Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
78 registered (Annette Schmidt, AndrewJCW, agraffe, Bachus, 14 invisible), 1010 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1799148 - 12/01/11 09:46 PM Narrow octaves for thirds closer to just?
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
In another thread, Ian Russell spoke of, and linked to, Colin Pykett's discussion of widening and narrowing the octave.

http://www.pykett.org.uk/impureoctaves.htm#Summary

We've often discussed temperaments that widen the octave to achieve equal beating octaves and M5's here. And the well temperaments create M3's that are closer to just in some keys than M3's in ET. Meantone, of course, places more emphasis on M3's being closer to just, too.

But has anyone tried working with narrowing the octave to create less wide M3's for an ET or quasi-ET, per Pykett? (The UT's and meantone assume at least a pure octave and often, in practice, a stretch to a 2:1 or wider octave, yes?) Is it possible to narrow the octave and slowly stretch in expanding past the temperament? Would the M5's just beat too much against the octave? (Not sure what intervals, if any, could be made to be beat equally.) And, clearly, the 2nd partial of the lower octave note will beat against the fundamental of the higher note, so inharmonicity would be an immediate problem. Jeff--an insurmountable problem?

(Bill--My first thought was that such a temperament would that take us in the direction of a temperament ordinaire--a meantone that tried for better M5's. But even a temperament ordinaire starts with the assumption of a "perfect" octave.)


Edited by Jake Johnson (12/01/11 10:18 PM)

Top
(ad 568) PTG Convention Norfolk
PTG Convention Norfolk
#1799183 - 12/01/11 10:57 PM Re: Narrow octaves for thirds closer to just? [Re: Jake Johnson]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1549
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
Many years ago, a studio tuning was done with no stretch, (bass player/producer wanted to see if that would solve the problem that inharmonicity causes with tuning for other instruments). We often tune a very tight bass on recording studio pianos so that the bass can tune with the piano and not disagree with the electronic tuners that so many guitar players use. Somebody mentioned that it was easier to tune to a Rhodes than an acoustic piano....
The piano sounded as dead as can be. Regardless of what happens to the thirds, the totally unstretched octaves are more noticeable than anything else.
Regards,

Top
#1799187 - 12/01/11 11:01 PM Re: Narrow octaves for thirds closer to just? [Re: Jake Johnson]
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
You'd have to shrink the octaves too drastically to get a noticeable effect on the thirds.

Kees

Top
#1799251 - 12/02/11 03:12 AM Re: Narrow octaves for thirds closer to just? [Re: Jake Johnson]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2500
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Jake Johnson
In another thread, Ian Russell spoke of, and linked to, Colin Pykett's discussion of widening and narrowing the octave.

http://www.pykett.org.uk/impureoctaves.htm#Summary

Remember Colin Pykett had organs and other instruments in mind as well as pianos.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm

Top
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1800719 - 12/05/11 08:16 AM Re: Narrow octaves for thirds closer to just? [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 5353
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
You'd have to shrink the octaves too drastically to get a noticeable effect on the thirds.

Kees


What he said!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1800825 - 12/05/11 01:24 PM Re: Narrow octaves for thirds closer to just? [Re: Jake Johnson]
RonTuner Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1873
Loc: Chicagoland
I'd lump this under "subtle, but noticeable to some"...

Those of you that have read "Grand Obsession" will remember the author's quest to recapture a tuning - one that ended up being built on a narrow temperament octave and then stretched out from there to make up the difference so the piano still had "life" as opposed to Ed's experiment from above.

How much narrow? Well, a "normal" approach to that size piano would have the temperament octave a bit wide or using a pure 4:2 octave match. (4th partial of A3 matching with the 2nd partial of A4) Instead the temperament octave in the book was a bit narrow of a 4:2 octave...

"Calm, yet resonant" are some of the terms used to express this type of tuning.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com


my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Why It's Impossible to Tune a Piano!
aka, why you should be nice to your tuner.
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Hammond A100 for Sale!
PRICE DROPPED!
(Think B3)
Hammond A100 for sale!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad 125)
Sweetwater $55,000 Giveaway
Sweetwater $55,000 Mic Locker Giveaway
(ads)
PD - WNG - MH
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tours
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Technique Book?
by schlaigs
05/29/16 10:32 PM
Yamaha Clavinova Troubles
by StartwithBach
05/29/16 08:58 PM
Dave Frank/Pat Martino duo - Lean Years
by Dfrankjazz
05/29/16 07:45 PM
Bösendorfer 200 disklavier—is this E3 PRO?
by Corvus
05/29/16 07:09 PM
ear training
by Sylwek
05/29/16 02:03 PM
Forum Stats
83,809 Registered Members
44 Forums
173,021 Topics
2,529,097 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2016 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission