I agree too, well said Ryan. I was trying to say the same thing but wasn't managing it very well! Good job!

Raising fees--even if it means to weed out certain students--is not being nasty; it's a fiscal necessity.

Speaking from personal experience, when I raised my fees substantially in 2006, I actually got better students. I still get a lot of calls from parents looking for cheap piano teachers, but I'm certain there are teachers in their preferred price range.

Well, I never said you had to provide your service at a loss. Actually, I never once said anything about you having to keep your rates cheap. My gripe was with the idea that simply raising rates would attract only the most serious people. There are people out there that would love to learn anything if they can afford to but they do not have the money. Money certainly does not equal power and that is nice if someone is willing to provide a scholarship for those people but its totally irrational to believe that the highest bidders are the most willing.

I work for the Science college at my University, some of these parents are paying for college out of pocket for their kids to be here and their kids come into our office crying about professors picking on them and wanting to know if they can hide grades from their parents. It costs $20,000 a year to In-State and $27,000 for out of state. You would think all that money would motivate them to do well, but it does not for some of them, its just time away from their parents. On the other hand, we have some students here that arent so rich and are paying with loans and they are taking this very seriously.

I deal with these people on a daily basis and I can see everything that they do in school, where they come from, and what kind of grades they got in school before they got here. The tuition at my University goes up every year (When I got here in 2008, tuition was $250/credit. Today, it is $500/credit), and these people still do the same as they do every year....absolutely nothing.

Anyway, my point is...if you raise your rates because you think you are going to get rid of the bargain shoppers and people who just want to say their kids are taking piano...you will probably still get those people, they will just be bargain shoppers and lazy people with more money.


....and Im pretty sure I am paying what most of you charge for your lessons to my own teacher. So obviously I am not shopping for a bargain.

AZNpiano,

Great post! I'd like to know more about how it went when you raised your rates substantially in 2006. How much did you raise them? How did you inform your students? How did they react. How many students did you lose, if any?

It's great to hear people's real life experience with this issue.

And, to me, that was clarified on the first page, after someone else also understood it slightly differently. I don't think that was what was said/meant, and the clarification says it wasn't. In other threads here teachers talk about other ways to deal with non-serious students/parents besides rates - and some teachers actually don't mind students who are less "serious" - they're learning whatever they want to learn. I guess because I read this forum quite a bit I have that larger perspective.

I also think your point was slightly different - that people who aren't wealthy or can't afford the raise are not necessarily non-serious. It's a little different, but I think clarity is important. And I think the teacher's attitude was clarified on the first page.

Cathy

BrokenChord,

Your anecdote shows that money is a factor when gauging how serious someone is about an endeavor. You're saying that students who rely on parents to pay for their education are less serious than the ones who have to bear more of the financial burden themselves. The ones whose parents pay are essentially getting their education free, and may be at higher risk of taking it for granted.

Bottom line: What we pay more for we respect more.

I would believe you if MOST piano students were paying adults and not children who have parents who pay. How then, does having a parent pay more for your lessons mean that their child is going to be a serious client?

My basic point was that you have those who can and those who cannot. Those who can afford to pay $50 for a 30 minute lesson arent necessarily those who will go home and practice, bring their materials to the lesson, show up to lessons on time...etc.

Im sure there are plenty of people out there who can only afford to pay $30 for a 30 minute lesson that will take it more seriously than someone willing to pay $20 more.

I threw in the anecdote about the students at the science college because I know many of them are non paying students who have paying parents that are willing to take an increase (ridiculously high!) in tuition..just like the kids you guys teach piano to.

But, anyway, I'm sure there is a teacher out there somewhere that can take pity on someone who can only afford to pay $30. They might turn out to be the best student ever.

First of all, there are adults who claim they can't afford lessons under the best of situations, who waste far more than the price of a weekly lesson on things they don't need it all. That has been talked about a lot. For me they don't have their priorities straight, and if a small raise in my prices makes them bolt, I have only contempt for them.

