Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 37 of 46 < 1 2 ... 35 36 37 38 39 ... 45 46 >
Topic Options
#1686314 - 05/28/11 10:41 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Are you sure?

They gutted it like a fish. Are large software houses good for anything but buying up the best shareware, turning it into hide glue, and selling it back to us for a hefty profit?

From: http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/895/cpsid_89588.html

Adobe Audition 3.0 features not implemented in CS5.5

Editing and interface

Shortcut bar
Preview in Files panel
Command-line playback of audio files
Advanced scripting support (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, recordable Favorites address most scripting tasks)
Spectral Pan and Spectral Phase views
Top and Tail file viewing
Appending audio files (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, copy and paste from one file to another)
Audition-specific clipboards
Find Beats command
Add Silence between markers
Beat, CD track, CD index, and BWF-J markers

CD

CD burning (alternatives include Nero Burning ROM, Roxio Creator or Toast, Windows Media Player, and Apple iTunes)
File > Open command for CD tracks on Windows (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, use Extract Audio from CD command)
CD database support

Sound generation and recording

Tone and noise generation
Timed record mode
Loop recording of multiple punch-in takes

Multitrack

SMPTE and ReWire synchronization
MIDI support
Control surface support
Recordable track parameter automation (Write, Touch, Latch modes)
Default multitrack sessions
Session sample rate conversion (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, rate is fixed when you create session)
Multitrack input gain (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, adjust via hardware)
Clip Duplicate command (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, enable clip looping and drag to create repititions)
Loops that adjust to session tempo and key changes
Time-stretching clips
Grouped clips (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, manually select multiple clips)
Clip > Align commands (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, use snapping)
Rejoining split clips
Fade Envelope Across Selection command for crossfading clips in separate tracks
Insert > Empty Audio Clip command
Hidden clips commands
Session metronome
Session notes

Video

Video thumbnails in multitrack sessions
Video export

File formats

8-bit signed (*.sam)
64-bit doubles (*.dbl)
ASCII Text Data (*.txt)
Audition Loop (*.cel)
Audition Session (*.ses) Note: From Adobe Audition 3.0, save sessions in XML format to open them in CS5.5. Note, however, that effects and time-stretching do not transfer.
SampleVision (*.smp)
Spectral Bitmap Image (*.bmp)
Windows Media (*.wmv, *.wma)

Effects

Effects panel (in Adobe Audition CS5.5, use the Effects Rack and Effects menu)
DirectX plug-in support
Binaural Auto-Panner
Convolution
Dynamic Delay
Dynamic EQ
Doppler Shifter
Echo Chamber
Envelope Follower
Frequency Band Splitter
Graphic Panner
Graphic Phase Shifter
Multitap Delay
Pan/Expand
Pitch Bender
Pitch Correction
Pitch Shifter
Quick Filter
Scientific Filters
Stereo Expander
Stereo Field Rotate
Vocoder
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Your Next Keyboard is at Sweetwater

Click Here


#1686317 - 05/28/11 10:50 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
This is the part I really love:

Tip: For a list of top new features, see What's New in Adobe Audition CS5.5. If you'd like to take advantage of new CS5.5 features without losing functionality from Adobe Audition 3.0, consider installing both versions.

Ah, yes, we all have nothing better to do with our hard earned money but to buy and install your expensive previous versions to regain features lost in your very expensive latest version.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1686332 - 05/28/11 11:35 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9064
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, that's rather unfortunate. No doubt this is related to the code rewrite and porting to OS X.

I guess you'll just have to continue using the previous version for your DPBSD checks, huh? wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1690844 - 06/05/11 09:57 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Apple Garageband Piano Review



Thanks to Piano World forum member "Soren Jorvang" we now have a DPBSD sample of the piano in Apple's Garageband application!

MP3: http://www.mediafire.com/?ofr332fr37lw96f
PIX: http://www.mediafire.com/?hd04mxeeheh90qi

Originally Posted By: Soren Jorvang
I wonder if the Garageband recording, being perhaps the single most widespread set of decent piano samples, might not be an interesting data point when comparing hardware pianos, in much the same way that Pianoteq is.

The Garageband grand piano samples take up 185 megabytes.




Figures 1A & 1B. Spectral frequency view (top) and waveform view (bottom, somewhat zoomed out to better show the envelope) of the layer test. The two velocity layer transitions are fairly abrupt in terms of both timbre and volume.

