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#1808844 - 12/19/11 06:08 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: cinstance]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 401
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: cinstance

The data for Chinese student is far from the reality. In the community I live, There are nearly 50 Chinese speaking students, almost all of them learn instrument of some kind (mostly piano) from early age. Only two of them have absolute pitch as far as I know (it is a very tight community that I know almost every kids). I think those data might apply to the preparatory school of the Central music Conservatory, which is far different from the general Chinese student population.


It shouldn't matter the skill level of the music student. It occurs spontaneously without external interference. But......

In Japanese AP papers it mentioned specific training for children. From memory it was like 50% for these non-tonal students. The author pointed out there is some prestige (misguided) into having AP and this may have an influence into getting into schools.

Would it be a leap that it could happen in China also? So maybe its skewed a little? We'll have to wait to conflicting data because I've never seen anything disproving it.

Also you have genetic studies showing an influence to the Chinese, Korean and Japanese irrespective of tonal language or environmental factors.

Its clear where to look for AP folk and the prerequisites. Measuring the strengths of some of the factors is another.

Totally irreverent to musical intelligence. These papers are filed under Neuroscience, linguistics and genetics etc grin
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#1808856 - 12/19/11 06:31 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 401
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: gooddog
I've always wondered how much training is associated with absolute pitch. A non literate, untrained 3 year old novice who has innate absolute pitch can't possibly know what "Ab" means. Identifying note names has to be trained. Is absolute pitch then the ability to remember specific frequencies?

I can’t find the paper at the moment but some papers will point out that the labelling happens naturally without specific training. You have until 7 or 8 to figure it out. But when you notice all that the C’s, D’s etc have the same chroma/texture it’s hardly an amazing feat to identify a note’s name.
Originally Posted By: gooddog

Does being around badly tuned instruments affect the development of absolute pitch?

If you search an AP paper with the word “error” you’ll jump to the statistical analysis of the types of errors AP folk make. With AP you are prone to a variety of errors. I vaguely remember an out of tune piano being blamed for the common G# error and compensation was made. But surely you hear other instruments other than your own?
Originally Posted By: gooddog

I also wonder if absolute pitch is an advantage or disadvantage.


Most AP papers never mention it because it is irrelevant . When it is mentioned it always in the negative. Hence the absence of studies trying the link AP to Musical Excellence. That nonsense only exists on forums and snake oil sites.

“However, contrary to the common belief that AP is a component of musical ability, it was found that AP listeners have difficulty in perceiving pitch relations in different pitch contexts, and in recognizing transposed melodies, as compared to listeners having no AP. These
results suggest that AP is irrelevant and even disadvantageous to music

Ken’ichi Miyazaki
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/25/6/426/_pdf

Sometimes regarded as a mark of musicianship, AP is in fact largely irrelevant to most musical tasks. Being unable to turn it off, many possessors of AP perform dramatically poorer at judging whether a melody and its transposed counterpart are the same, a task that non-AP musicians accomplish with ease
Daniel J. Levitin and Susan E. Rogers - Absolute pitch: perception, coding,
and controversies

Ps
Out of tune is out of tune. Who doesn’t notice it? You would notice it from the intervals?
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#1808965 - 12/20/11 12:12 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Devane]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Devane
Sometimes regarded as a mark of musicianship, AP is in fact largely irrelevant to most musical tasks. Being unable to turn it off, many possessors of AP perform dramatically poorer at judging whether a melody and its transposed counterpart are the same, a task that non-AP musicians accomplish with ease


Whoever wrote that doesn't really understand music, or did not major in music. Are you kidding? AP is extremely helpful. It helps with dictation, interval and chord recognition, and memory! If you have AP, once you memorize a progression of sounds/notes, your fingers actually move toward those keys naturally. You can also start playing a familiar piece/tune in the correct key without the score.

I teach kids music theory. Those with AP are at a distinct advantage. How can you (aurally) tell the different 7th chords without being able to recognize the individual notes?

