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You serious about hearing intervals in various types of seventh chords? Maybe if they are all in root position, but what if the notes are spread out in open position? AZN, if I'm given one note, I can identify all the others, whether they're played together, separately, spread out, whatever. That's what relative pitch is - identifying notes in relation to other notes. If I know that's a B, then I hear an F and I know (straight away, just as if I had AP ) that it's an F.
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Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP? It did come across a bit like that. When you said "What's not helpful to be able to look at a chord and immediately hear it in your head and recognize its quality?" it implied that you can only do that if you have AP.
Du holde Kunst...
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You serious about hearing intervals in various types of seventh chords? Maybe if they are all in root position, but what if the notes are spread out in open position? AZN, if I'm given one note, I can identify all the others, whether they're played together, separately, spread out, whatever. That's what relative pitch is - identifying notes in relation to other notes. If I know that's a B, then I hear an F and I know (straight away, just as if I had AP ) that it's an F. Yes, I agree that this can be taught, when a chord is played in isolation. But what if it's a chord progression, and we're asked to find out what the fourth chord is? It's not like triads where we can have supposed "feelings" attached to the triads (major/happy, minor/sad, etc.) When I've tried that with 7th chords with my non-AP students, it's a major struggle. Dominant 7th is easy to tell, as is minor-major 7th (the ugly one). Major 7th is somewhat easy to tell. But minor 7th, diminished 7th, and half-diminished 7th are bordering on the indistinguishable. Got any tricks to teach those???
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Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP? It did come across a bit like that. When you said "What's not helpful to be able to look at a chord and immediately hear it in your head and recognize its quality?" it implied that you can only do that if you have AP. I think you're over-reading. I was reacting to a rather inane statement that AP is "irrelevant" to music-making. Irrelevant my foot. Moreover, I didn't ask for AP. I was born with it. I am proud of it and glad I (and many of my students) have it. It is disheartening to see professional studies disregarding it as a silly biological phenomenon with nothing really useful toward Musical Excellence.
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AZNpiano - how many of your students have AP?
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Yes, I agree that this can be taught, when a chord is played in isolation. But what if it's a chord progression, and we're asked to find out what the fourth chord is? It's not like triads where we can have supposed "feelings" attached to the triads (major/happy, minor/sad, etc.) When I've tried that with 7th chords with my non-AP students, it's a major struggle. Dominant 7th is easy to tell, as is minor-major 7th (the ugly one). Major 7th is somewhat easy to tell. But minor 7th, diminished 7th, and half-diminished 7th are bordering on the indistinguishable. Got any tricks to teach those???
Indistinguishable??? I can hear them without even trying. It's no different to hearing basic triads. That's my job as a musician. I sometimes sit in with jazz bands and don't know any of the tunes beforehand. Once you hear a progression once, you know what the chords are and what you can play over them. They are very distinguishable. You are only confirming my belief that somebody who relies primarily on AP should not be teaching aural skills to people without AP.
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AZNpiano - how many of your students have AP? Past and present - 14. Plus a few parents! I actually have them take the online test and print out the results. I've said this before. Not all of them are great musicians (two are complete duds), but most of them are, in fact, quite musical, and can learn music quickly. I know the sample size is limited and everything I see/hear is merely anecdotal, but I have a strong suspicion that AP has something to do with musicality.
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Correlation must not be mistaken for causation.
AP is usually found in people who've had very early musical training (various studies suggest that this is the case).
Early musical training usually translates to musicality (duh).
Therefore, you observe that AP possessors are highly musical and conclude that AP by itself causes people to be musical.
Hope you can see that the first sentence of this post makes sense in this context.
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Indistinguishable??? I can hear them without even trying. It's no different to hearing basic triads. That's my job as a musician. I sometimes sit in with jazz bands and don't know any of the tunes beforehand. Once you hear a progression once, you know what the chords are and what you can play over them. They are very distinguishable. You are only confirming my belief that somebody who relies primarily on AP should not be teaching aural skills to people without AP. Hey, ando: I have a personal suggestion for you. If you have nothing positive to say, don't say anything at all. Quit bragging about what you can do. It doesn't help anyone. How would you feel if I were to say people should not teach music UNLESS they have AP???? Now, if you have constructive ideas that one can use to teach non-AP students to hear 7th chords, I would love to hear it.
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Are you serious with that remark? I can't believe you are a teacher of aural/theory with beliefs like that. I always got 100% on all my chord/interval recognition tests. Go on: ask me how I did it. BTW, I believe that people who rely totally on AP should not be teaching aural skills. There is a definite art to teaching relative pitch. If done well, you can produce very attuned ears and minds. Since when did my posts mean RP sucks and AP is better than RP? Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say you said that RP sucks. I didn't put any words in your mouth. I was expressing my own thoughts on what you wrote. I am genuinely staggered that you can be so unaware of how things work for RP people. When you start saying that you have trouble teaching chord recognition to students without AP, I get warning bells. That means to me that you aren't teaching them to hear properly. With your AP students you are using a facility they already have (you didn't teach them AP). So all you are teaching them is how to name what they are hearing using the language of harmony. With RP students, you have to teach them an approach to hear tonal hierarchy. It's vital that the teacher be intimately familiar with this way of thinking in order to transmit it to students. I realise you may not like hearing this, but that's how I see it. I'm not concerned for you, you are happy with your way of doing things, I'm concerned for the students who operate under your method in which you yourself claim that half-diminished chords etc are indistinguishable. You are putting forth this belief on the evidence that your students find them very hard, but to me, it's because you haven't showed them how to do it properly. I defy you to show me one sentence where I put any words in your mouth. I just didn't agree with your own words.