--------------------------
- Apple Garageband Piano -
--------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_apple_garageband.mp3
- Recorded by "Soren Jorvang".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal sympathetic resonance, though notes held through a pedal-up still have resonance.
- Seems to support half pedaling, though the effect is subtle and limited to a small range.
- Note decay times are fairly long.
- Long attack and loop sample lengths, looping for the most part isn't audible.
CONS:
- Fails the key sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the silent replay test (damps @ pedal up).
- Fails the quick partial damping test.
- Fails the late pedal partial damping test, though pressing the pedal up to 0.125s late won't damp.
- Looped, but pretty well done.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 4.5,7.2,6.6,7.2,4.8,2.0,?,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.6,2.0,1.8,2.5,1.8,0.8,?,? seconds.
- Very stretched, groups visible over the entire range, transitions audible over lows & mids.
- Stretch distances: 5,6,4,5,3,4(x4),1,2(x5),4(x3),5,4,4,5,8 = 23 groups.
- This is an unblended three layer sample set.
- Very audible velocity layer switch @ vel=54,90.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up "clunk" samples.
OTHER:
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce sound.
- Dynamic range: 35dB (vel=1:127).
- Dampered | undampered transition: G6 | G#6
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.3dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2011-06-01
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1690885 - 06/05/11 11:30 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9064
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hmmm...so why is it 185mb?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1690915 - 06/05/11 12:50 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Hmmm...so why is it 185mb?

- Average the sum of attack & loop sample times and you get 7.3 seconds.
- Multiply by the stretch groups (23) and you get 167.9 seconds.
- Multiply by 3 for the layers and by 2 for pedal up & down and you get 1007.4 seconds.
- Multiply by the sampling rate (44100), multiply by 2 for stereo, multiply by 2 (2 bytes per sample) and you get 177.7 MB.

Close enough for government work. wink
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1691052 - 06/05/11 05:26 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9064
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Cool, thanks for showing your working. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1702846 - 06/27/11 08:52 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
reza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Tehran, Iran
Dear Dewster, thanks for your efforts, I want to contribute in this project by sending you the results of running your requested test on Propllerhead Reason Virtual Piano: Steinway Nicewood D.

This is the link of the result MP3 file. I hope it helps your project.

dp_bsd_v2.0_reason_steinway_nicewood_D_01.mp3

Top
#1703272 - 06/27/11 10:08 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: reza]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: reza
... I want to contribute in this project by sending you the results of running your requested test on Propllerhead Reason Virtual Piano: Steinway Nicewood D.

Thanks reza! I sent you a PM...
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1706039 - 07/02/11 04:54 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
Dewster, this is an incredible undertaking! Thanks a lot for all the effort and the shear quality of what you have done here. Also, the nice objectiveness I have found on most members of this forum is most encouraging, and on that front you shine as well as others like Kawai James who, working for a particular company, can objectively advise over other brands' advantages. This surely speaks highly of the members on this forum. Thanks everyone!

I was thinking if there could be a way of quantifying the pros and cons to determine overall rankings of the pianos you have researched? There would be an obvious subjective side to this, but, if correctly commented, it could prove very valuable to people looking for their first purchase or, for example, a significant upgrade! With the info you have collected, one could infer things like: from sound X to sound Y the better quality is so mild that it does not justify an upgrade, or reversely: from sound W to sound Z the leap is so significant that its more than worth the price.

As it is, the info is there, but its very complex to weigh side by side three or four models one could be entertaining as options.

Thanks again for the incredible amount of work! I have found this very enlightening (and has me very glad of my recent purchase and specially with my ears that intuitively guessed what you have here researched so meticulously! smile )

Best regards,
Rafa.


Edited by RafaPolit (07/02/11 04:55 AM)
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

Top
#1707180 - 07/04/11 12:11 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: RafaPolit]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
I was thinking if there could be a way of quantifying the pros and cons to determine overall rankings of the pianos you have researched? There would be an obvious subjective side to this, but, if correctly commented, it could prove very valuable to people looking for their first purchase or, for example, a significant upgrade!

Thanks! I do think about this, making the reviews more quantified, accessible, and user friendly. As you say there is "an obvious subjective side" and I find so many things so subjective (does the looping of DP X sound worse than DP Y?) that I can only comment on whether I hear them or not, and if so whether they sound particularly good / bad to me. For any meaningful comparison I'd have to go back to many samples and spend a lot of time listening, and the reviews themselves already take many hours what with the analysis, archiving, back and forth with the (very gracious) donors, etc. and I'm rather loath to extend that.

