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Originally Posted by Veritas
I decided to return that card to the retailer and I'll be ordering something with a little more umph. I'm thinking the XONAR Essence STX PCIe Sound Card looks pretty promising. Though I'll lose my ability to connect my controller via midi, I suppose I could just buy a PCI controller for that, or try the USB2 plug on the MP10.
The Presonus AudioBox costs $150.
The M-Audio Fast Track Pro costs $200.

Both of them have MIDI inputs.
Both connect to the computer via USB.
Both have mic/guitar inputs if you want them.
Both have input and output level controls.

I got the Presonus for $76 used on ebay.
The M-Audio Fast Track Pro generally sells for $90-$110.

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Quote

Don't get anything that fits inside a computer chassis. That is the worst type. You need a little box that connects via USB or Firewire. This will have "real" jacks and real control knobs and if you are lucky LEDs to indicate level. and also a good build in headphone amp. One that keeps being recommended is this:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AudioBoxUSB
The above site is not a bad place to buy it either. They have excellent tech sort (the store has a large recording studio on-site so their people have experience) and free extended warranty and free shipping. (the video ad is great, they run over the little box with a truck)

The other good thing about USB/Firewire is when you replace the computer you can keep this.

How did you pick the Asus card? You are shopping at the wrong store. Go to a place where they sell musical instruments, pianos, microphones and such. Don't bother with PC video game equipment.


I guess from my perspective as an IT Administrator, I’m having a difficult time understanding how an external device could be superior in performance to an internal card, especially if the card is running a PCIe1x or higher bus? The throughput for any external interface doesn’t even come close in terms of the available bandwidth until you start talking SATA and that’s not applicable to this discussion in terms of audio processing devices, and with the exception of USB3.0 and Firewire you’re limited to half-duplex

I can understand an external box being superior in terms of overall audio functionality, but in terms of performance and efficiency I don’t quite buy it. At the end of the day, the only thing I’m looking for the device to do is process the audio produced by the Ivory 2 library, and possibly other libraries in the future, and pump it out to headphones or monitors.

I picked the Asus based on the specs of the card, in that, its supported sample play back resolution is a max 192Khz/24bit, whereas most of the other cards I’ve looked at, as well as the AudioBoxUSB noted above, are 48kHz or 96kHz /24bit.

Portability for me isn’t really a concern that I need to be weary of, as my controller is 80lbs in and of itself and I’m not really designing this to be mobile. Again, the entire purpose of this particular computer is to process the sound library, that’s what I’ve designed it to do, and that’s the only thing it’s going to be doing. And in terms of if and when I need to replace the computer, it’s not as though I’m soldering the card to the board smile

Thanks for thoughts, all!

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External boxes do not have superior performance in the throughput sense. Performance isn't an issue. In fact, most external interfaces use USB 1.1 rather than 2.0 because the speed is simply not necessary for audio applications.

However, there are lots of voltages and EM waves floating around inside the case, and these can cause noise in the output and especially the input (recording) of the card.

Inasmuch as an internal card underperforms in terms of latency or something it's the driver's fault, not the hardware.

The presonus and m-audio (also behringer and focusrite) are simply tried and true. There's a question mark over cards that you don't know have been used for this purpose.

The main reason to get an external card is that external is the more common way these things are used, so most of the good cards for this purpose are external. But you might get good results with an internal card.

Last edited by gvfarns; 12/12/11 07:53 PM.
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I guess from my perspective as an IT Administrator, I’m having a difficult time understanding how an external device could be superior in performance to an internal card,

I can understand an external box being superior in terms of overall audio functionality, but in terms of performance and efficiency I don’t quite buy it. At the end of the day, the only thing I’m looking for the device to do is process the audio produced by the Ivory 2 library,


You say "as an IT Administrator". So yu are thinking in terms of data. But now try to think like an electrical engineer who works on analog equipment designs. Al the important parts of the audio interface are analog that is that part the where a $900 box differs for a $35 box

Yes. most of the advantage of the external box is user facing features. But also the box can have "real" size jacks, for example 1/4 TRS one per channel.

