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#1795667 - 11/25/11 05:37 AM Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4809
I've just picked up Yamaha's new glossy brochure on their DP range, and it is instructive to compare it with the previous one. The CVP and CGP range are unchanged, but the term 'Pure CF Sampling' has been replaced by 'Pure CF Sound Engine'. And the new CLP range (CLP-430/440/465/470/480 and CLP-S406/408) have RGE (Real Grand Expression) Sound Engine: to quote - 'The grand piano Voices of a Clavinova were obtained by recording the sounds of a Yamaha concert grand piano that led to the creation of the CFX, the piano selected for a performance by the 2010 winner of the famed International Frederick Chopin Piano Competition. A single piano best suited for recording was selected and then tuned to the finest possible condition by a veteran piano tuner. All the sounds were recorded resulting in a sound that displays not only the beauty of each note, but the harmonized sound of a single piano.'

Interesting choice of words there - the term 'sampling' is nowhere to be found, unlike in the previous brochure. It seems to have been banished from Yamaha's lexicon. (Is that due to Roland's influence ? grin) And in the text for the 'CF Sound Engine', it doesn't mention the CF-IIIS at all, whereas in the old brochure it kept popping up. Is the new CLP range sampled from an actual CFX, or from a CF-IIIS that has been modified - or from an 'intermediate', unnamed piano?

I took the opportunity to play the CLP-470 and 480: the sound is certainly slightly different to that of the CVPs, but to my mind, it's still not quite the CFX sound I remembered from playing it a short while ago. Interestingly, the notice that was on top of the AvantGrand N1 (which I saw there about two weeks ago) which stated proudly that it's 'sampled from the Yamaha Concert Grand CF-IIIS' has been removed. Has the word gone around to all Yamaha dealers that the CF-IIIS (and 'sampled') is now persona non grata?

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#1795672 - 11/25/11 05:50 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Is the new CLP range sampled from an actual CFX, or from a CF-IIIS that has been modified - or from an 'intermediate', unnamed piano?


Maybe they sampled a V-Piano with the special 'Yamaha CFX' preset?

Seriously though, I think you're reading a little too much into a paragraph or two of brochure text.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1795674 - 11/25/11 06:01 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
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Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
... rich Corinthian leather

You have to give those poor guys in advertising some credit. They have to keep coming up with new, impressive sounding phrases to describe the same old sound. It's not an easy job.

... and on an even lighter note, I recently stumbled onto an advertising campaign that was new to me. There are many from which to choose, here's one ...



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#1795677 - 11/25/11 06:22 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: Kawai James]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4809
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Is the new CLP range sampled from an actual CFX, or from a CF-IIIS that has been modified - or from an 'intermediate', unnamed piano?


Maybe they sampled a V-Piano with the special 'Yamaha CFX' preset?

Seriously though, I think you're reading a little too much into a paragraph or two of brochure text.


My job isn't in advertising or media or public stuff, but I know enough of how these things work - when a word (or a piano) gets banished from a company's literature, it's usually because something is in the pipeline that they're preparing their customers for. I think it's very likely that the next brochure will have the CFX mentioned liberally, because all their DPs will by then be based on it. And modelling might be in the cards too (like Roland's SN series).......

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#1795683 - 11/25/11 06:44 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1717
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)

Quote:
Is the new CLP range sampled from an actual CFX,


No

Quote:
or from a CF-IIIS that has been modified


Yes and no... later CFIIIs slabs had a slightly different bridge design then earlier ones ..... but they were sold as the CFIIIs

Quote:
- or from an 'intermediate', unnamed piano?


Not really but a further extension of the new direction in bridge design was fully applied to the new CF range.

Yamaha offer the clearest statement when saying "the piano that led to the CFX" ...as clear as mud but technically correct.

CLP400's with RGE will sound different to CVP500's or CLP300's due to the deep layering and modeling aspects brought over from the C1 stage piano. In pieces with sudden and complex velocity changes the RGE board will outperform the older boards.