The reviews are more of a list of high points and low points a prospective DP buyer should perhaps be aware of with the sound, and so they might want to focus some portion of their demo session on the ones that are most important to them.

I do have a clickable list in the first DPBSD post to all of the individual reviews, as well as a single text file at the share point that contains all of my text reviews. I suppose I could add some kind of spreadsheet or table. Do you (or anyone else here) have any specific suggestions?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1707377 - 07/04/11 05:55 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 796
By all means, don't do an overall quantitative ranking of all DP's. There are way too many different preferences - some value touch, others value dynamic range, yet others the blending of samples, or they check looping, stretching or whatever you include in your most valuable analyses (and in fact many parameters as well that you do not include). A spreadsheet for listing all major features of sounds might be helpful, but a one-dimensional rating would give rise to endless, artless, and meaningless debates (such as we can see on other forums for other products).

Keep your great work going!
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

Top
#1707759 - 07/05/11 12:11 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Roland RP201 Review



We now have a DPBSD sample of the Roland RP201 thanks to Piano World forum member "Derek Andrews"! To enable all resonance effects, Derek found it necessary to use the DPBSD MIDI file created by PW forum member "jmmec" for the HP-307, and further developed by "VivatRudolphus" for the FP-7F. Why it is Roland's wont to default these settings to "off" for MIDI playback is a mystery - particularly when turning them back on would stymie most people, even those armed with the RP201 MIDI implementation manual and past experience with SYSEX. Ah well, enough griping, and thanks again to jmmec and VivatRudolphus for doing the MIDI yeoman's work for us!

MP3: http://www.mediafire.com/?2ni22gzsbfbd424
PIX: http://www.mediafire.com/?5xjerssesjcee33

Derek has this to say about the RP201:

Quote:
As for comments about the RP201, here are some of my impressions from the perspective of a player:

-The action has a surprisingly "soft" and quiet feel to it, though the black keys rattle a little.

-The action does not feel very realistic, though it is pleasant to play. It is very light.

-There's something "off" about how sound is fed to headphones. It is actually somewhat unpleasant to hear in headphones. Which was a big turn off for me, that is one of the main reasons I need to use a digital piano.

-The piano sound is overall very good and an improvement over the older line of Roland pianos, but the layer switching on the RP201 is very noticeable once you realize it is there.

-The speakers of the RP201 only emit sound underneath the instrument so a lot of the high range may get obscured by the cabinet of the piano itself and the acoustics of your room. The HP302 by comparison allows the speaker sound to come out through a couple of speaker-like openings (I don't think they are separate speakers, rather than nice looking holes in the cabinet) and so higher range tones come out at you as though you were in front of a grand piano. The difference is rather striking. You can actually hear a difference if you close the keyboard lid on the HP302 (it gets muffled), on the RP201 this produces no difference that I can recall.

-The tone color seems uneven in the RP201, particularly in the bass. Some tones sound dull as though the hammers are soft, and other tones sound very bright as though the hammers are hard. Some tone color change is expected of course, but the change in color from note to note is sometimes too drastic on the RP201. The HP302 does a much better job.

Those are some of the things I mentally took note of for the week or two that I had the RP201.



Figure 1. Spectral phase view of the stretch test, low notes. Almost no stretching going on, which is good (and somewhat unusual for DPs other than Kawai these days).


Figure 2. Waveform view of the entire looping test. Decay times are rather short, looping is audible and fairly annoying.


Figure 3. Spectral pan view of the layer test compressed 20:1 to bring out detail. Three unblended velocity layers with very audible transitions.