But there are other adults who are truly scraping by (much as I am, much as many TEACHERS are), due to skyrocketing healthcare costs (the price of insurance now is INSANE), and everything else that is going up. With those people I have a running dialog about how hard it is for all of us, and I think we all sort of feel like we are "in it together". I do everything possible to keep costs down. In fact, most of the music I use is free, done by me in Finale, and the editing time and personal effort is enormous, but it is worth it to me because of the personal touch, the ability to edit exactly as I please, and the personal growth. That's win-win. But it does eat up a HUGE amount of time.

The families who are perhaps doing a little better than average are often amazingly helpful by bringing in reams of paper, helping out with my ink costs, etc.

We can't talk about everything we do in private. Personally, I am well aware of which students (of all ages) are working really hard and appreciate what I do, and I do things for them that I don't even talk about in public. I'd bet a lot of teachers do the same. Probably most.

It doesn't. But I will tell you one thing for a FACT: there are parents who will switch teachers in a heartbeat if they can find a teacher who is a block closer, or one who will charge a dollar less, or one who will make up lessons that are missed for NO reason other than total irresponsibility. This is not a money issue. It is a stupid-parents issue. And it's more common than you think. It keeps totally ignorant teachers in business and hurts all the rest of us.

I'm not exaggerating. These are the parents who neither recognize nor appreciate a good teacher, and the attitude usually rubs off on the kids, who adopt the same attitude.

The thing that rips me apart is when I get kids, of any age, who know I am a good teacher and appreciate what I do but who have parents who are too selfish and foolish to realize that and so switch them to another teacher who is terrible. And that does happen.

It is also true that sometimes my young students will actually fight their parents about making a foolish switch!

Now, what about the cases in which a dollar more per lesson will actually make a difference. That would be four or five dollars a month. Are some people really that "hard off"?

My answer: yes. There are people making huge sacrifices already. One family was taking a bus to get to me. I've had families who had to drop out a month in order to save up enough money to start up again. One of my teen students is contributing money from a job to help pay bills. It won't surprise anyone that he is a great student.

And I bust my a** for these people, doing everything possible to help them.

However, if I can't make enough money to pay my bills, if I can't make enough money to fill my prescriptions, to get gas, to do the other things that are necessities, I can't do my job.

That's why I say it is tough for everyone. This is just my perspective. I don't see raising rates as a means of driving away people who are not serious, because my experience tells me that many serious students are barely making enough money for lessons, or have parents who barely make enough to pay for them, while there are spoiled rotten children (with parents who raise them that way) who have all the money they need.

And the idea that parents who appreciate music have kids who do, and that parents who know very little about music have kids who do NOT--well--that is simply utter crap. My parents became somewhat sophisticated about music through ME, because I continued to educate THEM for as long as they lived.

Life is not fair. The best we can do is to try to look out for the people who are serious, the ones who really care, and I'd be very surprised if most of the teachers here don't do that.

I also think some of the "hardness" that seems to come through in these threads is a bit of posturing--or people trying to talk themselves into not being taken advantage of!

And I agree with that point. I'm not sure that anyone disagrees with it. But I would suggest that it is the students have to struggle SOMEWHAT, to earn the right to have lessons, who do not have an attitude of entitlement, who tend to be the stand-out musicians, in the long run.

Totally true!!!

I'd also add that most likely I could charge more money if I wanted to target people who have enough money to buy and sell me. That's just not who I am. Year after year some of the most wonderful students I have are they ones who are just barely making it (or their parents are barely making it). I do expect to be paid, but appreciation and respect is hugely important to me, and if someone was willing to pay me $100 a lesson but with the attitude that I was his/her inferior, someone to be treated like a lower-class servant, that person would be gone out of my life in a heartbeat.

To me earning money in that manner makes prostituation a noble profession by comparison.

