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#1803887 - 12/10/11 06:11 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
This all comes down to control. The longer the key (the greater the distance on both sides of the fulcrum), the more control you have. (Now, I'm sure there a sweet spot regarding the percentage of the length on one side of the fulcrum compared to the other side, but with grand pianos we're dealing with some constraints and the comparison is between a six footer and a nine footer.)

Now, I don't know if I would pass a blindfold test on guessing the specific actions, I just know that all things being equal, I'd have more finesse on the action from a nine footer.
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#1803894 - 12/10/11 06:23 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
kippesc Offline
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Posts: 407
Loc: United States
I owned a Steinway M (5' 7") before trading it in for a B (6' 10.5"). That was when I first discovered that one can, in fact, feel the difference between the actions. I don't have a clear preference between the two, but they are different.


Edited by kippesc (12/10/11 06:23 PM)
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#1803896 - 12/10/11 06:35 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
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Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
You are a SERIOUS nitpicker!

OK, now back to your short-keyed, mechanically-disadvantaged, recording-challenged, 438 lb, £8000, quadraphonic looper! smile


I'm planning to conduct a jovial little parade at my place one day soon. Dewster, if you're not too busy shattering dreams and destroying illusions held dear by wide-eyed optimists on your side of the pond, be a dear and pop over and rain on it will you? Otherwise the positivity would probably be unsettling.

By the way, I so wish I'd paid £8000 for my AG! And "quadrophonic" - you're showing your age there!

Steve
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#1803924 - 12/10/11 07:46 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
36251 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
I'm no expert on any of this but I'd say that the action for the AG matches the level of sampling engineering you can achieve with today's technology. If it had a 9' grand action wouldn't you need some new development which would allow for more variations of the sound of a piano so you'd have something greater to control?
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#1803930 - 12/10/11 07:53 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
I'm having trouble finding a reference, but I thought AG is supposed to have many more possible velocity levels internally than the 128 provided by MIDI. Isn't that right? Yamaha "greyscale" or something?

Did I get this confused with another product?


Edited by gvfarns (12/10/11 07:54 PM)

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#1803944 - 12/10/11 08:28 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: dewster]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1745
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Well... the piece is headed, "First Impressions of Yamaha's N2...". That's kind of hard to misread.

The full title of the article is "Piano or Pretender? First Impressions of Yamaha's AvantGrand N2". Even a quick first impression could easily reveal the audible looping on the low notes if one were looking for immediate evidence that the AG somehow fails in the complete realism department. Real pianos don't loop. Call me a serious nitpicker, but for me it's a pretender because you can't use it for critical intimate recording - though by most accounts a very well done one as these things go. In conclusion, Chick Corea and Glenn Gould something something.


There's no doubt that the N1 is not a Fazioli 228. But then it's not >$200k in cost and 7-1/2 feet long either.

The clear consensus among pros is that the AG action is far better than anything else available on a non-acoustic, and better than virtually all acoustic uprights and some grands. And the sound, if not perfect, is pretty danged good.

One might ask a lot more for the money. For example, I might like like Scarlett Johansson turning pages... but where are you going to get that deal?


Edited by ClsscLib (12/10/11 09:39 PM)
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#1804012 - 12/10/11 10:30 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: 36251]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
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Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: 36251
I'm no expert on any of this but I'd say that the action for the AG matches the level of sampling engineering you can achieve with today's technology. If it had a 9' grand action wouldn't you need some new development which would allow for more variations of the sound of a piano so you'd have something greater to control?

Are you suggesting they've hobbled the AG action to keep it on roughly the same technological level with the looped internal sound generation technology? Or that you would need more MIDI velocity resolution with a longer key action?
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#1804098 - 12/11/11 02:44 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: dewster]
36251 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: 36251
I'm no expert on any of this but I'd say that the action for the AG matches the level of sampling engineering you can achieve with today's technology. If it had a 9' grand action wouldn't you need some new development which would allow for more variations of the sound of a piano so you'd have something greater to control?

