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Can anyone explain why double trills are so difficult? Playing single trills with a variety of finger combinations is relatively easy, for the most part, but why not double trills?
Thanks.
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It is because the muscles of your fingers are interdependent. If you would like to know more, you should study anatomy.
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I've got a double trill in the piece I'm working on. The trick is in the fingering. Is it possible for you to trill 2+4 (lower notes) and 1+5 (higher notes)?
Best regards,
Deborah
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I see it as an extension of why scales in double notes are harder than ordinary scales. The physical challenge is way different and much harder.
The difficulty of a double trill depends, for me, on what the notes are (and, therefore, what fingerings are possible). A trill in thirds between 1-5 and 2-4 isn't hard at all. If it's 1-4 and 2-5 (which for example is the best fingering, for me, in the opening of Chopin's Op. 25 No. 6), it's significantly harder. And I find a trill between 1-3 and 2-4 to be impossible except at very slow speed!
(By the way, I also have problems with accompanied trills in general - where for example the trill is 4-5 or 3-5 and notes must also be played (and sometimes held) with the thumb or index finger.)
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I've got a double trill in the piece I'm working on. The trick is in the fingering. Is it possible for you to trill 2+4 (lower notes) and 1+5 (higher notes)? Which piece?? I did a double trill in Chopin's 4th scherzo in the right hand using 1-3 and 2-5, which worked out okay.
Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II
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The right fingering + use of the wrist laterally (edit: rotation, is what I meant, didn't get the word for it earlier) is probably what will help.
Last edited by liszt85; 12/27/11 02:23 PM.
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Speaking of double trills, I'm trying to work on etude op 25 no 6.
I think I read that double trilles should be executed by rotation of the hand. But, for example in the opening bars there's no way I can rotate my hand (left to right), the best I can manage is a sort of rocking back and forth. I also tried keeping my hand still and just push the fingers down, but I find it hard to keep them in synch.
(I play 2-4 and 1-5)
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Actually, I'm not working on a piece that calls for double trills. I was really asking in a more general, I guess physiological way, why double trills are difficult. Is there something about the musculature of the hand and/or arm that causes the difficulty?
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Some pairs of fingers use the same muscles.
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Jack Gibbons gave me some advice when I asked about Chopin's 25-6 etude:
JG: "Ethan, one tip I would give is to work at the etude with a non legato touch - very slowly, but with an exceptionally relaxed wrist. Trying to play the double thirds legato can often increase the tension in your hand and make the piece unplayable, so I would advise working at it slowly in a non-legato fashion making sure every single chord is placed without any tension in your wrist or hand. Then gradually increase the tempo and the scales will come across as legato once you have learned to keep your wrist and hand tension free. A good fingering is essential of course, so be prepared to try alternative fingerings - whatever keeps your hand relaxed. One final point: maintaining a good sense of rhythm in the scales also helps to create the illusion of smoothness. Hope this helps!"
Me: "Thank you! Does this also work with the back-and-forth trills?"
JG: "Yes, any of the double-thirds passages. For your info my fingering for the opening (different to Chopin's) is 3-1 and 5-2 for the first 3 bars and then 3-1, 5-2, 3-1, 5-2 for circular pattern of the 4th bar - but it all depends on the shape of your hand."
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What struck me about trying a double trill (not within the context of a piece) is how awkward it feels, as if it presents a problem of coordination. A little like rubbing your stomach and patting your head simultaneously. I imagine that is explained by the sharing of muscles that BDB noted.
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Speaking of double trills, I'm trying to work on etude op 25 no 6.
I think I read that double trilles should be executed by rotation of the hand. But, for example in the opening bars there's no way I can rotate my hand (left to right), the best I can manage is a sort of rocking back and forth. I also tried keeping my hand still and just push the fingers down, but I find it hard to keep them in synch.
(I play 2-4 and 1-5) I am no expert on this, but I don't think rotation works for double-note trills, because you can't rotate between the top notes AND also between the bottom notes simultaneously, which is what would be required for it to work. You'd have to have two different centers of rotation going for the one hand and that's not possible. Instead, for double-note trills, the movement might be seen more as up-and-down than as side-to-side.