That's good Gary,

What I have found over the years, is that parents who do not play the piano themselves, are a lot less apt to have the piano tuned. They are a lot more apt, to look for the cheapest tuner and the cheapest teacher even if they can afford it. It is a lack of education on their behalf then. Which becomes up to us, to change. They quite often own a piano that is pure junk. And quite often, they could care less, regardless of how much education I attempt to give them because, they do not play it themselves, therefore, they fail to realize how poorly it is playing.

While they may be sending their kids for lessons, they do not understand that by having a poorly tuned piano or one that is piece of junk, they are setting them up for failure. Their child goes to the lesson, plays on a nice piano, only to come home to play a piece of junk piano that hasn't been tuned in 15 years, has sticking keys, notes that are not working at all, or the touch is horribly uneven, etc.

These same parents will say to me, "it is good enough for them to start out on." I can't count the amount of times I have heard that line. Probably thousands? All technicians hear that one. I ask them if they would want a concert pianist to come into their house right now and play their piano? OH HEAVENS NO! Why not? If it's good enough for your child, isn't it just as "good enough" for them too? Well, stammer, stammer, stammer.....no but, but, what??? I just say, do you get my point? If they, as a concert artist, would not want to play on this piano, they why would anyone else, including your child want to play on it? If you want them to succeed then you need to have something that will encourage them to do so. Let me help you... One way or another, we can find something, that is better than this at fair price... I will even look at it for you for nothing, just to help you out...

I read an article 30 some years ago. I can't recall where but, i want to say that it was the Music Teachers Association or, something like that (anyone remember this that can help me?) did some research on the reasons students stopped taking lessons. (Maybe it was Yamaha?) The number one reason, they found, was sheer frustration at having to play on a piano that was not well taken care of.

While "some" cannot afford to do much to their piano, there are just as many, if not more that can, but choose not to do so. I see what they drive, what they own, what they smoke.

On the other hand, I also see that many parents who take it seriously, most often, listen and learn. They have the piano fixed if it needs it, by a competent technician. They have it tuned yearly, at least. They buy something decent and their kids have a lot more fun taking lessons. Eventually, these kids inherit the nice piano.

Jerry, I just love your comments. As a teacher, I am constantly frustrated by talented students who have to fight inferior instruments at home, don't want to practice for the same reason. And I've heard hundreds of parents say the same thing: it is good enough for them to start out on. What they don't realize is that it defeats the hard work both teacher and student do at the lesson. Thanks for posting this.

You need to ask the parents if they would think that a car that has 5 inches of free play in the steering wheel is good enough to learn on. That is the equivalent amount of lost motion in many of these old pianos. (Or 3 inches of play in the brake pedal!)

That's why some teachers interview all inquiries and offer the extremely talented students partial or full scholarships! That makes good business sense, too!

+1,000!

Another aspect to consider when setting rates is to be aware of the psychology of price. It is human nature to believe that higher priced items are better quality. When we go to a store to purchase a bottle of wine, some will not pay attention to any of the bottles of wine under $5, because they assume it's not as good as the wine that is $10 a bottle. I have heard that in wine tasting tests, people think that the wine with the highest price tag is better tasting and that the wine with the low price tag tastes worse, even if the price tags are reversed.

At least one popular study shows that people can't tell whether wine is cheap or expensive just by tasting it: Richard Wiseman Study.

This means if your prices are lower than average, many people will perceive that you are a lower quality instructor, whereas if you charge more than average, people will automatically think you must be better than average. Of course if the quality of your teaching is obviously not good, you probably won't get away with charging top-dollar. However, I'm sure that there are medium quality level piano teachers who enjoy a better reputation than some better quality teachers simply based on the price.

A successful Seattle piano teacher gave a presentation last year about the business of running a teaching studio. He claimed that when he raised his fees, started charging tuition by the year, and stopped letting his clients reschedule missed lessons, that his reputation went significantly up, even though he felt like the quality of his teaching had not changed.

So remember that price sends a strong message about the quality of your product. I really like the idea of charging top dollar, but then offering scholarships for special cases, if you feel inspired to do so. That makes way more sense from a business perspective than keeping your rates low to make sure you are affordable to low income folks.