Also the inside of a digital computer is electrically very noisy. The power supply is "horrible" and noisy as they get. Typically the PCI card is not even in a shielded box. it is just a bare PCB card.

And then in the real world, the external boxes are simply made to better specs. It does not have to be that way but it is. What matters is the analog circuits that live between the jacks and the digital part. The good external boxes will use discreet transistors and/or larger better opamps. Little things like the physical size of a resistor determine it's noise floor. (has to do with the statistics of large numbers) Physically larger is best.

Also a physical/analog volume control knob has a real effect on sound quality. You need a real analog volume control some place in your system. Any digital control, say with a mouse. Has to reduce dynamic range. It controls volume by doing "math" on the samples reducing their range. For best dynamic range you have to leave all the digital controls at max and use an analog volume control. It is easier to do that with an external box.

All that said the bottleneck in your sound is likely (1) the speakers and (2) the room acoustics. I doubt you are yet to the point where the power supply that drives to D/A converter is the limiting factor. And most of these fine point apply to recording not playback. We can stand non-perfection in playback.

Jacks and cables do matter and the little slot in the back of a PC is just not big enough for the better connectors and cables so they have to use 1/8" stereo and RCA. No room for XLR or 1/4" phone. the 1/8th inch plug may not be a problem but the tiny cable is. Cable capacitance the resistance is determined by physical size. It's just physics

There is a lot more theory. Things like the over all temperature of the enclosure

Lastly look who makes this stuff and the experience of the company and the company "culture". All the engineers are competent but if you spend your life doing only pro audio and hanging out around recording studios you think different from an engineer who does computers and audio as a side line. Not only that your boss and his boss think differently too if they have grown up around audio

Last edited by ChrisA; 12/12/11 08:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
Quote
I guess from my perspective as an IT Administrator, I’m having a difficult time understanding how an external device could be superior in performance to an internal card,

I can understand an external box being superior in terms of overall audio functionality, but in terms of performance and efficiency I don’t quite buy it. At the end of the day, the only thing I’m looking for the device to do is process the audio produced by the Ivory 2 library,


You say "as an IT Administrator". So yu are thinking in terms of data. But now try to think like an electrical engineer who works on analog equipment designs. Al the important parts of the audio interface are analog that is that part the where a $900 box differs for a $35 box

Yes. most of the advantage of the external box is user facing features. But also the box can have "real" size jacks, for example 1/4 TRS one per channel.

Also the inside of a digital computer is electrically very noisy. The power supply is "horrible" and noisy as they get. Typically the PCI card is not even in a shielded box. it is just a bare PCB card.

And then in the real world, the external boxes are simply made to better specs. It does not have to be that way but it is. What matters is the analog circuits that live between the jacks and the digital part. The good external boxes will use discreet transistors and/or larger better opamps. Little things like the physical size of a resistor determine it's noise floor. (has to do with the statistics of large numbers) Physically larger is best.

Also a physical/analog volume control knob has a real effect on sound quality. You need a real analog volume control some place in your system. Any digital control, say with a mouse. Has to reduce dynamic range. It controls volume by doing "math" on the samples reducing their range. For best dynamic range you have to leave all the digital controls at max and use an analog volume control. It is easier to do that with an external box.

All that said the bottleneck in your sound is likely (1) the speakers and (2) the room acoustics. I doubt you are yet to the point where the power supply that drives to D/A converter is the limiting factor. And most of these fine point apply to recording not playback. We can stand non-perfection in playback.