I doubt that Roland's modeling technology (only available on the highly flawed and expensive V-piano models) has made the slightest dent on Yamaha's range or development planning. Roland's Supernatural technology however (which is a combination of modeling behaviors and sample based sounds from a Steinway D) is a different story.... hence the RGE developments which is a similar technolongy.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1795716 - 11/25/11 09:39 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3780
Loc: North Carolina
As I read the statement, it says that the Clavinova voices were NOT taken from the CFX.
They were take from a piano that LED TO the creation of the CFX.

That's like glorifying a car by saying that it was once parked next to a Ferrari.
Quote:
The grand piano Voices of a Clavinova were obtained by recording the sounds of a Yamaha concert grand piano that led to the creation of the CFX, the piano selected for a performance by the 2010 winner of the famed International Frederick Chopin Piano Competition.
Is that the best they can say about their product?

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#1795767 - 11/25/11 11:43 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: Dr Popper]
kippesc Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I doubt that Roland's modeling technology (only available on the highly flawed and expensive V-piano models) has made the slightest dent on Yamaha's range or development planning. Roland's Supernatural technology however (which is a combination of modeling behaviors and sample based sounds from a Steinway D) is a different story.... hence the RGE developments which is a similar technolongy.


Do you know if the Steinway D that is purportedly in the Supernatural Roland Concert Grand is a Hamburg (that'd be my guess)? Where did you hear that the piano used by Roland was a Steinway D? I'd like to dig deeper into that information, but I've never seen anything official on this point. Finally, any idea what the Studio Grand acoustic source is? I don't think it's a Steinway. The bass section is very clearly a shorter grand -- maybe a 6.5 foot piano -- and it might pass for a Steinway. But the treble seems distinctly unlike a New York Steinway. It has a straightforward clean tone -- possibly like a Bosendorfer, though I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a chance to play a good Bosendorfer for any length of time.
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#1795778 - 11/25/11 12:05 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: MacMacMac]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As I read the statement, it says that the Clavinova voices were NOT taken from the CFX.
They were take from a piano that LED TO the creation of the CFX.

That's liking glorifying a car by saying that it was once parked next to a Ferrari.
Quote:
The grand piano Voices of a Clavinova were obtained by recording the sounds of a Yamaha concert grand piano that led to the creation of the CFX, the piano selected for a performance by the 2010 winner of the famed International Frederick Chopin Piano Competition.
Is that the best they can say about their product?



Is Yamaha trying to tell the truth and yet make a mundane piano seem great? smile

G

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#1795910 - 11/25/11 05:22 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I doubt that Roland's modeling technology (only available on the highly flawed and expensive V-piano models) has made the slightest dent on Yamaha's range or development planning. Roland's Supernatural technology however (which is a combination of modeling behaviors and sample based sounds from a Steinway D) is a different story.... hence the RGE developments which is a similar technolongy.

Perhaps I'm misreading your post, but I don't see Yamaha's RGE as technically similar Roland's SuperNATURAL.

I tested the Yamaha CLP-440 (which employs RGE) and it is audibly looped and stretched. I can hear a timbre change in the transition from attack sample to loop sample that is distracting. RGE might (?) have more layers than Yamaha's previous stuff, and there's that key release velocity thing which seems to be new and different, but I don't find any evidence of modeling going on, at least not on the level of SN.

IMO RGE is "Pure CF Sampling" (ala the CP1/5/50) with variable note release damping, maybe another layer, and that's about it. Same old heavy stretching (30 groups covering 88 notes) with attack & loop samples that are really just too short for the high end of their DP console line.
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#1795917 - 11/25/11 05:39 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
ChrisA Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I've just picked up Yamaha's new glossy brochure on their DP range, and it is instructive to compare it with the previous one. ...


All the terms they use "CF-IIIS", CFX, Pure CF Sampling are all completely meaningless made-up words. Why don't that just name them "Mary, Joe, Bob and Alice". It would be just as descriptive and easier to remember. It seems that all of the digital piano makers go out of their way to say nothing

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#1795958 - 11/25/11 06:50 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, don't forget that you 'only' tested the lower specification CLP-440. It could be that the more advanced technology Dr P is referring to has been reserved for the higher-end CLP-470/CLP-480 models.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1795966 - 11/25/11 07:09 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: ChrisA]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3780
Loc: North Carolina
Marketing. frown
Doesn't it get you all excited! frown
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
All the terms they use "CF-IIIS", CFX, Pure CF Sampling are all completely meaningless made-up words. Why don't that just name them "Mary, Joe, Bob and Alice". It would be just as descriptive and easier to remember. It seems that all of the digital piano makers go out of their way to say nothing.
Mary, Joe, Bob, and Alice?
How about Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe?