Are you suggesting they've hobbled the AG action to keep it on roughly the same technological level with the looped internal sound generation technology? Or that you would need more MIDI velocity resolution with a longer key action?
First off - I love my N2. If there are loops or any other imperfections with the action, I don't hear or feel them and I'm not looking for them. IMO - this is like other posts say "better than any upright and many grands."

As to my layman's post - yes velocity standards, I believe, haven't changed since first introduced so my thought was if you had an action from a 9' that is suppose to give you more control over dynamics, it only makes sense that it would be better suited attached to some new velocity standard.

I realize that Yamaha has taken sampling farther with the AG and I certainly get that feeling when I'm playing it but what if they could match twice as much nuance of a 9 footer?
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#1804199 - 12/11/11 09:23 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: gvfarns]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I'm having trouble finding a reference, but I thought AG is supposed to have many more possible velocity levels internally than the 128 provided by MIDI. Isn't that right? Yamaha "greyscale" or something?

Did I get this confused with another product?

There's some chatter about that on this thread, but I don't see references so I can't tell the origins of the info other than PW member athomik, who states:

Originally Posted By: athomik
You might have a problem taking advantage of the speaker placement if the software can't handle 4 channel sampling into 12 separate audio channels, as you get with the AvantGrand. The software would also only respond to 128 step key velocity whereas the AvantGrand uses continous (grey scale) key and hammer velocity internally.

The "12 separate audio channels" to me sounds like simple frequency band separation via filters (tweeter, woofer, sub). *Yawn* as James would say. If the 4 channel thing wasn't true it would be a bombshell.

The grayscale thing strikes me as meaningless hype. I imagine most keyboards resolve velocity to more than 127 levels in order to have no missing MIDI codes after running it through thresholds and curves and such. Higher resolution velocity measurement is virtually free, just extra bits in the counter they're using as a timer.

The real trick would be high resolution position tracking, you could do literally anything with that.
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#1804210 - 12/11/11 10:01 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
This all comes down to control. The longer the key (the greater the distance on both sides of the fulcrum), the more control you have.

Just to be clear, minimization of mechanical advantage variation only depends on the length from the playing end of the key to the pivot point.

This whole short keys in the AG thing has me intrigued. Is it difficult to access the the front of the action in the AG? For reference I just popped off the fall board on our 6.1' Young-Chang and accessed the action well enough to measure the pivot point of a white key to the playing end. It measures 9 1/2 inches and is constant over the entire keyboard. The black key pivots are located about 3/4" farther in:


From a white key pivot to the end of a white key - 9.5".


From a black key pivot to the end of a white key - difference in pivot point locations is 0.75".
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#1804219 - 12/11/11 10:35 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
And the distance from that pin all the way to the hammer is ... ?
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#1804223 - 12/11/11 10:44 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
And the distance from that pin all the way to the hammer is ... ?

Dunno. I was probably unclear? When I said "playing end" I meant the end you play with your fingers, not the end with the hammer.
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#1804274 - 12/11/11 12:39 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
For comparison, based on the picture, it looks like the MP10 keys are about 7 1/4 inch for white keys and...hard to tell...6 inches for black keys maybe? (to the pivot point from the front of the key).


Edited by gvfarns (12/11/11 12:39 PM)

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#1804280 - 12/11/11 12:59 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I'm having trouble finding a reference, but I thought AG is supposed to have many more possible velocity levels internally than the 128 provided by MIDI. Isn't that right? Yamaha "greyscale" or something?

Did I get this confused with another product?

There's some chatter about that on this thread, but I don't see references so I can't tell the origins of the info other than PW member athomik, who states:

The "12 separate audio channels" to me sounds like simple frequency band separation via filters (tweeter, woofer, sub). *Yawn* as James would say. If the 4 channel thing wasn't true it would be a bombshell.

The grayscale thing strikes me as meaningless hype. I imagine most keyboards resolve velocity to more than 127 levels in order to have no missing MIDI codes after running it through thresholds and curves and such. Higher resolution velocity measurement is virtually free, just extra bits in the counter they're using as a timer.

The real trick would be high resolution position tracking, you could do literally anything with that.


Interesting. Yeah I guess it makes you wonder whether the sound is really resolved at better than 128 levels or whether velocity is just mapped to 128 and then 128 blends of however many sampled layers are available in the sounds.