----------------
- Roland RP201 -
----------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_roland_rp201.mp3
- "Grand Piano 1" patch (default).
- MIDI sequenced / audio recorded with Anvil Studio & laptop PC.
- Recorded by "Derek Andrews".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal sympathetic resonance test, the effect is pleasant sounding but fairly subtle.
- Passes the key sympathetic resonance test, strings both lower and higher subtly respond.
- Passes the quick damping test.
- Passes the half pedaling test.
- Passes the late pedal partial damping test up to the test limit of 0.5 seconds.
- Partially damped notes have timbre differences and when almost fully muted sound buzzy.
- This is an unblended three velocity layer sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the silent replay test, note damps @ pedal up.
- Rather short note decay time.
- Visibly and audibly looped.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.3,1.9,1.9,1.8,1.1,0.8,0.4,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 0.8,0.7,0.7,0.7,?,?,?,? seconds.
- Very lightly stretched, though not audibly so.
- Stretch distances: 1(x22),2,1(x6),2,1(x25),2,1(x29) = 85 groups.
- Velocity layer switches are visible and audible @ vel=64,104.
- Audible change in stereo image at both velocity switch points.
OTHER:
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- Dampered | undampered transition: F#6 | G6
- Dynamic range 46dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -2.7dB, noise floor @ -57dB.
- Date reviewed: 2011-06-26.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1707889 - 07/05/11 04:35 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
Dewster, where could I find this FP-7F "unlocking" midi? I was working on the SYSEX myself yesterday, but if I could reverse engineer the one made by VivatRudolphus, things could be much easier! smile

As for the quality rankings, I'm sorry I was not more precise! I was not talking about a: this DP is 9.7, this other is 7.5. But rather be able to rank their different abilities... again, subjectively. So, for instance have a 'looping pleasantness (or lack of looping)' ranking: pianoteq will score 10, perhaps that Casio I heard yesterday will rank 4, I don't know.

I was thinking it as a 'purchase research guide', of which I did one very recently. Of course I just now realized that this is a sound approach exclusive project. So there is no a lot of info on key action and other stuff like extra features: sequencer, recorder, sampler, etc. At any rates, I agree it would take a significant amount of time to do so, and I was in no way expecting you to just 'put out the hard work!' smile

Perhaps being able to have an excel file with checks on the different 'pass' tests you have so one can sort them from 'more complete' to 'less complete' and then have that 'sound pleasantness' (subjective) ranking so one could also take that into account? Don't know... seems like a lot of work, perhaps its better as you have and each one is able to judge by themselves and in their own 'sounding environment'.

Thanks a lot, as always, for this fantastic project.

Rafa.
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

Top
#1707905 - 07/05/11 05:07 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: maurus]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: maurus
By all means, don't do an overall quantitative ranking of all DP's. There are way too many different preferences - some value touch, others value dynamic range, yet others the blending of samples, or they check looping, stretching or whatever you include in your most valuable analyses (and in fact many parameters as well that you do not include). A spreadsheet for listing all major features of sounds might be helpful, but a one-dimensional rating would give rise to endless, artless, and meaningless debates (such as we can see on other forums for other products).

That's pretty much the way I'm thinking too. No point in a single number score. I may end up doing a spreadsheet of some sort.

Thanks for the input maurus!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1707915 - 07/05/11 05:20 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: RafaPolit]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
Dewster, where could I find this FP-7F "unlocking" midi? I was working on the SYSEX myself yesterday, but if I could reverse engineer the one made by VivatRudolphus, things could be much easier! smile

It's hiding in the pile of links listed in the FP-7F review. Here is a direct link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?o002og310mtnt6o

Good luck reverse engineering it! I was trying to do that a couple of days ago. I started getting dizzy and had to lie on the couch for a while with a martini. smile

This is as far as I got:

Channel 4, Bank 68 : Select GP1 (GP1 in RP201)

SYSEX format: F0, Roland, device, model, TX, addr high, addr mid, addr low, data bytes, checksum, F7
F0 41 10 42 12 40 00 7F 00 41 F7 : mode set (GM reset)
F0 41 10 42 12 40 01 30 24 6B F7 : reverb macro (off)
F0 41 10 42 12 40 03 00 00 40 00 7D F7 : EFX Type = Damper Resonance
F0 41 10 42 12 40 03 17 00 26 F7 : EFX Send Level to Reverb = 0
F0 41 10 42 12 40 44 23 00 40 32 40 32 22 53 F7 : Part EFX type (?)
F0 41 10 42 12 40 46 23 01 02 00 40 50 32 12 F7 : Part EFX type (?)


Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
As for the quality rankings, I'm sorry I was not more precise! I was not talking about a: this DP is 9.7, this other is 7.5. But rather be able to rank their different abilities... again, subjectively. So, for instance have a 'looping pleasantness (or lack of looping)' ranking: pianoteq will score 10, perhaps that Casio I heard yesterday will rank 4, I don't know.