By the same token, if you can manage to have yourself booked way ahead, and have a big waiting line, like I usually am, booked anywhere from a month to 3 months solid, depending on the time of year then when I get a call from a potential new customer, many times, they will say, wow, if you're booked that far in advance you must be good! That sends them a strong signal. Busy, means good. Although, the last 2 weeks don't count. I've been on vacation and having fun chatting with you good people

Some parents (like me!) like structure... the yearly plan that coincides with school semesters, regular homework, and final exams (= recitals) works well for older kids. We (I) also like the teacher to "take the heat" when "talented" kids don't want to practice ...

In my town, the most expensive teachers have fancy credentials and very high expectations for their students... LOts of these kids also have high pressure parents. I'm not a big fan of the pressure but LOVE the results! That said, my kid has a less expensive teacher, lower expectations, lower pressure and is working slowly through the curriculum with side trips into (gasp) popular music... I can almost keep up!

And we have a cheapo Yamaha digital piano for the time being (at least it stays in tune) while I try to figure out what to do with our "ratty" Steinway.

???

I have no idea what that means... <confused>

Originally Posted By: GEB77
We (I) also like the teacher to "take the heat" when "talented" kids don't want to practice ...

???

I have no idea what that means... <confused>

Sorry Gary, it was late... What I meant was, when my daughter doesn't want to practice mommy can say: "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" or "Mrs. P will be so disappointed if you don't come to your lesson prepared" or "It is just like homework" which puts me in the same boat as my daughter rather than making me the nag.

I'm not quite sure what this and your previous post has to do with a teacher raising their rates.

My apologies for going off topic. I think you should give yourself a raise, especially if you are a great teacher.

Advance apologies for continuing the off topic bit.

I would like to suggest that it is possible that your kid might actually be learning more of substance than the kids under the high-pressure and highly pressured teachers. I'll explain my thinking.

High pressure in a community that does this can be toward external measurable results which the lay public understands: high marks in exams, winning in competitions, pieces that sound impressive, "advancing faster" through grade levels etc. Teachers may be forced to compete against each other for customers along that basis, and show those kinds of results.

To get at musicianship and produce a well rounded pianist, you might want to go slower so you can get at all sides. For example: be skilled at reading music, experiencing different composers and styles, learning to interpret music through understanding and that experience. If the goal is to impress judges with what they like to hear, or to go through every grade level as fast as possible, some things will have to be sacrificed. The thing is that many of those skills are "invisible" and don't show up in a way that will impress the general public.

I know this is off topic but maybe it's important enough to mention. You may have a good thing going for your child and the present teacher.

Boy, is this true in many areas of life! When my kid took kung fu, it was all about getting the next belt ASAP. I recall what a wise old Asian Kung Fu master said during a belt testing (by the way, this guy could do a split at age 65 that made most ballerinas look inflexible!) - said he was trying to avoid the American "fast food way of life". That he was trying to hold on to the "old ways" of enjoying the journey, taking the time to get to a destination, rather than racing towards some end with only half the skills truly acquired. Made an impression on me.
Everything seems to be a race these days..

More thoughts on "giving yourself a raise"...

I was talking earlier about how higher prices increase the public's perception that your product is higher quality. I was thinking more about this today, and also realized there is a flip side to this too: It actually affects our own perception of ourself. What effect will it have on your business if you personally perceive that you are a higher quality instructor? By raising fees toward the upper end of the market, we start to feel a part of that market and I think that can have many benefits in all aspects of running a business.

The added benefit of this is that the other teachers in that end of the Market will also begin to see you as a peer. They will also appreciate your effort to raise the up the profession.

However, there seems to be a little cynic inside of us that tries to tear us down and tell us we are not worth it. It comes up with many reason why we shouldn't charge more for our time. I haven't been able to make that voice go completely away, but I make sure its off to the side and not dominating my brain space. We each also have an internal cheer leader that is encouraging us. We need to tap into that to have the courage to better ourselves professionally.