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#1809216 - 12/20/11 12:15 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: stores]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: stores
. . . . None of them have been more of an outstanding pianist/musician as a result of their AP (which cannot, by the way, be taught/learned)...

+1

What musicians and composers "should" be learning, studying and practising is RP.
It's a waste of time and energy to try to achieve AP.
_________________________
I never play anything the same way once.

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#1809343 - 12/20/11 03:26 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: currawong]
David-G Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1228
Loc: London
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: rob.art
I agree, not all people will be able to re-learn but if you tone dead you shouldn't be seeking carrier in music anyway smile
Huh? You're saying people who don't have absolute pitch are "tone dead"? (or "tone deaf", if that's what you meant) Sounds like you don't know much about relative pitch.

I agree. But anyway, I don't suppose many people have a carrier in music.

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#1809432 - 12/20/11 05:03 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
jnod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 794
Loc: Toronto
Hey, another perfect pitch war! This time, let's get it settled once and or all eh?
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1809500 - 12/20/11 06:28 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: rob.art]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: rob.art
Originally Posted By: stores
(which cannot, by the way, be taught/learned...argue with me on this point all you like, but you'll be wrong).


if there is something you cannot learn assuming that everybody can't as well is silly and kinda arrogant.


I didn't say that IIIII couldn't learn it (which I can't) did I? Perhaps reading the entire post and digesting what you've read first will help prepare a better response next time.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1809518 - 12/20/11 06:58 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: cinstance]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: cinstance
Originally Posted By: liszt85


My very modestly qualified first teacher (he didn't go to college for piano) taught me the differences between those chords when I was about 9 and I could identify them all by ear. Neither of us had AP.

As for tricks, all I remember him getting me to do was listen to these different chords for hours, trying to focus on the different qualities. As simple as that, no tricks. Just some decent amount of hard work. To learn this, he had me sit in a cabin with a keyboard, 2-3 hrs per day, for a couple of months (it was not just these chords). So there's your trick.


Didn't you just prove by yourself it is an advantage for AP to learn those cords.

My son seems never need to memorize a score. The score just comes to his memory. His teacher told me it is because of his AP. I do not know if there is any truth in it, but his teacher does have AP too, and was speaking from her own experience.


How exactly did I prove that? I thought the AP possessor in this thread found these chords "indistinguishable" whereas almost everybody else here (who do not possess AP) did just fine distinguishing between those chords.


Edited by liszt85 (12/20/11 06:59 PM)
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1809530 - 12/20/11 07:19 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Whoever wrote that doesn't really understand music, or did not major in music. Are you kidding? AP is extremely helpful. It helps with dictation, interval and chord recognition, and memory! If you have AP, once you memorize a progression of sounds/notes, your fingers actually move toward those keys naturally. You can also start playing a familiar piece/tune in the correct key without the score.

I teach kids music theory. Those with AP are at a distinct advantage. How can you (aurally) tell the different 7th chords without being able to recognize the individual notes?

When playing on a transposable keyboard, that would be a problem, because people with AP would have memorized a piece in its original key. If you just move the notes down a M2, it would cause major issues for people with AP.

I'm sorry, but nothing you mentioned has much relevance. Memory, chord recognition, etc. of course that are important things. But MUSICALLY it means 0.

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#1809756 - 12/21/11 02:03 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: liszt85]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5279
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: liszt85
I thought the AP possessor in this thread found these chords "indistinguishable" whereas almost everybody else here (who do not possess AP) did just fine distinguishing between those chords.


That's just factually wrong.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1809772 - 12/21/11 02:56 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: AZNpiano]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: liszt85
I thought the AP possessor in this thread found these chords "indistinguishable" whereas almost everybody else here (who do not possess AP) did just fine distinguishing between those chords.


That's just factually wrong.


My bad. You were talking about your non AP students there.

