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Just moved back to CA and may soon be trying-out the V-Piano. Wondering if they've improved them or have something superior that'll soon be available?

Bech

No they still have the same metallic synthetic mid range they always had.

Sorry, can't help myself....



+1,000!!!

How about the V-Piano Grand, auditioned directly through headphones - any improvement over the V-Piano? (I get the impression there isn't)

Greg.

No, it's the same although there are two additional "models" in it I think. The problem is that I sound like a stuck record...no, sorry, the problem is that the base tone for ALL the V-Piano's sounds is the same - very tweakable yes but the same underlying tone. When they've fixed this it will be the king of DPs, without a doubt...but tonally it is a long way off. Listening to it and then switching to a decent sample based tone is like chalk and cheese. But they will get there....

Well that's different because you get metallic synthetic sounding mid tones in a big fake grand piano cabinet with a non grand piano action ;-)

Yes, alright. I honestly find it hard to fault those concert hall recordings of the V-Grand though.

Greg.

Greg, that's because you are also hearing the colouration of the V-Piano's amplification, speakers, body resonance and the acoustic influence of the room on recordings made via distant microphones etc. The closer you get to the V (in a physical and/or electronic sense), the less piano like it sounds. Using headphones it is very exposed to critical listening and its shortcomings are obvious. The AvantGrand is ok through headphones but is very much better through its speakers and then is better again from across the room.

I think you have an itch Greg...you need to scratch it by finding a V-Piano to play!

I've played a V-Piano briefly, using headphones. I thought it sounded good, especially in the bass register. It was quite a while ago now, but I don't remember it sounding quite as synthetic in the middle registers as some of the recordings I've been listening to lately. Note that despite the synthetic aspect, I still think it sounds nice, and I think it's kind of cool to keep your listeners guessing a bit about what exactly they are listening to. I also think it has more character than the SN sounds. (but I definitely prefer SN) The way the V-Piano notes evolve as they decay is more complex.

I think sometimes the middle registers sound like the attacks have been grafted off. I.e, like starting samples at a later point into the sample, slightly after the hammer strike.

Greg.

I think I agree with what you've said Greg. My issue with the V-Piano is the midrange. The part of the keyboard that is carrying melody just sounds artificial...like an electronic pastiche of a piano. PianoTeq sounds different but is the same - if that makes sense!

I think you could play the V-Piano (as I did when trying it for the first time) and be totally blown away by the dynamics and control it offers. But I came to really hate the way it sounds. Hate is a strong word but hate is what I felt. Not because it presented a kind of acoustic piano tone that wasn't to my liking (for instance there's a grand piano on the Nord that I strongly dislike) but because the tones are simply NOT LIKE A PIANO in the midrange and I say the same thing about PianoTeq.

But as I said the dynamics for the player are brilliant. In my first period of ownership I would play it and enjoy it but if I listened to myself play afterwards I would think that it just wasn't piano-like. What I'm saying is your impression of the way it sounds is different depending on whether you are playing or listening. When just listening your brain is not integrating the sound with your inputs as the player and all the other information from the other senses. When listening you can just concentrate on the tonality of the thing and it falls a long way short.

I would challenge anyone to listen to something like Vintage D and V-Piano back-to-back and prefer the V-Piano tonally. That would be laughable. Other DPs would be like lo-fi alternatives to Vintage D, but they are still entirely piano-like. The V-Piano sounds like a machine trying to emulate a piano...it has an overtone of artificial electronicness (new word for the day) that is totally unconvincing in the mids and upper mids. It's heartbreaking because in almost every other sense it is outstandingly good.

With all due respect, this is nonsense. Forget the digital or not question and play a recording of a good pianist playing even the basic presets to 1000 people and ask what instrument they are listening to and 1000 people would reply, 'a piano'.

The V-Piano may not sound like a piano that you like or wish to own. It may not sound like how your dream piano should sound but to state that the tones are 'NOT LIKE A PIANO' is just ridiculous.

I can find the sound of a Yamaha Concert Grand grating in the wrong hands but I would never describe it as not sounding like a piano.



Which V-Piano tone would that be then? The V-Piano is capable of many different tones.

And furthermore, it also depends who is playing and what/he she is trying to play.

IMO, if you want a piano that sounds exactly like a Bosendorfer, Steinway or whatever then you are definitely better off getting a sampled piano as long as you understand and accept the limitation that it will only ever sound, and especially play like 'the real thing' when you play single notes or simple pieces, especially where classical piano is concerned.

For sure, you are going to have to work harder with a modelled piano to find a tone that exactly replicates a specific piano sound that you have in your head but as you say:



In terms of dynamics and control and I would also add in terms of being able to handle harmonically complex pieces it is IMO light years better than any sampled piano that I have heard / played and I would go as far as stating that it is the only DP I have played to date that PLAYS like a musical instrument as well as sounding like one.