I was thinking it as a 'purchase research guide', of which I did one very recently. Of course I just now realized that this is a sound approach exclusive project. So there is no a lot of info on key action and other stuff like extra features: sequencer, recorder, sampler, etc. At any rates, I agree it would take a significant amount of time to do so, and I was in no way expecting you to just 'put out the hard work!' smile

Perhaps being able to have an excel file with checks on the different 'pass' tests you have so one can sort them from 'more complete' to 'less complete' and then have that 'sound pleasantness' (subjective) ranking so one could also take that into account? Don't know... seems like a lot of work, perhaps its better as you have and each one is able to judge by themselves and in their own 'sounding environment'.

I appreciate your input! I think presenting all of the results in one spot would definitely make comparisons easier. I'll put some more thought into it.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1708195 - 07/06/11 12:56 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
I got a little further on the reverse engineering on those two question marks you have. The Part Effects Type:
So, from F0 to 12, we agree on what they represent. On to the address:
- 40-44-23 : Here the manual clearly states that the second pair is 4x, x being the midi channel, so those two are accessing different midi channels, your first "?" changes an effect on channel 4, the second one on midi channel 6. Both are PART EFX TYPE messages of 6 bit extensions.
- The first and second data pairs afterwards actually determine the type of effect:
1. 0040 - This is a Damper Resonance effect.
2. 0102 - This is an Enhancer effect.
- Now, the following pairs are, in order: EFX Macro, EFX Depth, EFX Control1 and EFX Control2.
- I am utterly lost as to what the 'macro' is! And why it is set to 32H (50 dec) for the Damper.
- The Depth is set to 40, which is 64. The problem is that some pairs actually use signed numbers, so this could be either half depth, or actually 0! unsure.
- The other parameters are the EFX Controls, which are defined as Depth (#1) and Damper Offset (#2) for de 0040 effect, the Damper Resonance, and Sensitivity (#1) and Mix (#2) for the Enhancer. So, the depth of the Damper is set to 32H (50) and the offset (volume of additional slight resonance when pedal is not pressed) is set to 22H (34) which is about half the maximum effect as well. For the enhancer, it is set to 40H (64) on the sensitivity and 32H (50) for the Mix level.

But I'd like to emphasize the fact that this enhancer is actually transmitting to channel 6!!! so is probably doing nothing to the test at hand.

That is what I have figured out so far, once the complexity of the midi implementation sunk into me, it would not be too hard to configure the effects if one knows what effect is actually being called into action! smile

Oh, and another thing!!! The Piano Designer features actually affect all 3 Grand Pianos, at least while performance is played through midi. The Rock Piano ignores the Piano Designer settings.

Hope someone else finds this as interesting as I do, but if not, I had a nice monologue with myself for about an hour smile

Rafa.



Edited by RafaPolit (07/06/11 12:57 AM)
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

Top
#1709636 - 07/08/11 11:50 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: RafaPolit]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
- Now, the following pairs are, in order: EFX Macro, EFX Depth, EFX Control1 and EFX Control2.

Ah, that's the key I was looking for, thanks!

Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
- I am utterly lost as to what the 'macro' is! And why it is set to 32H (50 dec) for the Damper.

When they say "Macro" I believe they mean a complete default setup. Unfortunately Roland doesn't decode or even list the possible parameters here.

Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
- The Depth is set to 40, which is 64. The problem is that some pairs actually use signed numbers, so this could be either half depth, or actually 0! unsure.

Depth is probably not signed, I'd bet this is set to 50%.

Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
But I'd like to emphasize the fact that this enhancer is actually transmitting to channel 6!!! so is probably doing nothing to the test at hand.

Good point, I agree. Probably put there for another instrument in the mix, or the vestige of another setup (MIDI cruft).

Now I'm feeling dizzy again, but it's too early for a martini! smile
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1718732 - 07/22/11 02:09 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Propellerhead Reason Steinway D Nicewood Review



Thanks to Piano World forum member "reza" we now have a DPBSD sample of the Reason Steinway D Nicewood!

MP3: http://www.mediafire.com/?nbsz16p414f7ni8
PIX: http://www.mediafire.com/?k328u0dd7e5u63r

reza has this to say about the Nicewood:

Quote:
This is the preset called "Nicewood" and include samples from 3 different microphones (jaz, floor, Bottom). I didn't change anything on this preset. There is not any reverb in the chain, but I can say that they are using various EQs in the path of each mic processing chain.

The heart of the Combinator is a sampler that allows you define as many layers that you want and select which samples should be used within each velocity range. I can see only one sample set for each Mic. Then You can assume that there is only one sample set for whole dynamics range but with 3 different mic.