In any case the point still holds. Non AP people here (which is the majority in this thread) haven't had issues with the chords you mention. So your failure to teach your non AP students to distinguish between those chords probably has nothing to do with having/not having AP.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1810054 - 12/21/11 03:20 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: liszt85]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: liszt85
I thought the AP possessor in this thread found these chords "indistinguishable" whereas almost everybody else here (who do not possess AP) did just fine distinguishing between those chords.


That's just factually wrong.


My bad. You were talking about your non AP students there.

In any case the point still holds. Non AP people here (which is the majority in this thread) haven't had issues with the chords you mention. So your failure to teach your non AP students to distinguish between those chords probably has nothing to do with having/not having AP.


And this earned me a message from the mod. Good job AZN.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1810127 - 12/21/11 05:24 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: liszt85]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1454
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: liszt85
I thought the AP possessor in this thread found these chords "indistinguishable" whereas almost everybody else here (who do not possess AP) did just fine distinguishing between those chords.


That's just factually wrong.


My bad. You were talking about your non AP students there.

In any case the point still holds. Non AP people here (which is the majority in this thread) haven't had issues with the chords you mention. So your failure to teach your non AP students to distinguish between those chords probably has nothing to do with having/not having AP.


And this earned me a message from the mod. Good job AZN.


Why do you need to complain about this? You like to report people too. What goes around, comes around.

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#1810133 - 12/21/11 05:37 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
I don't report people unless it completely goes out of hand. It has happened VERY few times in the past. I don't report people saying that they had misquoted me.

Edit: Ah I remember now Ron. I think I reported you about a year ago when you sent me PM's full of filthy language. Is that what you're complaining about? That really did qualify for the rarest of the rare cases. Sorry.


Edited by liszt85 (12/21/11 05:45 PM)
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1810139 - 12/21/11 05:44 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
I'm thinking maybe I should start using the notify button more often. People provoke me clearly knowing that I'm going to respond. Take RonaldSteinway for example. He and I have had numerous differences before. Right here is a clear attempt at starting a new fight with "what goes around comes around". Many people here would report me to the mod for posting something similar. Why should I then not use the notify button? I personally think we can take care of our business without having to bother other people (mods) with silly matters. Apparently, not many share that view. So maybe I'll start bothering the mods myself because I haven't been treated fairly in the past and my not using the notify button enough may have to do with that because many times, mods tend to miss the first shot (and other continuing veiled shots).
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1810405 - 12/22/11 03:42 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ChopinAddict]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Some say 1:10,000, but we thought there might be more hope here in a recent thread...

Here is a test...

The test is useless. If the first pitch is heard correctly, or guessed, all the rest can be nailed through RP...
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#1810500 - 12/22/11 09:32 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Gary D.]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Some say 1:10,000, but we thought there might be more hope here in a recent thread...

Here is a test...

The test is useless. If the first pitch is heard correctly, or guessed, all the rest can be nailed through RP...


LOL, that's exactly what happened! I got 12 out of 12. Theoretically, I have perfect pitch. Yet I know I don't. I hear a few notes perfectly, D being one of them, so I got the first note right. After that it was RP all the way. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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#1810517 - 12/22/11 10:09 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1454
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Some say 1:10,000, but we thought there might be more hope here in a recent thread...

Here is a test...

The test is useless. If the first pitch is heard correctly, or guessed, all the rest can be nailed through RP...


LOL, that's exactly what happened! I got 12 out of 12. Theoretically, I have perfect pitch. Yet I know I don't. I hear a few notes perfectly, D being one of them, so I got the first note right. After that it was RP all the way. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.


If you don't get the first note correct, you are screwed then.
To me PP is only useful, if you need to accompany such as in a church when suddenly the priest sings with incorrect key. PP people will be able to adjust to the correct key right away. RP people will have problem, or in Jazz improvisation where you need to join in the middle, and did not have the chance to find out the key. Otherwise, RP can be used for most occasions. Having great note recognition ability does not guarantee that one will be a good pianist. It definitely helps the learning process.