Limitations of Youtube etc .... but I know that one of these two performances is exciting, involving, dynamic and musical the other is dead as a dodo even though arguably it has the more realistic piano tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-dC7eT_Oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBfRnK7uDjI

I agree the V-Piano sounds more like a piano than it does a washing machine on fast spin or a barking dog. But you are hearing an electronic device trying to emulate a piano and for some very unfortunate reason this gives rise to a hollow, electronic artificial character, especially in the midrange. Because this occurs with PianoTeq too I am convinced that right now the technology is not sufficiently developed to fully emulate the tonal characteristics of a real piano. When you hear a sample based piano you are hearing a piano.

The reason you would not say that a grating Yamaha doesn't sound like a piano is because it is a piano. However badly played or insensitively voiced it may be - it is a piano.

You say the V-Piano is capable of many different tones. Not really. It is capable of sounding like many different iterations of a V-Piano. Roland started with a sound - the building block of the V-Piano. This sound cannot be fundamentally changed. Tweaked, yes. Changed to make it sound like a different piano, no. You cannot make it sound like a Steinway, Yamaha or anything else. Roland promised "a virtual showroom of concert grands". The parallel is to take a grand piano of any make and get a technician to voice it as many different ways as you like. It's always going to sound like that piano. You can't make a Steinway sound like a Bosendorfer. But that is what Roland promised.

Well I am not going to argue with how you perceive sound but you must concede that there are many happy owners who either don't hear what you hear or at the very least don't feel that this 'character' detracts in any way from the pleasure of playing one.



Well some are better than others but all suffer from the same fundamental problem that the samples are recorded (at many different levels) in total isolation from each other and so when played back from the DP keyboard the sound is somewhat one dimensional, dead and unrealistic. Some of the better ones such as the superNaturals (I have an Fp7-F) use trickery to add life to the samples but the V-Piano IMO destroys them all in terms of dynamics, control and the feeling of playing a real, reactive instrument.



All of the sounds have to pass through the same amplification circuitry which will colour the sound to some extent. Not a surprise when you consider that some audiophiles will pay more for their amplification than the cost of a V-Piano. But I again must agree to disagree with you. The V-Piano is to my ears capable of producing an astonishing variety of usable piano sounds.



OK. If that is what you wanted and you didn't get it then I can see why you might be disappointed.

That doesn't really matter to me. I want a musical instrument that can allow me to play music written for the piano expressively. I want the sound to be dynamic, involving, exciting and rewarding to listen to for me, family and friends.

Accuracy of tone? Compared to what? Pianos don't play / sound exactly the same even from the same model from the same company. As long as the instrument is capable of doing justice to great works of music (even if this player certainly isn't) then it suits my purpose and the V-Piano IMO most certainly does.

I also want the flexibility to play / practise whenever I get the opportunity, without waking / annoying the whole house.

That is why I am going to buy one or something very much like it in the next few months because I cannot think of anything that even comes close, for the same price or even quite a lot more.

Anyway, enjoy your Christmas and have a happy new year.

Yes it is what I wanted, but more importantly, it is what Roland promises. And it patently does not deliver.

I can see that you want a V-Piano and good luck to you - just make sure you play that thing for hours and hours on several occasions before parting with five grand!

And Happy Christmas to you too.

Steve

Agreed, although I think Pianoteq sounds more like a piano than the V-Piano. I'm not sure which I prefer though - I like the rich phasey sound of the V-Piano.

Greg.

I'm not sure but I think I'd take V-Piano over PianoTeq if only for its magnificent bass. The very brief clip of PianoTeq 4 I've heard sounded better though - will be interesting to see how that turns out.

Yes, I agree on both points, EXCEPT for the price of the V-Piano, of course. Pianoteq 4 definitely sounds better than V3 to me too, but nothing in those short clips sounded as impressive as sampled pianos to me.

Greg.

Btw, I don't think Pianoteq or V-Piano sound too "metallic". Neither sound metallic ENOUGH for me, although the V-Piano sounds more metallic than Pianoteq, especially in the bass registers.

A "metallic" piano to me sounds very steely and wiry, in a natural acoustic way - in a good way. Here's an example of a very metallic piano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuPq2LdmiOo (especially the forte playing). That's a sound I really like.

Pianoteq sounds muffled compared to that. EQing helps, but it never gets as good as that example. (Playing around with the soundboard controls can help too, but I find that it's very easy to get a sound that sounds unpleasant) V-Piano perhaps gets close in the bass registers - of course it may need EQing. (and I fully understand that this example may be heavily processed)

To me, a piano is supposed to sound metallic.

The terms I'd use for the middle registers of the V-Piano might be "cheesy", "synthetic", or "electronic" - not too metallic.

Greg.

how about "Superunnatrual"

I agree with you both. Cheesy, synthetic, electronic, artificial, thin, hollow, superunnatural.....I bloody well wish they'd fix it. I'd then have to risk a proper full-on war at home and get one again. Unlike some others I even love the way it looks on its proper stand.