When playing on a transposable keyboard, that would be a problem, because people with AP would have memorized a piece in its original key. If you just move the notes down a M2, it would cause major issues for people with AP.
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#1808969 - 12/20/11 12:24 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Devane]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Devane
Most AP papers never mention it because it is irrelevant . When it is mentioned it always in the negative. Hence the absence of studies trying the link AP to Musical Excellence. That nonsense only exists on forums and snake oil sites.


It is not "nonsense" that AP is helpful. Just because there are some quacks out there claiming that they can "teach" AP does not mean that AP is not helpful.

AP is irrelevant to certain aspects of music-making (phrasing, dynamics, tone production), but it is absolutely helpful in other aspects. What's not helpful to be able to look at a chord and immediately hear it in your head and recognize its quality?

I wonder if a study has been conducted to link AP with intonation for stringed instruments. My secondary instrument is violin, and my feeling is that AP helps one play in tune.
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#1808978 - 12/20/11 12:58 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
charleslang Offline
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Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Devane
Sometimes regarded as a mark of musicianship, AP is in fact largely irrelevant to most musical tasks. Being unable to turn it off, many possessors of AP perform dramatically poorer at judging whether a melody and its transposed counterpart are the same, a task that non-AP musicians accomplish with ease


Whoever wrote that doesn't really understand music, or did not major in music. Are you kidding? AP is extremely helpful. It helps with dictation, interval and chord recognition, and memory! If you have AP, once you memorize a progression of sounds/notes, your fingers actually move toward those keys naturally. You can also start playing a familiar piece/tune in the correct key without the score.

I teach kids music theory. Those with AP are at a distinct advantage. How can you (aurally) tell the different 7th chords without being able to recognize the individual notes?

When playing on a transposable keyboard, that would be a problem, because people with AP would have memorized a piece in its original key. If you just move the notes down a M2, it would cause major issues for people with AP.


From this I can conclude that you either have AP and don't understand how well those without AP can master the keyboard, or, if you don't have AP then you haven't mastered the keyboard very well yourself.

A person with well-practiced and learned relative pitch (with adequate exercise in all keys) only needs maybe one or two seconds to find the key of a piece they are hearing, and then their fingers move to the positions just as naturally as the AP musician. Only on the very first note will their finger not move to the very first pitch -- other than that they are as good as APers.

Those with RP can also recognize the notes in chords, once they find the key; which, again, is just a matter of finding one note to start with.
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#1808980 - 12/20/11 01:08 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
AP is extremely helpful. It helps with dictation, interval and chord recognition, and memory!
So does relative pitch.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
If you have AP, once you memorize a progression of sounds/notes, your fingers actually move toward those keys naturally.
Why is that easier with AP? Once I memorise a progression of sounds/notes, my fingers move towards those keys naturally too. I'm not sure what you're saying here.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
You can also start playing a familiar piece/tune in the correct key without the score.
Perhaps, but with relative pitch you can start playing a familiary piece/tune in any key without the score. Both useful skills, I would have thought.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
How can you (aurally) tell the different 7th chords without being able to recognize the individual notes?
By recognising the intervals.

In my experience, people with AP have a hard time understanding how people with good RP process music. Some just can't understand how we can hear and write down notes/chords/intervals, because we do it differently to those with AP.
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#1808981 - 12/20/11 01:09 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Devane
Sometimes regarded as a mark of musicianship, AP is in fact largely irrelevant to most musical tasks. Being unable to turn it off, many possessors of AP perform dramatically poorer at judging whether a melody and its transposed counterpart are the same, a task that non-AP musicians accomplish with ease


Whoever wrote that doesn't really understand music, or did not major in music. Are you kidding? AP is extremely helpful. It helps with dictation, interval and chord recognition, and memory! If you have AP, once you memorize a progression of sounds/notes, your fingers actually move toward those keys naturally. You can also start playing a familiar piece/tune in the correct key without the score.