Combinator allows you to change gain of each mic, then you can hear the sound from Pianist or Audience side.

Some germane analysis pix:

Figure 1. Spectral pan view of the stretch test, low notes. A fair amount of stretching going on, with 26 samples covering 88 keys.


Figure 2. Spectral phase view of the layer test. Four unblended velocity layers with two audible transitions.


Figure 3. Spectral pan view of the note C4. Long (as these things go) attack and loop samples make this one of the better loopers I've encountered.

------------------------------
- Reason Steinway D Nicewood -
------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_reason_steinway_d_nicewood.mp3
- This is the unmodified "Nicewood" preset for the Steinway D piano refill.
- Windows XP SP2 Laptop, NI Audio Kontrol 1 external soundcard, Reason V4.0.1.
- Recorded by "reza".
PROS:
- Passes the first pedal sympathetic resonance test.
- Nice long note decay time.
- Looped, but pretty nicely done.
- This is an unblended four velocity layer sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the second pedal sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the key sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the silent replay test - the note replayed at v=1 is audible.
- Fails the quick partial damping test.
- Fails the late pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the half pedaling test.
- Visibly but not very audibly looped.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 4.0,5.0,4.0,3.7,2.5,1.2,0.6,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 1.9,2.3,1.9,1.7,1.5,1.0,?,? seconds.
- Fairly stretched, both visibly and audibly.
- Stretch distances: 6,4,4,3,3,2,4,3(x16),4,4,6 = 26 groups.
- Velocity layer switches visible @ vel=56,86,114; audible @ vel=56,114.
- Fairly narrow dynamic range.
OTHER:
- Note mute sounds are a bit too loud.
- Notes played @ vel=1 play fairly loudly.
- Dampered | undampered transition: G6 | G#6
- Dynamic range 24.6dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -10.5dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2011-06-27.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1718960 - 07/22/11 08:06 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9064
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yawn...where's the Kronos?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1719002 - 07/22/11 09:16 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Yawn...where's the Kronos?

Sorry, I've got a bit of a backlog going.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1719318 - 07/23/11 01:47 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Yamaha CLP-440 Review



Thanks to Piano World forum member "Alexank" we now have a DPBSD sample of the new Yamaha CLP-440!

MP3: http://www.mediafire.com/?i8omdaej9s2gutj
PIX: http://www.mediafire.com/?74uvlvxl914cpsz

Alexank has this to say about the CLP-440:

Quote:
Please note that I am a beginner (since long time smile ) I bought my first weighted key DP in May 2010 which was Casio PX-130, So I will be comparing it mainly to PX130 and Galaxy Vintage D as far as sound quality.

I can describe the Instrument as highly consistent, well built and have a nicer look than the CLP300 series.

Compared with my Casio the major difference was the touch and it doesn't only feel different but it is consistent (playing harmonic notes is much more easier to control)

The sound is also very consistent when you play chromatic scales up and down (this is also an issue with Casio which is far from consistency)

The sound quality is better than Casio and CLP340 which I tried in the showroom with headphones, but of course Galaxy Vintage D sounds better although I found the latter also has consistency issues. Overall I am happy with the sound quality and the dynamic range but I was able to play little more softer ppp with Galaxy Vintage D.

The Smooth release effect is very nice specially with staccato passages (the notes cut off quickly and sounds better than Galaxy Vintage D also)

I found the speakers very adequate for a medium size room, I am preferring the on board speakers to my Yamaha RH5-MA headphones.
With maxed out volume you can hear very clear sound with no rattling or distortions, I am impressed with this.

MIDI to audio conversion is a useful feature but I found out that it has a preset volume which the main volume slider has no effect on. ( I need to experiment with other function settings)

I have observed one thing which I am not sure of. when I press the middle or left pedal and play I feel the pedal is vibrating slightly under my foot, although I am putting on headphones. And the funny thing that vibration stops if I turn down the volume to zero. (may be it was a day dream smile )

One big plus point is that all 28 instruments are very usable (on Casio the other instruments are a joke)

I noticed two booming notes (B1 and A4) but only through built in speakers, it is not very annoying but moving it away from the wall helped a little, but this is natural sympathetic resonance since when I play B1 even I feel the vibration on my bench.

The look and feel is very substantial and high grade.

Overall I am very happy, I just received it 2 days back and these are my initial impressions.


