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#1811727 - 12/24/11 09:54 AM piano market in Europe sucks
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Surprisingly both digital and acoustic! confused
I have recently moved from US to Europe and I'm shocked
not to be able to buy what I want in Christmas season whistle Can you imagine in America an item is out of stock for Christmas??? About 3 weeks ago I have decided for samick SIG-50 or/and yamaha CLP-465GP and guess what, I couldn't get it. There was only ONE Samick SIG-50 in December Shipment and main yamaha warehouse for Europe was out of their new CLP-465GP long before holidays. How come??? Do they know anything about holidays shopping and how to make money??? I can get this samick SIG-50 maybe before New Year but not for today Christmas Eve when I wanted and needed. Yamaha will be available next year sick That what the biggest store in Europe Thomann told me. I'm going back to US...

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#1811740 - 12/24/11 10:39 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
The last five pianos\keyboards I've bought (Yamaha C3, P250, CP300, CP5, AvantGrand N3) all had to be ordered. The various dealers might have had one model on the floor but all the above mentioned pianos\keyboards had to be ordered.

(I should add that the C3 was ordered and initially used in the US.)
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#1811743 - 12/24/11 10:50 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
I suppose this thread should make us (in the US) stop and think and appreciate our brick-and-mortar piano dealers. I think sometimes we take them for granted and try to squeeze them for every dime of discount we can get.

Thank you to all our dealers who work hard to have painos on the show-room floor for us to try out. thumb

Happy Holidays!

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1811759 - 12/24/11 11:07 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
But was is the reasoning behind that??? People in Europe have a lot of money and they're willing to spend it so what's the problem?...


happy holidays anyway,
Rob

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#1811765 - 12/24/11 11:15 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10452
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Perhaps business was too good this year and manufacturers under-predicted the market.

In turbulent economic times esitimating sales is very challenging. As a consultant to the industry, predominantly on marketing issues, I am often asked what my crystal ball says!

The lag time between the realization of need and the delivery of pianos to a market is significant. Over estimating the market is very costly in terms of cash flow, storage expenses, and discounts offered to move the goods.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1811772 - 12/24/11 11:40 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Grand Piano Haus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 194
Loc: Skokie, IL
Well I know that the Tsunami that happened in Japan earlier this year caused certain components that Yamaha uses to build their digital pianos & keyboards to become scarce or unavailable.


Jeff
GPH
_________________________
Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber & Söhne, Kayserburg, Ritmüller, Cable-Nelson, CEUS, Live-Performance model-LX, Disklavier-PRO, Q.R.S. & PianoDisc, AvantGrand, Clavinova, Arius http://www.GrandPianoHaus.com.

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#1811795 - 12/24/11 12:20 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Are you kidding? This happens ALL THE TIME in the US. You can't expect dealers to stock every single model from every brand they represent, ESPECIALLY if they have to buy them outright.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#1811804 - 12/24/11 12:34 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Brent H Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 843
Away from a few major population centers most folks in the USA are lucky to have a handful of dealers within a 100-mile radius, each of which probably have at most two or three models from each of the (few) brands they carry. In my area, which has a quarter-million people within a two-country area, if you set out last week to find a Yamaha model such-and-such in stock at a dealer in a certain cabinet style and color your odds are maybe 1-in-3 of finding one. Unless it is the very most popular model.

If if you wanted an Estonia or Samick or Petros or some other specific brand and model, you wouldn't find one period end of sentence. I think people whose experience is entirely in large multi-million person conurbations have a misleading idea of what it's like to shop for a specialty item like a good piano.

Now if you just want "a grand piano" and aren't particularly specific as to brand, model, size, color and so forth (and if you're willing not to get it for like half-off the Piano Buyer SMP price) that's pretty doable in most cities. But the market for pianos is so fragmented that shopping for a specific brand and model takes patience, not withstanding how generic some of them seem based on frequent mentions in Internet forums...
_________________________
Current Life+Music Philosophy: Less Thinking, More Foot Tapping

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#1811813 - 12/24/11 12:54 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: rob.art
But was is the reasoning behind that??? People in Europe have a lot of money and they're willing to spend it so what's the problem?...


happy holidays anyway,
Rob


My impression is that North America is more of a consumer society than is Europe. I'm certainly not pointing a finger at the US because we in Canada are probably even more so. We've become accustomed to too much "stuff".

Glenn

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#1812223 - 12/25/11 01:53 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1752
rob.art complains: "Do [European dealers] know anything about holidays shopping and how to make money???" "But was is the reasoning behind that??? People in Europe have a lot of money and they're willing to spend it so what's the problem?..."

If I were a real lawyer at a deposition, I would say that the question had been "asked and answered." Rather than accusing European dealers of naiveté or incompetence, how about you ask yourself why, in an economy where there is money to spend, a store might be out of the particular item you want to purchase.

How about this for a reason: it is BECAUSE there is money to spend in Europe--the stores ACTUALLY SOLD the items that they had in stock, and so they ran out before you wandered in looking for a particular piano.

Before you conclude that an entire continent worth of piano dealers is incompetent, you might ask yourself whether you left it too late to get what you wanted exactly when you wanted it. Coming from America, though, you of course demand instant gratification. . . .hmmm. . . .even on Christmas Eve which is, after all, the date of your post and (one might conclude) the date on which you went out and demanded NOW the ONE piano that would meet your needs. I bet you were eager to bargain, too, for a pre-Christmas sale price. . . .

Merry Christmas!

P.S. In any event, Santa can't fit all those pianos in his sleigh.

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#1812306 - 12/25/11 04:49 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
Coming from America, though, you of course demand instant gratification. . . .hmmm. . . .even on Christmas Eve which is, after all, the date of your post and (one might conclude) the date on which you went out and demanded NOW the ONE piano that would meet your needs. I bet you were eager to bargain, too, for a pre-Christmas sale price. . . .