When I first started with digital pianos I was shocked that midi only has 128 levels and thought it was quite a limitation. After having played software pianos for a while I'm not so sure. I'm coming around to the belief that our ear couldn't discern the difference between midi and some kind of true grayscale with far more velocity levels possible. I guess I don't have a way to test, but 128 certainly works well enough for my ears and fingers.

On a slightly different note, I've been thinking about kippesc's comment a bit ago (link) that his N2 will not play off the jack as his acoustic and Roland will. If the N2 will not register a key press from that height, does that mean the sensors are not configured or capable of registering very fast repeated notes? In other words, is it possible that the double escapement in an AvantGrand (though physically present) does not actually work because the sensors won't pick it up as a hammer strike?

If so that would be a significant strike against AvantGrands, since PHAIII and RM3 actions both allow this type of repetition and the real grand action is a major AG selling point.

Anyone with experience or thoughts on that?


Edited by gvfarns (12/11/11 01:02 PM)

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#1804420 - 12/11/11 05:48 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
If the N2 will not register a key press from that height, does that mean the sensors are not configured or capable of registering very fast repeated notes?

Start listening from 6:15 to the end.

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#1804432 - 12/11/11 06:09 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
@Kippesc:
RE: the "playing off the jack", I'm wondering whether it's simply that the double-escapement position sensor is not positioned exactly at the point where the jack starts to be pulled sideways by the whippen. One thing you could do is to make absolutely sure that it has ANY double-escapement sensing, by doing the following test:

1. Play a note normally, and hold the key down.
2. While the note is still sounding, slowly release the key until the sound stops. Note the point in the return at which the sound stops.
3. Lift off the key completely
4. Play the note again, and hold the key down
5. While the note is still sounding, slowly release the key to a point just below the point where the note is known to stop. If you go too far and the note does stop, lift off completely and go back to Step 4.
6. With the key just below the note termination point, and with the note still sounding, press down on the key again forcefully. If a new note sounds, you have double escapement sensing. If a new note does NOT sound, you probably do not have double-escapement sensing.

My Casio PX-330 passes the above test, and so do tri-sensor Yamaha Clavinovas and Roland PHAIII-based DPs. (it would be extremely bizarre if your N2 did not pass this test)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/11/11 06:15 PM)

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#1804437 - 12/11/11 06:21 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
@Dave: RE: that performance, I don't think I hear any extremely soft playing that might be a test of "playing off the jack". And whilst it is very impressive overall, parts of it sound sloppy to me, but I am not familiar with that piece. I.e - in some parts where he is rapidly repeating, it sounds like there are missing notes - it just sounds sort of slurred and "wrong" to me. (anyone else notice that? I am listening from 6:15 but stopped when it went back to the narrative.)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/11/11 06:21 PM)

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#1804443 - 12/11/11 06:32 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Though right around where I notice missing notes, he starts saying it makes more sense to miss some notes and connect with the audience than to play perfectly and bore them.

Wish I had the option. Most often I miss notes *and* bore them. smile


Edited by gvfarns (12/11/11 06:32 PM)

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#1804461 - 12/11/11 07:15 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: sullivang]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: sullivang
@Kippesc:
RE: the "playing off the jack", I'm wondering whether it's simply that the double-escapement position sensor is not positioned exactly at the point where the jack starts to be pulled sideways by the whippen. One thing you could do is to make absolutely sure that it has ANY double-escapement sensing, by doing the following test:

1. Play a note normally, and hold the key down.
2. While the note is still sounding, slowly release the key until the sound stops. Note the point in the return at which the sound stops.
3. Lift off the key completely
4. Play the note again, and hold the key down
5. While the note is still sounding, slowly release the key to a point just below the point where the note is known to stop. If you go too far and the note does stop, lift off completely and go back to Step 4.
6. With the key just below the note termination point, and with the note still sounding, press down on the key again forcefully. If a new note sounds, you have double escapement sensing. If a new note does NOT sound, you probably do not have double-escapement sensing.