On their website, Yamaha says "The new CLP Series uses the RGE (Real Grand Expression) Sound Engine, the next-generation piano sound source. It improves upon the Pure CF Sound Engine... and then they go on to talk about their new "Smooth Release function" which varies note damping time with key-off velocity. There aren't any note-off events in the DPBSD mainly due to the limitations of the MIDI editor I use (Sonar and most other editors I've tried use note-on velocity=0 instead) so I'm not currently testing for this, but I assume it works. Using key off velocity to modulate note decay time is probably fine to a first order, but to do it 100% correctly one would use the key position, information impossible to obtain with the on-off sensors in the GH3 (and, to be fair, virtually all DP actions made by other manufacturers).

From what I do test for I will say that the CLP-440 main voice is almost exactly the same as the P-155: same spectral signatures, same attack and decay sample times, same stretch groups, same dynamic range, etc. The only difference I can see is in the the spectral pan view of the layer test. I'm not sure what this means, perhaps a difference in post-processing or in the layers themselves. FWIW the layer test itself has changed some from v1.3 to v2.0 (note-off is a bit earlier in v2.0 so as to separate and therefore better differentiate between note-off and note-on).

I'm a bit confused regarding the key action on this new series. Yamaha says they have the GH3 action, but they also say the "Keys have a long distance to the fulcrum" which makes it seem like this is a new feature? I'm all for longer fulcrums, short fulcrums being one of the main glaring deficiencies in DP actions.

A few analysis pix (see the ZIP file for more):


Figures 1A & 1B. Spectral pan view of the note C3, CLP-440 @ top, P-155 @ bottom (please note difference in time scales). Notes look and sound pretty much identical, with same attack and loop sample lengths. I believe the P-155 sample was compressed (by me, I can't recall) to bring out detail, whereas the CLP-440 sample was merely normalized (by me).



Figures 2A & 2B. Spectral pan view of the stretch test, mid notes, CLP-440 @ top, P-155 @ bottom. Notes look and sound identical, with same stretch groups throughout.



Figures 3A & 3B. Spectral phase view of the layer test compressed 20:1 to bring out detail, CLP-440 @ top, P-155 @ bottom. At least three blended velocity layers are visible for the CLP-440, P155 is inconclusive due to the jumblyness (Yamaha reports 4 layers).

------------------
- Yamaha CLP-440 -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_yamaha_clp440_piano1.mp3
- This is the first patch: "Piano 1".
- Setup: MIDI on flash drive in CLP-440 => headphone out => Macbook Pro / Audacity V1.2.5 record & convert.
- Recorded by "Alexank".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal sympathetic resonance, the effect is not very audible.
- Somewhat passes the key sympathetic resonance test, the effect is quite faint.
- Passes the silent replay test.
- Passes the quick partial damping test.
- Passes the late pedal partial damping test, note decay is caught even after 0.5 seconds.
- Passes the half pedaling test.
- Note decay times are fairly long.
- This is a smoothly blended multi-velocity sample set with at least three velocity layers.
- Timbre variation is fairly smooth with increasing velocity.
CONS:
- Obviously looped, both visibly and audibly over the lows and mids.
- Loop sample lengths are fairly short and static sounding.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.0,2.0,1.8,1.7,1.6,1.2,0.8,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 0.8,0.8,0.5,0.5,0.5,?,?,? seconds.
- Fairly stretched, visible over the entire range, audible over lows & mids.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4(x3),2,4,3(x3),2,3(x3),2(x4),3,1,3,3,4,2,2,3,5,4,3,3 = 30 groups.
- Visual velocity layer switch @ vel=90,114.
- Somewhat audible velocity layer switch @ vel=114.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up "clunk" samples.
OTHER:
- Tests almost identically to the P-155.
- Dynamic range 66dB (vel=1:127).
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- Dampered | undampered transition: F#6 | G6
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.1dB, noise floor @ -78dB.
- Date reviewed: 2011-07-21
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1719844 - 07/24/11 09:02 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
I just did a quick recording of our Young Chang with a Zoom H2 recorder. Played middle C as softly as I could (-42 dB) and as loudly as I dared (-12 dB) given the wooden construction and early hour here. Playing it that lightly was almost impossible, had to play the key maybe 10 times in order to get the hammer to hit once.

~ 30 dB dynamic range was less than I expected.