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#1810535 - 12/22/11 10:31 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Some say 1:10,000, but we thought there might be more hope here in a recent thread...

Here is a test...

The test is useless. If the first pitch is heard correctly, or guessed, all the rest can be nailed through RP...


LOL, that's exactly what happened! I got 12 out of 12. Theoretically, I have perfect pitch. Yet I know I don't. I hear a few notes perfectly, D being one of them, so I got the first note right. After that it was RP all the way. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.


If you don't get the first note correct, you are screwed then.

Pretty much, yes!

Quote:
... or in Jazz improvisation where you need to join in the middle, and did not have the chance to find out the key.


I think even in Jazz, people who don't have AP just learn ways of coping. That has been my experience. For example, if I can't guess the key straight away, I'll play a short chromatic or whole tone run, and within a couple of notes, you hear through RP how far off you are. Jazz players often approach notes this way anyway so it doesn't disturb the listener. After that, you settle in and play around the chord changes until you have your bearings. The only difference for an AP person is that they might be able to avoid the little guessing tool right at the start. A lot of people with AP do not process the identity of notes seamlessly at any speed. They often need a bit of time to concentrate on what they just heard. I suspect that when it comes to imitating phrases in a Jazz improv setting, there is still a degree of RP going on. I don't believe that anyone with a good ear can dispense with RP entirely. It's critical to understanding the tonal hierarchy and playing with correct emphasis on the right notes. AP alone will not inform this if the music is flowing along at a fair speed. With AP, tonal/harmonic thinking is something of an add-on to what's happening (it requires an extra thought process). With well-developed RP, it is part and parcel of it because it is the major tool for how you are getting the notes in the first place. In either case, somebody with highly developed hearing will use a fair degree of RP. AP people are not savants for whom music is revealed effortlessly without conscious effort. It's just a tool that works in a select range of circumstances.

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#1810562 - 12/22/11 11:09 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Ando, how much time did you take with each note in that test? I've heard that its the time taken that is crucial with these tests.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1810625 - 12/22/11 01:10 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: liszt85]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Ando, how much time did you take with each note in that test? I've heard that its the time taken that is crucial with these tests.


I took about 2-3 seconds per note, I think.

I should add though that I have known about a dozen people with AP in my life and they were not all the same. Some of them took some time to zone in on the particular note they were aiming for. They were extremely accurate, but not always instant. In fact, it generally took slightly longer than I think it took me to get a note using RP. But I think it does come down to what sort of work the individual has put into their pitch training. I put a great deal of work into my RP. I went around singing scales, modes, arpeggios and intervals to myself for several years until I felt very secure with my listening. I consider it to be possibly the single most beneficial thing I ever did for my music.

Likewise, I think a lot of people with AP also put extra work into being very accurate with it. Whether it's testing themselves by getting people to play notes, trying to identify specific notes within dense textures or even by singing into an electronic tuner. Some are even able to discern between a US temperament and a European temperament. (differences of 5 cents or less). All of that is the product of some effort. I think it is often misrepresented as a skill that people get like some sort of idiot savant, but I think it's more like something people pick up by intense musical study and involvement at an early age. Like any skill, it can be honed and improved. Absolute pitch is not absolute! It happens to different degrees and proficiency levels.

I once took part in a 2 year study of pitch recognition. All subjects underwent rigourous testing with PET scanners over their brains. The test pitches were delivered quite rapidly at certain stages to try and separate those who used AP and those who used RP, but it didn't turn out to be so simple. The scan results themselves pointed to the fact that different people take different amounts of time to use either method of pitch recognition. I was classed as having "quasi-perfect pitch" - which means I hear a few select notes absolutely if given enough time to resonate with it, but that I primarily use relative pitch as my tool. I hear guitar notes much more absolutely than piano notes too. I never got around to reading the final results of that study but I might see if I can get my hands on it. Fascinating stuff.