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#1796028 - 11/25/11 11:05 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, don't forget that you 'only' tested the lower specification CLP-440. It could be that the more advanced technology Dr P is referring to has been reserved for the higher-end CLP-470/CLP-480 models.

Sure, but wouldn't that make the RGE moniker completely meaningless?

Here is a comparison of the 480, 470, & 440 from the US Yamaha site: LINK. Everything under the "Voices | Tone Generation" section is exactly the same for all three models.
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#1796123 - 11/26/11 05:16 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: kippesc]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2608
Yes, the Roland V-Piano does model both the American Steinway "D" as well as the European Bosendorfer. Listen to Scott Tibbs, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

He plays a piece with the Bosendorfer preset.

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#1796262 - 11/26/11 12:43 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: dewster]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4809
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, don't forget that you 'only' tested the lower specification CLP-440. It could be that the more advanced technology Dr P is referring to has been reserved for the higher-end CLP-470/CLP-480 models.

Sure, but wouldn't that make the RGE moniker completely meaningless?

Here is a comparison of the 480, 470, & 440 from the US Yamaha site: LINK. Everything under the "Voices | Tone Generation" section is exactly the same for all three models.


I agree with you - the sound samples on all the RGE DPs are the same. I only tried the high end 470 & 480 (didn't see any point in playing the lower-end models) but noticed all the 'attributes' of pure sampling in them, nothing to indicate any modeling going on.

Incidentally, I don't understand why Yamaha still doesn't incorporate the 'let-off' or 'escapement feel' that Roland, Kawai and other brands have on their high-end DPs, when they've taken the trouble to have the keyweights graded. Unless somebody knows something different, the only way to get the let-off feel in a Yamaha DP is to buy one of the AvantGrands, yet that's the first difference (probably the only difference) a casual punter - especially a beginner pianist - would notice between the feel of a non-AG Yamaha DP compared to that of a real grand. The graded keyweights seems totally pointless when it's far less obvious when playing than the way the key goes down when pressed.

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#1796272 - 11/26/11 01:14 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3780
Loc: North Carolina
I feel the opposite. I think the grading is slightly important.

And I think the absence of let-off is a benefit, not a shortcoming.

Rather than have digital pianos emulate the let-off feel of an acoustic, I think an acoustic should eliminate the let-off feel entirely. That's probably not possible, so that much is moot.

But I don't think the let-off feel is a benefit.

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#1796289 - 11/26/11 01:54 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
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In an ideal world, all acoustics will have light keyweights and totally smooth key strike, slightly shallower travel than that of modern pianos (to facilitate fast runs, repeated notes and glissandi, especially of the one-handed octave variety as in Brahms's Paganini Variations) and no grading of keyweights. In fact, a bit like early grand pianos c1820, before Liszt & co. got in on the act and demanded more, much more power because they were the XFactor stars....

Grading of keyweight is an artifact of the acoustic key-hammer mechanism (as is the let-off feel), and the prestige manufacturers strive to minimize the difference. Emulating one but not the other flaw inherent in an acoustic grand is like being half a vegetarian (is that called an ovo-lacto vegetarian? grin)

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#1796384 - 11/26/11 06:34 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I agree with you - the sound samples on all the RGE DPs are the same. I only tried the high end 470 & 480 (didn't see any point in playing the lower-end models) but noticed all the 'attributes' of pure sampling in them, nothing to indicate any modeling going on.

Thanks for that first-hand feedback!

Originally Posted By: bennevis
In an ideal world, all acoustics will have light keyweights and totally smooth key strike, slightly shallower travel than that of modern pianos (to facilitate fast runs, repeated notes and glissandi, especially of the one-handed octave variety as in Brahms's Paganini Variations) and no grading of keyweights.

Shallower travel is one I haven't heard but it makes sense. And perhaps add to this list somewhat narrower keys to help smaller hands (as the majority of piano players don't have huge male concert performance hands) stretch farther.