BTW, I'm not sure I'd recommend the Zoom H2. The left front microphone element in ours is about -2 dB mismatched with the right, it eats batteries, and my 8 GB SDHC card (Patriot, class 6) often distressingly goes missing at power-up (though the 1 GB SD card that came with it works fine). It takes somewhat longer to boot with the larger card (underpowered processor?). Postage stamp sized LCD (I knew that going in) that's difficult to read with these old eyes and without the backlight on (which helps eat the batteries even faster). Rather disappointing after reading all the glowing reviews on-line.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1719850 - 07/24/11 09:15 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 796
Hi dewster, I am not too surprised at this result. Playing my present instruments (an old but good Pfeiffer upright, a Yamaha P155 and a Nord Electro 3 with Boesendorfer Large) side by side I find the P155's dynamic range quite exaggerated in comparison with the acoustic piano. However, the Nord's dynamic range seems (intuitively) a little less than what I get from the piano, but that's comparing apples and oranges since I listen to the Nord with headphones. - But then I'd think a grand piano has more dynamic range than an upright - so a little surprise at your 30dB remains.



Edited by maurus (07/24/11 09:17 AM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

Top
#1719855 - 07/24/11 09:26 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: maurus]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: maurus
Playing my present instruments (an old but good Pfeiffer upright, a Yamaha P155 and a Nord Electro 3 with Boesendorfer Large) side by side I find the P155's dynamic range quite exaggerated in comparison with the acoustic piano. However, the Nord's dynamic range seems (intuitively) a little less than what I get from the piano...

Your observations make sense to me. The P-155 (like most Yamaha DPs) has an unrealistically large dynamic range of 62 dB. The two Nord voices I've tested are around 33 dB. Not sure why the Nord strikes me as having less dynamic range than our Young Chang, perhaps it's just me? Or perhaps it's a lack of sufficiently low velocity layers? I wish there was some way to quantify this.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1719965 - 07/24/11 12:42 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: dewster
~ 30 dB dynamic range was less than I expected.

I just did this again and got -50 dB and -9 dB (I'm reluctant to hit the note much harder than that for fear of damaging the mechanism or knocking the strings of this note out of tune), so:

~ 41 dB dynamic range - which is at the player position with the front section of the top flipped open so there is a large hole facing the player through which the sound can escape, but the top itself is closed.

It took me literally dozens of tries to get that -50 dB sound sample, and I can't help but imagine that this is a universal problem when sampling a piano. The variation from key to key when played at very soft velocities must make this a very difficult layer to capture with any consistency. Faced with this do engineers generally punt, i.e. only sample down to where the keys all respond similarly? If that's the case, then they are perhaps truncating much of the softer response from the sample set.

I also tried this with our RD-700NX through the speakers I just built and got -50 dB and -6 dB = 44 dB. This may be a good way to calibrate the DP & amp volume settings in order to make it sound the most realistic.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1719982 - 07/24/11 01:15 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Yawn...where's the Kronos?

This is a bogus post to see if I can trick James into checking this thread, looking in vain for a Korg Kronos review. wink
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1720093 - 07/24/11 05:10 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9064
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Duped.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1720096 - 07/24/11 05:19 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 796
Originally Posted By: dewster
~ 41 dB dynamic range


Ah, that sounds more like it. And, yes, to play pppianissimo is more difficult than hammering the keys... grin
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

Top
#1722629 - 07/28/11 08:28 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 323
Korg Kronos?

Originally Posted By: dewster
This is a bogus post to see if I can trick James into checking this thread, looking in vain for a Korg Kronos review. wink

8 samples per key... Prove them wrong man!

Originally Posted By: David Levinson
Forget the fat lady. You're obsessed with the fat lady. Just get us out of here!

Dewster has been dewsted...

Top
Page 37 of 46 < 1 2 ... 35 36 37 38 39 ... 45 46 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
97 registered (36251, A Guy, ajames, anotherscott, 27 invisible), 1147 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75984 Members
42 Forums
157155 Topics
2308129 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha "reconditioned in Japan"
by NanatoFour
8 minutes 13 seconds ago
New start - wish me good luck:)
by FarmGirl
Yesterday at 11:21 PM
Automatic Piano Players...
by tksler
Yesterday at 10:33 PM
No one home?
by ScottM
Yesterday at 08:05 PM
Prokofiev's 5 piano concertos, live: Marinskij/Gergiev etc
by fnork
Yesterday at 07:36 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission