound engine is fantastic. Plus, the FP-7F will be more compact and portable considering your current home environment. You should be able to get the stand and the optional 3 pedal add-on for around $2k.

As others have said, try to get to a few acoustic dealers with your favorite headphones in tow, don't buy anything without trying it out for yourself; so much is subjective.

Good luck, I think you can beat the creep!

If you liked the Yamaha YDP-181 then you'd like any Yamaha with the same "GH" key action inside. Yamaha like most companies re-uses a very few pain actions of quite a few models of piano.

I have a Yamaha P155. It sells for $999 and has the same piano key action as the 181. It has slightly better sound generation than the 181 but smaller built-in speakers. There is a matching "LP140" stand that works well and improves there looks of the unit. but means you'd need a screwdriver to make the piano portable


Next time you go back to GC. Try out the Roland line but given what you wrote above don't bother with any that contain Roland's "alpha" key action. Start with the FP7F and RD700NX. These keys are very good, also very different feel from Yamaha's "GH". But the cost is about $1,900. Vs. $1K for the P155.

Since you will be playing with headphones a majority of the time, I would encourage bringing your own headphones you would be using (if you have a specific pair you like) when trying out the piano.

I really enjoy (as another poster said) the HD280's by Senheiser. It really improves the sound of my piano.

If you are planning on being in your condo a long time; I think the cabinetry might be worth it. You feel as though you are sitting at an instrument vs. a keyboard on a stand.

I opted for the custom/stand pedals for a "pseudo" cabintry look.

If you like Steinway samples, I would also try out the Korg LP350; as well as the Casio PX830. These particular 2 models ship with custom stands that are sleeker and more slimlined than those of pianos such as the YDP-181.

Also, keep in mind that the NAMM music trade show is only 6 or 7 weeks away, so you might want to see if anything new is introduced that you might like as well.

The most important thing is to purchase something you will want to sit down and play; your budget allows you for a good amount of flexibility. Consider items with built in speakers since headphones will take up most of your playing time;
In other words. a stage piano that needed external monitors would add to your cost.

I have not seen that exclusively. Many music stores I have visited also have the higher end boards . . . Roland rd700's, etc. Some only have the low end boards, but some do carry a full line.

In fact, I purchased my first stage piano, a Kurzweil PC88, and the second one, a Roland RD700sx, both at large chain music stores.

Thanks everyone for all your replies! Christmas came and went, and now I find myself in a better position to finally get my DP. I've really narrowed it down to either the FP7-F or the MP10. Every piano dealer I've called in my area doesn't carry either DP at their location, but are happy to place an order for me. The sad part is, I can't really have them order both and then pick.

Alternately, I have a good friend who manages a Guitar Center, so I could order the FP7-F through him and get some kind of a discount, or perhaps accessories (stand + pedal) thrown in--something along those lines. I'm leaning that way at the moment, but it's such a difficult decision! Plus, if I don't like it, I can just return it to GC within 30 days. The FP7-F vs MP10 debate seems to be a common one. So much is subjective though, I almost feel like I should just pull the trigger on one because I probably won't be disappointed.

Roki, did you give Pierre's Fine Pianos a try?

James
x

Hmm, I hadn't seen them. I'm pretty far in south Orange County, so that's about 60 miles from me, unfortunately. It does look like they carry both models, though. I may have to make a trip up to LA...

60 miles to make a purchase of $2.5k, which you have to live with for many years and spend countless hours with....? Dude, get in the car!

+1

+2500 (USD)

+2501

Yup, I'm in the UK south where driving is a nightmare and am planning a 70 mile each way trip to look at a (red) stage piano I'm gas-ing about.

A fair point! I guess I just needed the nudge. Off to LA I go...!

I just spoke with Pierre, and unfortunately, he's sold out of the FP7-F, but has the MP10 in stock. Now I'm torn, because I feel like I'll probably just buy the damn thing if I get to play it, without even trying the Roland! :P

It usually doesn't take dealers that long to get more stock. A week or two at the most. Did Pierre say how long it would be? It's definitely worth making sure you've checked out both boards so you really feel satisfied with your decision.

I'm sure there are several Roland dealers in LA anyway, so even if you can't try them both at the same store, you could try them both on the same day.

Also, if he has an RD-700NX in stock, I think that would give you some idea of what the FP-7F would be like.

