So after playing for 45 minutes, usually my lower and mid back are really hurting. I'm 27, so not too old yet.

Am I possibly sitting incorrectly? Maybe too low or high?

I use a padded piano bench for now, but what do you guys think of using one of those nice office chairs with lumbar support to play the piano? If they are tilted forward a bit I am sure they can be comfortable, but I'm not sure.

Do you have a teacher who can watch you play and comment on your posture? Back pain is definitely a sign that something is wrong. It is not possible for us to discern whether it is from the way you are sitting or from something else. Have you considered seeing a doctor?

In general, your knuckles should reach the fallboard. Your forearms should be roughly parallel to the floor; slightly higher or lower is fine. Your bottom should be on the edge of the bench with the weight on the bones in your bottom and some weight on your feet. Your shoulders should be down and completely relaxed.

I wouldn't recommend an office chair because you will need to sit deeply into it to take advantage of the lumbar support and this will compromise your ability to move. Most pianists are able to sit comfortably on a backless bench because they are sitting properly.

One hint: I found my midback pain was caused by shoulder tension and a bench that was too low. Make sure your shoulders are down and relaxed. Low back pain is another thing entirely. Are you sitting up straight? Do you have back pain at any other time?

Vision problems can also result in back pain.

I also would try removing the padding if it isn't firm enough. If it is like a pillow, then the position keeps changing and your body keeps trying to adjust and that can result in back pain sometimes. I experienced it when I used a pillow with my bench.

Deborah has given good advice too.

Try to record how you sit at the piano while you play, or put a mirror near the piano so you can see your profile. You'd be surprised to see what you look like (or at least, I was!).

Suggestions: yoga and/or Tai Chi, plus some supplemental core muscle exercises like "the plank".

What about a chair with a back? Or are those eventually detrimental?

I don't think that a chair with a back is particularly useful as a "piano chair," as it is almost always recommended that the pianist sit forward on the front edge of seat. Having a back serves little purpose and, as Deborah has implied, if a pianist sits so far back on the chair that his/her body touches the back, then the whole "balance" necessary for movement and for tone production is compromised.

For the healthy pianist without physical problems, the best piano-playing "support" is correct posture.

Regards,

I had back pain when playing for any more thyan around 45 minutes. I bought an office chair such as you describe, with good low back support, and have played up to five or six hours straight with no problems.

Regards.

See a physical therapist.

I've had severe back pain over the years and finally saw a physical therapist who gave me very specific exercises to do at home and at the gym. As a result of those exercises I very rarely have any back pain and when I do it goes away within one day; before those exercises I would be incapacitated for weeks at a time. I'm 61 and can move all my musical job equipment myself now.

I can sit at the piano for hours without problems whereas a few years ago I would have have pain.

See someone who has gone to college specifically for skeletal\muscular problems ... a physical therapist.

Of course you are free to take advice from those individuals who have absolutely no formal medical training.

Back pain is not a philosophical, metaphysical or spiritual issue, it's a medical condition and should be addressed by those with medical training.

1+
Especially if you're only 27 ...
( I might add see an MD if you're experiencing this at any other times, too, I prefer an official diagnosis FIRST).

Are you physically fit (not over weight)? Do you exercise regularly? 45 min is too short of a duration to cause any fatigue.

DaveH you used to, I believe, like I once did, use an office chair?

I'm the same age as you, physically fit, active, play sports, do core, back and ab exercises etc. But, I cannot sit in a back less chair (stool) for more than 10 minutes, with or without piano, without getting back pain.

I now use a 'dining' chair, slight tilt forward, with lumbar support such that I don't have to sit deep or right back to have that support, and no longer have problems playing piano.

Diagnosis first, I agree especially for someone age 27, then take the appropriate fix from there.

who am i to suggest to you what to do..

i tell my students to stretch and stand tall as possible before practicing.. to reach for the stars and reach taller as one becomes unbalanced.. kind of like a ballet dancer with feet crossed some of the time.

then i have them bend as low as possible (as in in a bow with straight legs) to stretch the back of the legs and back.

then to sit as erect as possible, with stomach muscles tight, and arms and hands loosely suspended. One needn't sit constantly with tension but should have a disciplined reference point.

I'd constantly test different seat heights, and positions to find what suits your particularly body type best.

welcome to aging.

Take a look at the thread at the Piano Forum about using a chair or bench that tilts towards the front. Seems to help some people and you could try it once just by putting something under the back legs of the bench.