Maybe, but none of those skills can't be accomplished without AP. Just because one person employs it doesn't mean others don't have an effective means of their own. It's not proof of anything other than they can name a note when they hear it and they can faithfully write down what they hear in the correct key. Not really that earth-shattering. You can write dictate a phrase, complete with modulations etc, with no trouble, AP or not. You might have to adjust the key later though. Usually when you write a piece down, you are aware of the first note and you go from there. It's inconsequential in the end. Life isn't an ongoing aural exam. You use the tools at your disposal. AP might be handy at times, but it's not a deal-breaker in any situation.

For what it's worth, when I was studying, my girlfriend who had perfect pitch struggled with aural tests a lot more than I did. It did not help with numerous tasks like transposition and even naming of extended chords. somebody with good relative pitch hears the bass note and all other notes on top of it as one big picture. People with absolute pitch don't process it this way. They tune into certain notes selectively and then work out the totality of the harmony after they have written down the notes they have heard. Where I was able to say, "thats an Amaj7b9#11" chord very quickly, she first had to run through the pitches she heard, then use theory to try and give it the correct name. There is a real difference in the way the mind processes the information when the primacy is on pitch levels rather than pitch clusters with many different intervals within them. People with good relative pitch are using very fine skills. They are able to process the "beats" between different notes and very accurately state the relationships between them. My girlfriend was extremely good at dictating melodies she heard, but wasn't as quick at transposition. Why? because she would tend to process what she heard as absolute notes with no attempt to label them for their tonal purpose. For me, I tended to listen to all notes in terms of their position in the harmony: I knew where the tonic, sub-dom, dominants, leading-tones were, etc, which made transposition much easier because all the mental work was already done. She had to go back to her perfectly dictated melody and analyse the interval structure from that.

Quote:

I teach kids music theory. Those with AP are at a distinct advantage. How can you (aurally) tell the different 7th chords without being able to recognize the individual notes?

Are you serious with that remark? I can't believe you are a teacher of aural/theory with beliefs like that. I always got 100% on all my chord/interval recognition tests. Go on: ask me how I did it. BTW, I believe that people who rely totally on AP should not be teaching aural skills. There is a definite art to teaching relative pitch. If done well, you can produce very attuned ears and minds.

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#1808982 - 12/20/11 01:10 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Cross-posted and agreed with charleslang smile ... and ando
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#1808988 - 12/20/11 01:29 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: currawong]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: currawong
In my experience, people with AP have a hard time understanding how people with good RP process music. Some just can't understand how we can hear and write down notes/chords/intervals, because we do it differently to those with AP.

Hey, I'm not here to bash RP!! I'm just sharing some of my thoughts coming from a person who has AP and worked with students of various levels of AP.

Maybe I just haven't worked with people with strong RP. But AP is very helpful in some aspects of music-making.

You serious about hearing intervals in various types of seventh chords? Maybe if they are all in root position, but what if the notes are spread out in open position? What do you listen for in particular? I think I posed this question before on PW and never got a satisfactory response.
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#1808992 - 12/20/11 01:40 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: ando
Are you serious with that remark? I can't believe you are a teacher of aural/theory with beliefs like that. I always got 100% on all my chord/interval recognition tests. Go on: ask me how I did it. BTW, I believe that people who rely totally on AP should not be teaching aural skills. There is a definite art to teaching relative pitch. If done well, you can produce very attuned ears and minds.


Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP? Don't put words in my mouth.
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#1808996 - 12/20/11 01:57 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
You serious about hearing intervals in various types of seventh chords? Maybe if they are all in root position, but what if the notes are spread out in open position?
AZN, if I'm given one note, I can identify all the others, whether they're played together, separately, spread out, whatever. That's what relative pitch is - identifying notes in relation to other notes. If I know that's a B, then I hear an F and I know (straight away, just as if I had AP smile ) that it's an F.
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#1808997 - 12/20/11 02:01 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP?
It did come across a bit like that. When you said "What's not helpful to be able to look at a chord and immediately hear it in your head and recognize its quality?" it implied that you can only do that if you have AP.
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#1808999 - 12/20/11 02:07 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: currawong]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
You serious about hearing intervals in various types of seventh chords? Maybe if they are all in root position, but what if the notes are spread out in open position?
AZN, if I'm given one note, I can identify all the others, whether they're played together, separately, spread out, whatever. That's what relative pitch is - identifying notes in relation to other notes. If I know that's a B, then I hear an F and I know (straight away, just as if I had AP smile ) that it's an F.