Merry Christmas!

P.S. In any event, Santa can't fit all those pianos in his sleigh.


ok then, it's not Europe market that sucks it's Santa... laugh

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#1812343 - 12/25/11 06:52 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: rob.art
ok then, it's not Europe market that sucks it's Santa... laugh

I don't think those comments will get you any better results next Christams; Santa is listening... wink

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1812347 - 12/25/11 07:17 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
David-G Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: London
Originally Posted By: rob.art
But was is the reasoning behind that??? People in Europe have a lot of money and they're willing to spend it so what's the problem?...
happy holidays anyway,
Rob

Europe is a big place, it would be good to know which country you are referring to. Certainly in this part of Europe, the whole problem is that people are not spending money. They are paying off personal debt. That's why we are in a potential double-dip recession. I only wish that people did have a lot of money and were willing to spend it.

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#1812373 - 12/25/11 09:40 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: Glenn NK]
J_D Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 303
Loc: Texas, USA
[/quote]

My impression is that North America is more of a consumer society than is Europe. I'm certainly not pointing a finger at the US because we in Canada are probably even more so. We've become accustomed to too much "stuff".

Glenn [/quote]

Glen, you are correct. Just look at all the storage rental places. We have way too much stuff and constantly want more. ( Not everyone, but a lot of people do.)
_________________________
J.D.
Hailun 178

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#1812380 - 12/25/11 10:10 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3786
Loc: North Carolina
The CLP-465GP is a SLOW-moving model. I would be more surprised to find one in stock than out-of-stock.

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#1812447 - 12/26/11 02:47 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Tweedpipe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: rob.art
But was is the reasoning behind that??? People in Europe have a lot of money and they're willing to spend it so what's the problem?... happy holidays anyway,
Rob


Rob,
I appreciate your frustration in not being able to immediately purchase the DP of your choice, especially at this time of year. However you make some sweeping statements, which can be very misleading for those people who have never visited Europe, and may take your comments at face value.
As another poster rightly says, Europe is a large place and in UK for example, people are indeed struggling to pay off huge debts.
As you appear to be a new visitor to Europe, allow me to expand on a few facts.
I believe I read that unemployment in the USA is currently running at approx 8.5% and consequently times are very tough for many. For comparison purposes the unemployment rate in UK and France is hovering around the 10% mark, and both countries are trembling at the prospect of a possible loss of their Triple A ratings. Although difficult to provide exact figures, the unemployment rate in Spain has been quoted at around 18%. In the whole Euro zone, an average of 10% unemployment has been mentioned, although determining an accurate figure is somewhat difficult.
2011 was the annus horribilis for the French Bourse which lost almost 20%.
If one is confined to France's Champs Elysee and immediate areas - it's difficult to imagine that the soup kitchens/meal-centres (or whatever one wishes to call these voluntary organisations) are busting at the seams with a constant stream of people in a desperate situation.
Yes, most of the large supermarkets are indeed regularly crowded as are many restaurants, but it's a resonable bet that the average takings are down compared to 'the better times.'
I'm usually optimistic, but I foresee 2012 as no better, although I'd love to be proved wrong.
Let's hope that those remaining piano companies in Europe survive the crisis, especially the top German ones like S&S, Sauter, Schimmel etc.
Happy holidays.
_________________________
Dear Noah,
We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5.
Yours sincerely,
The Unicorns



------------------------------


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#1812458 - 12/26/11 03:29 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: rob.art]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1028
Loc: west coast island, canada
toys from china produced for europe.... and elsewhere

a small insight in to factory conditions in china
and the reality of life for countless millions of people

hopefully the ones that work in piano factories are a little more fortunate and have better living, environmental and working conditions.

this is the reality of life for so many beings here on earth,
slaving to give us toys




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#1812550 - 12/26/11 11:12 AM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: Dara]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6215
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Dara
toys from china produced for europe.... and elsewhere

a small insight in to factory conditions in china
and the reality of life for countless millions of people

hopefully the ones that work in piano factories are a little more fortunate and have better living, environmental and working conditions.

this is the reality of life for so many beings here on earth,
slaving to give us toys





I watched the entire video. Sobering indeed. Thanks for sharing.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#1814109 - 12/28/11 10:00 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: Tweedpipe]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Tweedpipe
Originally Posted By: rob.art
But was is the reasoning behind that??? People in Europe have a lot of money and they're willing to spend it so what's the problem?... happy holidays anyway,
Rob



I believe I read that unemployment in the USA is currently running at approx 8.5% and consequently times are very tough for many. For comparison purposes the unemployment rate in UK and France is hovering around the 10% mark, and both countries are trembling at the prospect of a possible loss of their Triple A ratings.


I don't know about the numbers for Europe but if anybody actually believes the unemployment numbers that the US government is claiming, then I've got some beach front property in Kansas to sell them.
The government's been putting out ridiculous numbers for both unemployment as well as inflation for quite some time.
I would roughly double whatever numbers the government claims. In some places in the US the unemployment is over 20%.
Heck, you figure since the government's been claiming that the US has been in an "economic recovery" for some time now that most people would realize that lying is a matter of policy for them now.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1814729 - 12/29/11 07:24 PM Re: piano market in Europe sucks [Re: Dara]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: Dara
toys from china produced for europe.... and elsewhere

a small insight in to factory conditions in china
and the reality of life for countless millions of people



I would be careful here, Chine has the most evolving and growing economy market right now and some say it has a chance to be next superpower country in near future. Sure in some places people work in not the ideal conditions but the truth is China has enough US dollars to buy samick piano for every person in their country... wink You know that number, do you?

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/17/news/international/china_gdp/index.htm

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