Jacks and cables do matter and the little slot in the back of a PC is just not big enough for the better connectors and cables so they have to use 1/8" stereo and RCA. No room for XLR or 1/4" phone. the 1/8th inch plug may not be a problem but the tiny cable is. Cable capacitance the resistance is determined by physical size. It's just physics

There is a lot more theory. Things like the over all temperature of the enclosure

Lastly look who makes this stuff and the experience of the company and the company "culture". All the engineers are competent but if you spend your life doing only pro audio and hanging out around recording studios you think different from an engineer who does computers and audio as a side line. Not only that your boss and his boss think differently too if they have grown up around audio


All very good points! I would never claim to be an audio engineer: full, part, or any other time. laugh I'm simply an IT professional looking at it through the only lens I have, that being published specifications on system hardware capabilities.

I totally agree that components which are not generally limited by psychical size and form factor have the potential to yield higher quality products. If this was a profession or stage configuration going to a multi-thousand dollar speaker system concerns about signal noise and such would be a concern, but for me as an end level consumer that isn't something that I considered. Perhaps that speaks to my undiscriminating taste, ignorance of subject matter, or both smile I fully admit to be a fish out of water here, I'm just trying to expand my knowledge base.

I appreciate the enlightenment!

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What sells most people are simple user interface issues, not technical stuff.

1) Most people have notebooks or something else with no internal slots (Mac Mini) and have no other option.

2) the box and it's volume control can sit on top of the piano and you can banish the computer to some place far away

3) not having to reach around in back of a computer to plug in headphones, can switch between headphones and monitor while seated at piano.

BTW you don't need $1,000 speakers. a $100 pair of AKG K240 studio headphones is more than enough to hear every little defect.

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@Veritas: If that ASUS card meets it's specs when it's actually working in your computer, IMHO it will be absolutely fine. (I particularly like the headphone amp part of it) It actually looks like a very good card - on paper. ;^)

Just btw, I have an older M-Audio Delta 66, which is a PCI based card with a breakout box with full sized 1/4" connectors. I've always been happy with with it's performance, and I've never had any problems with noise/interference. I don't use it much at the moment because it's in a slow desktop machine - I now use a laptop.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 12/12/11 09:36 PM.
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For what it's worth; I use a Tascam US-122L usb audio/midi interface. I got the crackling and popping stuff with the driver that came with it. I downloaded the newest driver from their website and still got the problem. Then, I searched for and installed every older driver I could find until I found one that solved the problem. So much for newer is better, again.

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For the interested, I received the ASUS card a few days ago and have finally gotten around to getting it installed. The card works great with the M audio monitors I purchased, and I have to say I'm very impressed with the playability and sound quality of the Ivory samples now that I have the hardware to support it

I'm still tweaking the sounds, I feel like I prefer the Steinway over the Bosendorfer, and certainly over the Yamaha...but the sounds a little warm for my taste.

Anyway, sample below of me just messing around with a phrase of the first Christmas sound that came to mind.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions all, I really have appreciated it!

http://soundcloud.com/1a2b3c/ivory2testsample

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Nice one!

Just btw, I see that Stereophile give that card a big thumbs up:

http://www.stereophile.com/computeraudio/asus_xonar_essence_ststx_soundcards/ (I see that it actually has a full sized 1/4" headphone socket - yes?)

Greg.

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Originally Posted by Veritas
I'm still tweaking the sounds, I feel like I prefer the Steinway over the Bosendorfer, and certainly over the Yamaha...but the sounds a little warm for my taste.

Agreed, with respect to your general preferences. The Yamaha is really odd. I'm not sure I like the tuning or the voicing of the instrument, but maybe I'll land on something that works. The Bosendorfer seems a little bit boring, but, again, maybe I'm not able to get it adjusted correctly. I wish I'd logged more time on those instruments to know if Ivory accurately represents them. This disk was recorded on a Bosendorfer http://www.amazon.com/Leif-Ove-Ands...p;ie=UTF8&qid=1324078904&sr=1-22

I think the Bosendorfer Recital preset is a place to start to get the sound on the Andsnes disk. But my adjustments are a work in progress.

The Ivory Italian Grand is at least as good as the Steinway. The uprights are a novelty item, albeit fun. (If you want to hear a tubby old upright bass, that would be the Hume upright.)


Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX
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