Yes, if you're already considering the MP10 and FP-7F, the RD-700NX should definitely be on your list.

It's unfortunate that Pierre has sold-out of FP-7Fs, however as ando notes, I'm sure you'll be able to find another music store/Roland dealer in LA with this model in stock. Unfortunately, the same cannot necessarily be said about the Kawai...

Cheers,
James
x

Hello again, all.

I've been out of town for a couple weeks, and am once again back in the hunt here. :]

I spoke with Pierre again today, and he said something about possible changes being made to the FP7-F announced at NAMM, and that he still didn't have any in stock and wouldn't again until more news came out. He still has an MP-10 in stock.

There's a Roland dealer about a mile from my house that I just spoke to who said he placed an order for FP7-Fs recently and they'd be in on Thursday. So, at this point, I'm not sure what I'll do. I may wait till next saturday, and then go play the FP7-F, and then drive up to LA and try the MP-10. I really, genuinely feel like I'd be totally happy with either one, but I just wish I could find a place to play both side by side.

Maybe I should give Pierre a call back and see if he has any RD-700NXs in stock?

check this out http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/2012/01/review-kawai-ce220-digital-piano.html This may well be exactly what you are really wanting. The key action may very well be the best you could hope for as well as superb piano sound for the less than $2000 price.

Well, at long last, I made my decision and my purchase.









I bought it from Pierre's Fine Pianos in LA last weekend, and went by Home Depot to pick up the parts for the stand I designed for it. I couldn't be happier! I love the action, the sound, and it sounds like a dream in my Sennheisers.

My next step is to run it into my PC to record. I'm not on a mac, so I'm just starting with Audacity for now. The cabling I'd need would be a 1/4" male to male mono cord with a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter for the PC side, is that correct? (Like this) Or would I want something like this? Not necessarily those in particular, but that basic idea?

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks for all the help thus far!

-roki

Congrats Roki!

Just out of curiosity, may I ask what was the deciding factor in convincing you to purchase the MP10?

The stand/table looks very solid - how is the playing height?

Regarding recording, it depends on the audio in connector on your PC. Assuming it's a 1/8" stereo jack the second Amazon link should do the job: Left+Right from the MP10 to Stereo into the computer.

Cheers,
James
x

Absolutely. It was the action, really. With the FP7-F, I liked the action a lot, and the sound was great. But I was always completely aware that I was playing a digital piano. When I sat down at the MP10, though, and after about 10 minutes of playing through my headphones and I nearly lost track that I was playing a digital piano. The design of that action truly is impressive. Also, I played both instruments while they were off, too, and the Roland's audible "thunk" was enough to make me fear potential domestic problems if I played too late!

The stand is extremely sturdy. I looked at different stands for purchase, and they were either way too flimsy for me to feel safe about putting such an expensive piece of equipment on, or else they were way too expensive. I build the whole thing out of redwood 2x4s and 3 inch screws. There's a 2x4 support beam running the full 55" length directly under the tabletop. The top itself is cut out of a 24x60 sheet of laminated pine, that I ripped 7" off and cut down to two pieces: 7"x55" and 17"55", with the former being a sheer piece across the back for added support. I have a 6'x2' strip of felt on order from amazon I'm going to cut to size just to protect the bottom of the keyboard and to line the bottom of the legs with. I measured the tabletop to 25" off the ground, with the MP10 being 3.5" from the bottom of the board to the top of the keys. This matches up basically with the 28.5" average piano key height (I think Steinway uses 28.75"). All in all, I think the stand cost me about $60 and about 6 hours of my time. Can't beat that!

-roki

Oh, and the chair is just a chair from my table set, while I decide what kind of chair/bench/stool I want!

I plan to stain the whole thing too, but I ran out of weekend!

I think the stand/table looks terrific, $60 on materials? Definitely money well spent - good job.

James
x

Congrats. Impressed with the stand too.

Yeah, the stand was only that costly because I went with premium cut redwood. If you went with Douglas Fir or something, you could do it for about $30. You can build the thing perfectly out of 3 2"x4"x8' boards that run $3 a piece at Home Depot (or $8 for the redwood) and a $20 pine tabletop, plus screws.

Also, thanks for the info on the cables, James. It is 1/8th in input into my PC, so I'll pick up that split cable and should be good to go!

That's a great stand ...$60 !!! total bargain