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AZNpiano - how many of your students have AP? I've said this before. Not all of them are great musicians (two are complete duds), but most of them are, in fact, quite musical, and can learn music quickly. I know the sample size is limited and everything I see/hear is merely anecdotal, but I have a strong suspicion that AP has something to do with musicality. You may be observing a situation where good pitch recognition makes it easier for amatuers to start, and they may be more likely to stick with it because they have some feeling (whether accurate or not) that they have a special advantage. A student who is tone-deaf, on the other hand, will be much slower to start and is less likely to stick with it.
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Indistinguishable??? I can hear them without even trying. It's no different to hearing basic triads. That's my job as a musician. I sometimes sit in with jazz bands and don't know any of the tunes beforehand. Once you hear a progression once, you know what the chords are and what you can play over them. They are very distinguishable. You are only confirming my belief that somebody who relies primarily on AP should not be teaching aural skills to people without AP. Quit bragging about what you can do. I don't even see it as bragging. I was just the beneficiary of some good teaching. I believe anybody with a reasonable instinct for music can learn the system I learned. How would you feel if I were to say people should not teach music UNLESS they have AP????
That is pretty much how you came across. You claim certain things must be done with AP. Like identifying certain chords that you call "indistinguishable". Now, if you have constructive ideas that one can use to teach non-AP students to hear 7th chords, I would love to hear it. It's very difficult to write down as very much of it is taught by interaction and singing, and the use of a white board. If I can think of a way to describe it, I will. I don't have time to try now because I'm running late for dinner!
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Devane earlier made a great post and he/she took the effort to actually quote from the research literature, the authors of which are highly qualified musicians (and professors) and scientists who've been working on some of these questions for decades now. For somebody to call them quacks or imply that they didn't major in music in college is nonsense.
I agree with ando. Maybe people with AP shouldn't be teaching non AP students. Maybe some people with AP shouldn't be teaching at all!
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When I've tried that with 7th chords with my non-AP students, it's a major struggle. Dominant 7th is easy to tell, as is minor-major 7th (the ugly one). Major 7th is somewhat easy to tell. But minor 7th, diminished 7th, and half-diminished 7th are bordering on the indistinguishable. Got any tricks to teach those??? My very modestly qualified first teacher (he didn't go to college for piano) taught me the differences between those chords when I was about 9 and I could identify them all by ear. Neither of us had AP. As for tricks, all I remember him getting me to do was listen to these different chords for hours, trying to focus on the different qualities. As simple as that, no tricks. Just some decent amount of hard work. To learn this, he had me sit in a cabin with a keyboard, 2-3 hrs per day, for a couple of months (it was not just these chords). So there's your trick.
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you yourself claim that half-diminished chords etc are indistinguishable. You are putting forth this belief on the evidence that your students find them very hard, but to me, it's because you haven't showed them how to do it properly. I can hear the 7th chords just fine. In my experience working with non-AP students, they have difficulty telling those last three 7th chords apart. Minor 7th, half-diminished 7th, and diminished 7th are difficult for students. Do you teach? Do you have success teaching this concept to many students? I'm not being facetious--just want to know how this skill can be taught. So how do you teach aural skills properly? Can we focus on that? I can get non-AP students to hear intervals. Triads are mostly do-able. 7th chords is where the kids' ear training falls apart. And you need to seriously get beyond the fact that I'm not helping my students. I have a genuine concern for them and their musical education, whether you believe it or not.
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It's very difficult to write down as very much of it is taught by interaction and singing, and the use of a white board. If I can think of a way to describe it, I will. I don't have time to try now because I'm running late for dinner! Please do so when you are free. I do want to expand upon my teaching skills, especially when I know something isn't working. I remember posing this same question the last time an AP thread evolved on the forum, but I didn't get any response.
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Wow. I hadn't opened this thread until just now and it's certainly blown-up into something larger than it's original intention.
I've been teaching for 30+ years and have had many students with AP. None of them have been more of an outstanding pianist/musician as a result of their AP (which cannot, by the way, be taught/learned...argue with me on this point all you like, but you'll be wrong).
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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(which cannot, by the way, be taught/learned...argue with me on this point all you like, but you'll be wrong). if there is something you cannot learn assuming that everybody can't as well is silly and kinda arrogant.
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My very modestly qualified first teacher (he didn't go to college for piano) taught me the differences between those chords when I was about 9 and I could identify them all by ear. Neither of us had AP.
As for tricks, all I remember him getting me to do was listen to these different chords for hours, trying to focus on the different qualities. As simple as that, no tricks. Just some decent amount of hard work. To learn this, he had me sit in a cabin with a keyboard, 2-3 hrs per day, for a couple of months (it was not just these chords). So there's your trick.
Didn't you just prove by yourself it is an advantage for AP to learn those cords. My son seems never need to memorize a score. The score just comes to his memory. His teacher told me it is because of his AP. I do not know if there is any truth in it, but his teacher does have AP too, and was speaking from her own experience.
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wow, so much pseudo-science and anecdotal statistics in this thread, i feel like i am watching fox news.
statistics are meaningless without knowing who and how many were sampled out of what total, what techniques were used, and how metrics were derived. Even then, it is all still probability which innately has a chance of being wrong. Especially when you are wrapping a stat around 6.8 billion.
"i know this one guy who told me he read a book once where they referenced a lecture where a guy said only .0001% of all 'white' people are AP." puhleeze.
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