Yes, I agree that this can be taught, when a chord is played in isolation. But what if it's a chord progression, and we're asked to find out what the fourth chord is? It's not like triads where we can have supposed "feelings" attached to the triads (major/happy, minor/sad, etc.) When I've tried that with 7th chords with my non-AP students, it's a major struggle. Dominant 7th is easy to tell, as is minor-major 7th (the ugly one). Major 7th is somewhat easy to tell. But minor 7th, diminished 7th, and half-diminished 7th are bordering on the indistinguishable. Got any tricks to teach those???
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#1809002 - 12/20/11 02:13 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: currawong]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP?
It did come across a bit like that. When you said "What's not helpful to be able to look at a chord and immediately hear it in your head and recognize its quality?" it implied that you can only do that if you have AP.


I think you're over-reading.

I was reacting to a rather inane statement that AP is "irrelevant" to music-making. Irrelevant my foot. Moreover, I didn't ask for AP. I was born with it. I am proud of it and glad I (and many of my students) have it. It is disheartening to see professional studies disregarding it as a silly biological phenomenon with nothing really useful toward Musical Excellence.
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#1809006 - 12/20/11 02:22 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
mric Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 63
AZNpiano - how many of your students have AP?

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#1809008 - 12/20/11 02:28 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Yes, I agree that this can be taught, when a chord is played in isolation. But what if it's a chord progression, and we're asked to find out what the fourth chord is? It's not like triads where we can have supposed "feelings" attached to the triads (major/happy, minor/sad, etc.) When I've tried that with 7th chords with my non-AP students, it's a major struggle. Dominant 7th is easy to tell, as is minor-major 7th (the ugly one). Major 7th is somewhat easy to tell. But minor 7th, diminished 7th, and half-diminished 7th are bordering on the indistinguishable. Got any tricks to teach those???


Indistinguishable??? I can hear them without even trying. It's no different to hearing basic triads. That's my job as a musician. I sometimes sit in with jazz bands and don't know any of the tunes beforehand. Once you hear a progression once, you know what the chords are and what you can play over them. They are very distinguishable. You are only confirming my belief that somebody who relies primarily on AP should not be teaching aural skills to people without AP.

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#1809010 - 12/20/11 02:33 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: mric]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: mric
AZNpiano - how many of your students have AP?


Past and present - 14. Plus a few parents! I actually have them take the online test and print out the results.

I've said this before. Not all of them are great musicians (two are complete duds), but most of them are, in fact, quite musical, and can learn music quickly. I know the sample size is limited and everything I see/hear is merely anecdotal, but I have a strong suspicion that AP has something to do with musicality.
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#1809013 - 12/20/11 02:39 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
liszt85 Offline
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Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Correlation must not be mistaken for causation.

AP is usually found in people who've had very early musical training (various studies suggest that this is the case).

Early musical training usually translates to musicality (duh).

Therefore, you observe that AP possessors are highly musical and conclude that AP by itself causes people to be musical.

Hope you can see that the first sentence of this post makes sense in this context.
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#1809014 - 12/20/11 02:40 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: ando
Indistinguishable??? I can hear them without even trying. It's no different to hearing basic triads. That's my job as a musician. I sometimes sit in with jazz bands and don't know any of the tunes beforehand. Once you hear a progression once, you know what the chords are and what you can play over them. They are very distinguishable. You are only confirming my belief that somebody who relies primarily on AP should not be teaching aural skills to people without AP.