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#1810658 - 12/22/11 01:43 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: ando

I put a great deal of work into my RP. I went around singing scales, modes, arpeggios and intervals to myself for several years until I felt very secure with my listening. I consider it to be possibly the single most beneficial thing I ever did for my music.


The last time I did this was when I was around 10-12 (don't recall exactly). My teacher put me in a room one day with a cassette player playing some popular songs. My job was to figure out all the chords. I didn't even have a pitch to start with but I remember getting all of them right (even the absolute pitch). I did take some time to figure out the absolute pitch (I probably used some vocal cord memory too).

I think I should do some of that training again!
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1810661 - 12/22/11 01:45 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: ando
but I think it's more like something people pick up by intense musical study and involvement at an early age. Like any skill, it can be honed and improved.


Research has shown that early musical training plays a huge role in the development of AP.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1810731 - 12/22/11 04:03 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: ando]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ando

LOL, that's exactly what happened! I got 12 out of 12. Theoretically, I have perfect pitch. Yet I know I don't. I hear a few notes perfectly, D being one of them, so I got the first note right. After that it was RP all the way. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

It's a very nicely designed little test, and I will recommend it to good students with the idea that it is a good start for testing or working on intervals.

After all, it is not even an octave range (A to G#/Ab) and only single notes. smile
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#1811090 - 12/23/11 10:49 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
if you've really been good all year sometimes you can get perfect pitch for Christmas present.

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#1811097 - 12/23/11 10:57 AM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2055
Loc: Canada
If you have perfect pitch, your sense of hearing complex figurations and notes can get better, but I don't think there's any way to bridge the gap between having it or not.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 118
Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto no.3

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#1811153 - 12/23/11 12:06 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Kuanpiano]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
If you have perfect pitch, your sense of hearing complex figurations and notes can get better, but I don't think there's any way to bridge the gap between having it or not.


wrong, this is called color hearing - a ideal and most suitable for musician hearing.

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#1837423 - 02/02/12 07:11 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
I never really cared about obtaining perfect pitch until I saw this:

_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1837431 - 02/02/12 07:36 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Damon]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: Damon
I never really cared about obtaining perfect pitch until I saw this:


Very appropriate! Good find Damon.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

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#1837433 - 02/02/12 07:41 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Studio Joe]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
Originally Posted By: Damon
I never really cared about obtaining perfect pitch until I saw this:


Very appropriate! Good find Damon.


Oh man, I'd forgotten how terrible those old Batman episodes were! eek

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#1837462 - 02/02/12 08:55 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: music producer]
Synival Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Monmouth, OR
When I was young, I couldn't name any notes upon hearing them, but I had a good musical memory and always hear in song in my head in the same key. Using that, I taught myself to identify pitches based on songs I knew - Bolero begins with a C, the DSCH moniker in the 8th quartet begins with a D, Ravel's Pavane begins with a G, and so on. I can recognize some notes more easily than others (G's are EVERYWHERE in everyday life), and for others, I need to use relative pitch. If you always hum your favorite tunes in the same key, you should be able to train your ear this way, but beware - I'm convinced some of my favorite recordings are in different tunings, which has really messed with my head wink

I was able to use absolute pitch for ear training exercises back in college, but even if you have that ability, I would NOT recommend it! I really regret not working on my relative pitch - it's much more essential than naming a note out of the air - but it's a neat party trick smile

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#1837567 - 02/02/12 11:46 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Damon]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Damon
I never really cared about obtaining perfect pitch until I saw this:

Holy perfect pitch!!! <snicker>
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#1837569 - 02/02/12 11:50 PM Re: Perfect Pitch - What are the odds? [Re: Gary D.]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Damon
I never really cared about obtaining perfect pitch until I saw this:

Holy perfect pitch!!! <snicker>


Yes, it's useful sometimes. ha
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Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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