My Casio PX-330 passes the above test, and so do tri-sensor Yamaha Clavinovas and Roland PHAIII-based DPs. (it would be extremely bizarre if your N2 did not pass this test)

Greg.


The N2 passes this test just fine and very realistically.
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#1804463 - 12/11/11 07:20 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Good. So, you could now determine the minimum return amount to allow a repeat. If that point is above the point of increasing jack/whippen resistance, that might explain why you can't "play off the jack". If you are pressing down very slowly so you can stop the notes at the "notch", it may have registered a note-start BEFORE you reach that point, and by the time you actually complete the stroke, it has decided that the notes have been played too softly for the hammers to strike the strings, even if your mechanical hammers really do strike your rubber stop. smile
(there's a point - are your hammers actually hitting the stop, or not? If not, maybe it needs regulation!)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/11/11 07:22 PM)

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#1804473 - 12/11/11 07:36 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
kippesc Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
sullivang, I will check the MIDI codes and report back. The instrument doesn't need regulation. Its touch is even and consistent from bottom to top. In general, if it needed regulation, there'd be unevenness in the touch and SOME KEY would play off the jack, just not all keys. It is, of course, possible that the whole thing is out of wack, but I doubt that is the case. (But who knows, maybe another AG owner can get theirs to play off the jack.)


Edited by kippesc (12/11/11 09:26 PM)
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#1804528 - 12/11/11 09:24 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
kippesc Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
sullivang, Using Pianoteq's MIDI info, the AG sends an "Aftertouch Value 127" for the note being played when you try to play off the jack, but it does not send any actual note velocity. When you release the key, the AG sends an "Aftertouch Value 0." In a software piano, you could assign that info a low velocity and achieve the "playing off the jack" effect. However, it's a little jumpy, if you approach the letoff point with any speed, the AG sends the Aftertouch Value 127 without needing the key to be pressed all the way to the bottom. But if you approach the letoff point carefully (and don't trigger the Aftertouch info prematurely), you'll get the playing off the jack effect.
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#1804589 - 12/11/11 11:47 PM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Thanks!

So, if you press a key very carefully, and stop just before the "notch", you can hold it there for as long as you like, right? If you then press down forcefully, a very soft note will sound. Do you get an Aftertouch AND a Note-On in this case, or just one or the other? Anyway, from your description, it appears that the re-trigger sensor (the middle sensor in a tri-sensor action) is positioned slightly above the "notch", which could be considered a small deficiency in the design, I suppose.

I thought the Avangtgrand would use the hammer for the velocity sensing, though. It looks like it might be using the key. (although it's hard to be sure yet)

Greg.

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#1804602 - 12/12/11 12:19 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: sullivang]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: sullivang
[i] So, if you press a key very carefully, and stop just before the "notch", you can hold it there for as long as you like, right? [ii] If you then press down forcefully, a very soft note will sound.

(i) Yes, you can hold it there for as long as you like; it is as though you've done nothing, pressed nothing. (ii) Not correct. You cannot "play off the jack."

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Do you get an Aftertouch AND a Note-On in this case, or just one or the other?

If you slowly and gently depress to the notch, then, from that point, smash the key hard, from the notch-point to the bottom of the range, you get Aftertouch only. You do not get a note on. Again, you cannot "play off the jack."
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#1804604 - 12/12/11 12:23 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: kippesc]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: kippesc
But if you approach the letoff point carefully (and don't trigger the Aftertouch info prematurely), you'll get the playing off the jack effect.


What do you mean by this, exactly? Are you saying that if you stop just ABOVE the let-off point, you can then play a note forcefully, and a soft note will sound?

Greg.

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#1804615 - 12/12/11 01:07 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: sullivang]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Originally Posted By: kippesc
But if you approach the letoff point carefully (and don't trigger the Aftertouch info prematurely), you'll get the playing off the jack effect.


What do you mean by this, exactly? Are you saying that if you stop just ABOVE the let-off point, you can then play a note forcefully, and a soft note will sound?

Greg.


I was talking hypothetically about a situation where, using the AG purely as a MIDI controller, you might reassign the Aftertouch 127 value to a very soft Note-on value (velocity 1, maybe?). In that event, if the AG sent an Aftertouch 127 value, Pianoteq (for example) would play a very soft note (Note-on 1).