Hey, ando:

I have a personal suggestion for you. If you have nothing positive to say, don't say anything at all. Quit bragging about what you can do. It doesn't help anyone. How would you feel if I were to say people should not teach music UNLESS they have AP????

Now, if you have constructive ideas that one can use to teach non-AP students to hear 7th chords, I would love to hear it.
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#1809015 - 12/20/11 02:40 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: ando
Are you serious with that remark? I can't believe you are a teacher of aural/theory with beliefs like that. I always got 100% on all my chord/interval recognition tests. Go on: ask me how I did it. BTW, I believe that people who rely totally on AP should not be teaching aural skills. There is a definite art to teaching relative pitch. If done well, you can produce very attuned ears and minds.


Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP? Don't put words in my mouth.


I didn't say you said that RP sucks. I didn't put any words in your mouth. I was expressing my own thoughts on what you wrote. I am genuinely staggered that you can be so unaware of how things work for RP people. When you start saying that you have trouble teaching chord recognition to students without AP, I get warning bells. That means to me that you aren't teaching them to hear properly. With your AP students you are using a facility they already have (you didn't teach them AP). So all you are teaching them is how to name what they are hearing using the language of harmony.

With RP students, you have to teach them an approach to hear tonal hierarchy. It's vital that the teacher be intimately familiar with this way of thinking in order to transmit it to students. I realise you may not like hearing this, but that's how I see it. I'm not concerned for you, you are happy with your way of doing things, I'm concerned for the students who operate under your method in which you yourself claim that half-diminished chords etc are indistinguishable. You are putting forth this belief on the evidence that your students find them very hard, but to me, it's because you haven't showed them how to do it properly.

I defy you to show me one sentence where I put any words in your mouth. I just didn't agree with your own words.

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#1809016 - 12/20/11 02:43 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
Maxtor Offline

Bronze Supporter until Jan 01 2013


Registered: 08/14/11
Posts: 182
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: mric
AZNpiano - how many of your students have AP?

I've said this before. Not all of them are great musicians (two are complete duds), but most of them are, in fact, quite musical, and can learn music quickly. I know the sample size is limited and everything I see/hear is merely anecdotal, but I have a strong suspicion that AP has something to do with musicality.


You may be observing a situation where good pitch recognition makes it easier for amatuers to start, and they may be more likely to stick with it because they have some feeling (whether accurate or not) that they have a special advantage.
A student who is tone-deaf, on the other hand, will be much slower to start and is less likely to stick with it.

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#1809017 - 12/20/11 02:45 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: ando
Indistinguishable??? I can hear them without even trying. It's no different to hearing basic triads. That's my job as a musician. I sometimes sit in with jazz bands and don't know any of the tunes beforehand. Once you hear a progression once, you know what the chords are and what you can play over them. They are very distinguishable. You are only confirming my belief that somebody who relies primarily on AP should not be teaching aural skills to people without AP.

Quit bragging about what you can do.


I don't even see it as bragging. I was just the beneficiary of some good teaching. I believe anybody with a reasonable instinct for music can learn the system I learned.

Quote:
How would you feel if I were to say people should not teach music UNLESS they have AP????


That is pretty much how you came across. You claim certain things must be done with AP. Like identifying certain chords that you call "indistinguishable".


Quote:
Now, if you have constructive ideas that one can use to teach non-AP students to hear 7th chords, I would love to hear it.


It's very difficult to write down as very much of it is taught by interaction and singing, and the use of a white board. If I can think of a way to describe it, I will. I don't have time to try now because I'm running late for dinner!

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#1809018 - 12/20/11 02:46 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Devane earlier made a great post and he/she took the effort to actually quote from the research literature, the authors of which are highly qualified musicians (and professors) and scientists who've been working on some of these questions for decades now. For somebody to call them quacks or imply that they didn't major in music in college is nonsense.