This is almost certainly a core strength issue. I was having the same problem and it was caused by sitting on my rear end all day at work. My GP said 'join a gym, get a trainer'. I did so and he gave me some exercises (along with cardio) that specifically build the lower back and stomach muscles. HUGE difference. After a little more than 2 years of going to the gym 1-2 times a week and working specifically on this problem I can play the piano for hours with no problem whatsoever. I also feel generally better.

yes, probably you're sitting incorrectly or you had some other problems related from the past. Some accident, fall etc.
Avoid medical advice and I'm talking this from my own experience. Go to physical therapist and take series of massages, then take a few piano lessons and check your position at the piano. Massage is a necessity not only for a sportsmen but also for a musicians so this is not one time fix. And finally yes - back pain can have psychological background as well. Read a book "mind body connection" if you like.

spanishbudda, DaveH you used to, I believe, like I once did, use an office chair?

I still use an office chair though a pretty expensive chair ... and it's time for me to buy a new one.

There is no point in avoiding medical advice if you need it. If you try the ordinary things and the pain still gives you a problem, or gets worse, consult an orthopedist. With a proper diagnosis, the doctor might recommend a course of physical therapy, or maybe some other things.

Even if you're in good shape, you can have lower back pain. The treatment is specific to the diagnosis; until you know what's going on physically, it's hard to know what to do to help it. You can (I have found out) ruin yourself with the best of good intentions. So, the education you can get with an appropriate medical consult can help you out a lot... just as ignorance can hurt you a lot.

I hope that the ordinary things do work out for you--- they are certainly worth a try.

Its funny how people quickly suggest going to a massage salon or a therapist/doctor. I had back pain too when I used a bench with a pillow on it. It went away as soon as I threw the pillow away.

The OP asked specifically about bench height and other physical aspects of piano playing that he/she could possibly be doing wrong, and people suggest going to the doctor. This forum is funny at times. The OP might very well need a doctor after all of these suggestions fail but to suggest a doctor right now is premature and misguided, to say the least.

Oh dear! That's really really not good. Maybe ok for 'young' people, and I don't know where to draw the line for that. If you're doing this with 'older' adults, please stop.

The proper way to stretch the back is a bit like, but not quite, what you see when Muslim's kneel, and bow to pray. Just to give you the picture. But leave it to the professionals.

In the Netherlands you don't need to see your family doctor first to obtain a prescription for a physical therapist, you can make your appointment directly.

Are you saying they should listen to the non-medical advise of complete strangers on the internet?

Who needs a prescription to see a physical therapist?

The suggestion to use firm padding if using padding isn't too dangerous and is absolutely worth trying before spending money going to the doctor. The suggestion to keep wrists (and arms) parallel to the floor (and hence the arm and wrist aligned) while playing and to keep the shoulders relaxed is absolutely worth trying before going for medical intervention because it may be totally unnecessary. Medical help should be considered if none of these suggestions work because many people here have gone through the same problems and have come up with simple solutions like using the correct posture to play the piano. If people started visiting the doctor for every little niggle, we'd be spending all our money on doctor's appointments. You shouldn't be advising people to go to the doctor unless you think that's the only reasonable option left. So did you really think it was the only reasonable option left in this case?

I experience back pains a lot when I go to the music building at my university. I think it is because people often steal or break the benches that came with the pianos and the school replaces them with random benches...some of which are not high enough or are too high for the piano. Its a pain being hunched over like that!

thank you for your thoughts.

No, I just thought it was interesting coming from you, who has told others to shun the advice of anonymous pianists on the topic of music interpretation. Apparently medical advise is okay.

Thank you guys - I am going to work on my posture as I think that may be the issue. I'll report back!

If you read what I wrote carefully enough, you would have seen that what I wrote there was that if people wanted to consider advice from anonymous pianists, they should first talk to their teachers about the advice received here and not blindly accept it as ground truth and base all their future work on the advice received here. I spoke from personal experience where I know for a fact that taking advice here did some harm. Nobody really has the right to question that because that's my personal experience. How can you possibly refute it?

Medical advice isn't ok (where did I say that?). What people gave here wasn't medical advice. It was technical advice, which yet again, should be discussed with his/her teacher if they have one.

it must be the problem of your posture. i could play forever and never feel any back pain. also, don't sit too high, which would make your hunch over keyboard and cause your back pain too.

one solution is to video tape yourself playing, and then look at that yourself to see if something is wrong with your posture, and then make adjustment yourself.

I think I found the first problem - I recently ordered a new piano bench, and the one I was using was much too high. That definitely gave me a few issues I did not have before. I just got it to the right height with the new one, and unfortunately today I pulled a muscle in my back when reaching for something! I think it is because of the bad posture/height playing for a few hours a day over the last week.

As I get better I will test it at the right height, so far it seems much better.

crash, where do you live? are there teachers of the alexander technique near you?

most conservatories offer AT and some require their students to study it. it's a great place to start with having good body mechanics for playing the piano.

it's difficult for someone to correct their posture on their own. you really need someone to observe what you are doing and help you get accustomed to what a balanced posture feels like.

I agree that it does help to have someone who knows observe what you are doing!