The problem with reassigning the Aftertouch 127 value would be, I presume, that you would no longer be able to depress a note silently in order to lift the dampers -- in order, say, to utilize string resonance or to achieve what Dewster would call "silent replay."

Furthermore, the Aftertouch 127 value does not work in the same way as playing off the jack would work. It seems to be a signal that is sent at the point where the key has travelled to the notch, but not necessarily bottomed out.

In any event, now that I've thought about this a little more, I don't think reassigning Aftertouch 127 to, say, Note-on 1 would work very well at replicating playing off the jack. I hereby retract the portion of my previous post that you've quoted. I don't think that will work well.

I have to say, this is all getting fairly abstruse, even for my taste. The only reason I made the observation about "playing off the jack" was that I was amazed that the Roland RD-700NX achieved the effect. Is that because Roland intended to achieve the effect or is it just a happy coincidence? It's such a weird technique. As we all know, sometimes performers invent techniques that instrument designers may never have anticipated (playing a violin with the wood of the bow; playing an electric guitar near the speakers to intentionally achieve feedback; a glissando on a clarinet; a horse whinny on a trumpet; rolling a brush on a snare drum; banging on the cymbal stand with a drum stick; castrati). I put playing off the jack in that category. A nice trick to know that I'll probably never employ and would never have expected to find in a DP.

Note: There are no intentional double entendres in this post. I didn't invent these terms.
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Roland RD-700NX

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#1804620 - 12/12/11 01:33 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
RE: the Roland, perhaps they simply positioned the middle sensor slightly after the let-off feel rubber flap? (why not design it as authentically as possible?) It doesn't seem to be such a hard thing to get right, even though it is admittedly an extremely subtle detail. Perhaps, though, if one tried hard enough, it would be possible to make the Roland fail as well. For example, there might be a tiny window of travel between the middle sensor and the let-off flap, where a note can be re-triggered without the let-off feel. This would not be authentic, because it would represent a piano that is repeating without the jack returning under the hammer knuckle.

Thanks for your clarification and patience, anyhow.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/12/11 01:38 AM)

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#1804678 - 12/12/11 06:14 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: Matt Peckham]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
Very curious?

Is this discussion to pluck holes in the AG as being "not worth the money, not as good as soft pianos, not as good as EP hammer actions?" How often do people play off the jack "whatever that is?" Don't get me wrong, I'm staying up with this thread cause I like my AG so much it's nice to hear people discussing an axe I own for a change.

For me practicing is more meaningful and jamming with friend with Aebersold is also closer to the real experience of gigging.

I don't think I could sit at the best grand piano (if I had room and money) and still get as useful of practice sessions. For me, the grand piano will be for performance, where I will hopefully be very comfortable after priming my skills on my AG.
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AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1804682 - 12/12/11 06:31 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: 36251]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: 36251
Is this discussion to pluck holes in the AG as being "not worth the money, not as good as soft pianos, not as good as EP hammer actions?" How often do people play off the jack "whatever that is?" Don't get me wrong, I'm staying up with this thread cause I like my AG so much it's nice to hear people discussing an axe I own for a change.


Mate, just enjoy your N2. This particular argument is going around in ever decreasing circles - perhaps it will end when the participants disappear up their own bottoms...
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1804705 - 12/12/11 08:02 AM Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2... [Re: EssBrace]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: 36251
Is this discussion to pluck holes in the AG as being "not worth the money, not as good as soft pianos, not as good as EP hammer actions?" How often do people play off the jack "whatever that is?" Don't get me wrong, I'm staying up with this thread cause I like my AG so much it's nice to hear people discussing an axe I own for a change.


Mate, just enjoy your N2. This particular argument is going around in ever decreasing circles - perhaps it will end when the participants disappear up their own bottoms...


I couldn't have said that better.

The next discussion will cover the imperceptible though extremely important air currents that arise from the movement of the hammers and how those currents effect the propagation of sound waves. The hammers in the AvantGrand are shaped differently and this subtle effect is lost. smile
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