But none of the physical key feel emulations (hammer action, let-off, grading) mean terribly much if the overall product is obviously not up-to-snuff in some way. The AG and the high end Clavinovas are marketed as no compromise products, but the reality is far from that sound-wise. It's been said that a sucker is born every minute, but how long can Yamaha's DP division trade on the good name and reputation of their AP division before their overall cred is tarnished beyond repair?
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#1796397 - 11/26/11 06:58 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3780
Loc: North Carolina
For as long as the competition does likewise ...
. . . How long can Yamaha's DP division trade on the good name and reputation of their AP division before their overall cred is tarnished beyond repair?

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#1796407 - 11/26/11 07:14 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: MacMacMac]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1717
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
They have no competition ..... they can do whatever they like ...
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1796416 - 11/26/11 07:40 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: Dr Popper]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1727
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
They have no competition ..... they can do whatever they like ...


Among Pro players using these things for gigging, they really don't........and they will probably continue "as is".
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#1796427 - 11/26/11 07:54 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Incidentally, I don't understand why Yamaha still doesn't incorporate the 'let-off' or 'escapement feel' that Roland, Kawai and other brands have on their high-end DPs, when they've taken the trouble to have the keyweights graded. Unless somebody knows something different, the only way to get the let-off feel in a Yamaha DP is to buy one of the AvantGrands, yet that's the first difference (probably the only difference) a casual punter - especially a beginner pianist - would notice between the feel of a non-AG Yamaha DP compared to that of a real grand. The graded keyweights seems totally pointless when it's far less obvious when playing than the way the key goes down when pressed.


It's not much of a feature, really. The little click you feel when letoff happens isn't a very important thing for playing in my opinion...more of an annoyance, if anything. Evidence that the piano isn't perfectly regulated. Something to be minimized in acoustics if possible.

Like a previous poster, I think the graded weights are a more important in making it like an acoustic. There can be a pretty noticeable apparent difference in key inertia as you go up and down an acoustic. It seems like this difference is greater than it is in even graded digital pianos. I'd much rather Yamaha implement graded weights on their high end stage pianos and Kawai jump on board with Yamaha and Roland implementing a third sensor, which actually affects your playing speed where repetitions are concerned.


Edited by gvfarns (11/26/11 07:57 PM)

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#1796432 - 11/26/11 08:08 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2608
Originally Posted By: bennevis
In an ideal world, all acoustics will have light keyweights and totally smooth key strike, slightly shallower travel than that of modern pianos (to facilitate fast runs, repeated notes and glissandi, especially of the one-handed octave variety as in Brahms's Paganini Variations) and no grading of keyweights. In fact, a bit like early grand pianos c1820, before Liszt & co. got in on the act and demanded more, much more power because they were the XFactor stars....


Can anyone play the following piece well on an acoustic grand, let alone a digital instrument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyzzAV9GhHQ

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#1796447 - 11/26/11 09:26 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: gvfarns]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3498
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: gvfarns

It's not much of a feature, really. The little click you feel when letoff happens isn't a very important thing for playing in my opinion...more of an annoyance, if anything. Evidence that the piano isn't perfectly regulated. Something to be minimized in acoustics if possible.


Erm, no... just no. The best grands in the world have this "notch". It's simply a part of the working mechanism.

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#1796452 - 11/26/11 09:47 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: ando]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ando
Erm, no... just no. The best grands in the world have this "notch". It's simply a part of the working mechanism.


Certainly true. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing or that manufacturers and technicians do not try and minimize it. In a well regulated and functioning piano it's hardly noticeable.

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#1796464 - 11/26/11 10:17 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: gvfarns]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3498
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: ando
Erm, no... just no. The best grands in the world have this "notch". It's simply a part of the working mechanism.


Certainly true. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing or that manufacturers and technicians do not try and minimize it. In a well regulated and functioning piano it's hardly noticeable.


I would dispute that technicians are actively trying to minimise it. Technicians try to adjust the action to operate as efficiently as it can. The notch is in the design itself, it will always be there. When the action is properly regulated the notch is unobtrusive, but it's untrue to suggest that technicians try specifically to remove the escapement notch. They know it will always be there. Moreover, if a technician actually somehow removed it from a piano, the player would not thank him for it because it is a feature of all grand pianos. You wouldn't want your piano to be different from all the others you play. It's not something to be irritated by or changed, it simply is. Players have accepted it for centuries and they can even use it to guide their soft playing.