I agree with ando. Maybe people with AP shouldn't be teaching non AP students. Maybe some people with AP shouldn't be teaching at all!
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Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1809020 - 12/20/11 02:51 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
When I've tried that with 7th chords with my non-AP students, it's a major struggle. Dominant 7th is easy to tell, as is minor-major 7th (the ugly one). Major 7th is somewhat easy to tell. But minor 7th, diminished 7th, and half-diminished 7th are bordering on the indistinguishable. Got any tricks to teach those???


My very modestly qualified first teacher (he didn't go to college for piano) taught me the differences between those chords when I was about 9 and I could identify them all by ear. Neither of us had AP.

As for tricks, all I remember him getting me to do was listen to these different chords for hours, trying to focus on the different qualities. As simple as that, no tricks. Just some decent amount of hard work. To learn this, he had me sit in a cabin with a keyboard, 2-3 hrs per day, for a couple of months (it was not just these chords). So there's your trick.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1809022 - 12/20/11 02:58 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: ando
you yourself claim that half-diminished chords etc are indistinguishable. You are putting forth this belief on the evidence that your students find them very hard, but to me, it's because you haven't showed them how to do it properly.


I can hear the 7th chords just fine. In my experience working with non-AP students, they have difficulty telling those last three 7th chords apart. Minor 7th, half-diminished 7th, and diminished 7th are difficult for students. Do you teach? Do you have success teaching this concept to many students? I'm not being facetious--just want to know how this skill can be taught.

So how do you teach aural skills properly? Can we focus on that? I can get non-AP students to hear intervals. Triads are mostly do-able. 7th chords is where the kids' ear training falls apart.

And you need to seriously get beyond the fact that I'm not helping my students. I have a genuine concern for them and their musical education, whether you believe it or not.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1809023 - 12/20/11 03:06 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: ando
It's very difficult to write down as very much of it is taught by interaction and singing, and the use of a white board. If I can think of a way to describe it, I will. I don't have time to try now because I'm running late for dinner!

Please do so when you are free. I do want to expand upon my teaching skills, especially when I know something isn't working.

I remember posing this same question the last time an AP thread evolved on the forum, but I didn't get any response.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1809034 - 12/20/11 04:05 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Wow. I hadn't opened this thread until just now and it's certainly blown-up into something larger than it's original intention.

I've been teaching for 30+ years and have had many students with AP. None of them have been more of an outstanding pianist/musician as a result of their AP (which cannot, by the way, be taught/learned...argue with me on this point all you like, but you'll be wrong).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1809076 - 12/20/11 07:27 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: stores]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: stores
(which cannot, by the way, be taught/learned...argue with me on this point all you like, but you'll be wrong).


if there is something you cannot learn assuming that everybody can't as well is silly and kinda arrogant.

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#1809112 - 12/20/11 09:22 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: liszt85]
cinstance Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 104
Originally Posted By: liszt85


My very modestly qualified first teacher (he didn't go to college for piano) taught me the differences between those chords when I was about 9 and I could identify them all by ear. Neither of us had AP.

As for tricks, all I remember him getting me to do was listen to these different chords for hours, trying to focus on the different qualities. As simple as that, no tricks. Just some decent amount of hard work. To learn this, he had me sit in a cabin with a keyboard, 2-3 hrs per day, for a couple of months (it was not just these chords). So there's your trick.


Didn't you just prove by yourself it is an advantage for AP to learn those cords.

My son seems never need to memorize a score. The score just comes to his memory. His teacher told me it is because of his AP. I do not know if there is any truth in it, but his teacher does have AP too, and was speaking from her own experience.

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#1809127 - 12/20/11 10:02 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: cinstance]
ralphwiggum Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 10
Loc: SF, CA
wow, so much pseudo-science and anecdotal statistics in this thread, i feel like i am watching fox news.

statistics are meaningless without knowing who and how many were sampled out of what total, what techniques were used, and how metrics were derived. Even then, it is all still probability which innately has a chance of being wrong. Especially when you are wrapping a stat around 6.8 billion.

"i know this one guy who told me he read a book once where they referenced a lecture where a guy said only .0001% of all 'white' people are AP." puhleeze.

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