This talk about it being so undesirable is your own feelings/theories/opinions masquerading as fact - both about the objectives of piano technicians and also about the way people feel about the escapement feel. I accept that you don't like it or recognise its usefulness, but it's really not a big issue for players. Go and have a look on the Pianist Corner and see how many complaints there are about the piano's action. There aren't any. They just accept that that is how a grand piano functions.

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#1796467 - 11/26/11 10:29 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: ando]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2176
Loc: Sydney, Australia
FWIW, I did a bit of research into this, and I mostly agree with Ando, however it's a complex, and somewhat grey, area.

Technicians don't try to remove it, because it's inherent in the design. However, there HAVE been attempts to change the design to reduce the let-off friction, and the most recent one I'm aware of is the Steingraeber "rolling knuckles" - the knuckle on the hammers can actually rotate, so that when the jack is moved sideways from under the knuckle, there is less friction. So, you might think that this proves that it's a bad thing, because a reputable piano manufacturer has come up with this idea to reduce the friction. Unfortunately, it's not that simple - pianists don't necessarily like it, and the rolling knuckles are an option, too.

There is a technique of playing called "playing off the jack", which involves gently pressing down the keys to the let-off point (i.e, where the resistance increases - the "notch"), and then playing forcefully. On a very well regulated piano, this results in extremely softly played notes, even though that final press is done quite hard. Regardless of everything else, this is one technique that would be harder to use if the let-off friction were removed, because the player would not know how far down to press the keys initially, due to the lack of tactile feedback.

Greg.

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#1796487 - 11/26/11 11:04 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: sullivang]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: sullivang
There is a technique of playing called "playing off the jack", which involves gently pressing down the keys to the let-off point (i.e, where the resistance increases - the "notch"), and then playing forcefully. On a very well regulated piano, this results in extremely softly played notes, even though that final press is done quite hard. Regardless of everything else, this is one technique that would be harder to use if the let-off friction were removed, because the player would not know how far down to press the keys initially, due to the lack of tactile feedback.


Very interesting. I guess I still think the graded weights and third sensors are more important. It is my opinion that the let-off jitter is undesirable overall. Playing off the jacks is not in my technique. I can imagine other people who want it, though.


Edited by gvfarns (11/26/11 11:07 PM)

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#1796522 - 11/27/11 12:50 AM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: pv88]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1717
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: pv88


Can anyone play the following piece well on an acoustic grand, let alone a digital instrument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyzzAV9GhHQ


I could but I'd need a bottle and a half of Crown Royal and a few nice lines first .... but after that ...I can play anything (at least I think I can )
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1796688 - 11/27/11 12:20 PM Re: Obfuscation or preparation? Yamaha's new DPs unveiled [Re: bennevis]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bennevis
'The grand piano Voices of a Clavinova were obtained by recording the sounds of a Yamaha concert grand piano that led to the creation of the CFX, the piano selected for a performance by the 2010 winner of the famed International Frederick Chopin Piano Competition. A single piano best suited for recording was selected and then tuned to the finest possible condition by a veteran piano tuner. All the sounds were recorded resulting in a sound that displays not only the beauty of each note, but the harmonized sound of a single piano.'

And despite all that flowery prose, the lowly P-155 and stately CLP-440 employ virtually identical sound generation (via the DPBSD): the same stretch group count and sizes, the same attack and loop sample lengths (within the margin of error), same audible layer switch point, same passing / failing of key and pedal tests, etc. They in fact, they have the exact same spectral signatures, which means the sample set is from the same recording session and processed in the same way:



Figures 1a & 1b. Spectral pan view of the stretch test, mid notes, normalized to -1dB to increase clarity, Yamaha P-155 above, Yamaha CLP-440 below. Same stretch group locations and sizes, same phase signatures within groups, etc.

So from a sound technology standpoint, I think RGE boils down to "we took a P-155, added note-off-velocity-based release samples, weak key sympathetic resonance, a much higher price tag, and some pretty words in a brochure" and that's it.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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