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I've got a double trill in the piece I'm working on. The trick is in the fingering. Is it possible for you to trill 2+4 (lower notes) and 1+5 (higher notes)? Which piece?? I did a double trill in Chopin's 4th scherzo in the right hand using 1-3 and 2-5, which worked out okay. Beethoven Opus 53 (The Waldstein), Rondo, measures 513-514. I trill the B and D with my RH and the G's with my LH.
Last edited by gooddog; 12/27/11 05:07 PM.
Best regards,
Deborah
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I've got a double trill in the piece I'm working on. The trick is in the fingering. Is it possible for you to trill 2+4 (lower notes) and 1+5 (higher notes)? Which piece?? I did a double trill in Chopin's 4th scherzo in the right hand using 1-3 and 2-5, which worked out okay. Beethoven Opus 53 (The Waldstein), Rondo, measures 513-514. I trill the B and D with my RH and the G's with my LH. Oh, that's actually 2 trills with a held G in the base. So I took it with 1-2 of the right hand playing the trill on the D, 1-2 of the left hand doing the trill on the B, and then the pinkies playing the Gs around the trills.
Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II
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So is a double trill then one that is executed just with one hand? (i.e. the Waldstein example would not be one because they are with two different hands? )
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Beethoven Opus 53 (The Waldstein), Rondo, measures 513-514. I trill the B and D with my RH and the G's with my LH. In my Henle urtext edition, the two trills are written for separate hands. It seems like you're employing a clever hand redistribution to make the passage much harder!  What was the motivation behind doing both trills in one hand? -Jason
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Jack Gibbons gave me some advice when I asked about Chopin's 25-6 etude:
JG: "Ethan, one tip I would give is to work at the etude with a non legato touch - very slowly, but with an exceptionally relaxed wrist. Trying to play the double thirds legato can often increase the tension in your hand and make the piece unplayable, so I would advise working at it slowly in a non-legato fashion making sure every single chord is placed without any tension in your wrist or hand. Then gradually increase the tempo and the scales will come across as legato once you have learned to keep your wrist and hand tension free. A good fingering is essential of course, so be prepared to try alternative fingerings - whatever keeps your hand relaxed. One final point: maintaining a good sense of rhythm in the scales also helps to create the illusion of smoothness. Hope this helps!"
Me: "Thank you! Does this also work with the back-and-forth trills?"
JG: "Yes, any of the double-thirds passages. For your info my fingering for the opening (different to Chopin's) is 3-1 and 5-2 for the first 3 bars and then 3-1, 5-2, 3-1, 5-2 for circular pattern of the 4th bar - but it all depends on the shape of your hand." thanks! I'm going to try this.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 120
Full Member
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Speaking of double trills, I'm trying to work on etude op 25 no 6.
I think I read that double trilles should be executed by rotation of the hand. But, for example in the opening bars there's no way I can rotate my hand (left to right), the best I can manage is a sort of rocking back and forth. I also tried keeping my hand still and just push the fingers down, but I find it hard to keep them in synch.
(I play 2-4 and 1-5) I am no expert on this, but I don't think rotation works for double-note trills, because you can't rotate between the top notes AND also between the bottom notes simultaneously, which is what would be required for it to work. You'd have to have two different centers of rotation going for the one hand and that's not possible. Instead, for double-note trills, the movement might be seen more as up-and-down than as side-to-side. Exactly. I think what you describe as up-and down is what i meant with back and forth. It odes help a bit, but it feels awkward.
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The first time I met a double trill (in one hand) I remember I found it quite difficult too. It was one of those "fractures" I had to really work on, but now it is much better (although not perfect...  ). I think what I did was make them sound as smooth and uninterrupted as possible while at the same time mentally associating them in "sections" (like you would do with counterpoint, so total independence and unity at the same time so to speak).
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6000 Post Club Member
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Beethoven Opus 53 (The Waldstein), Rondo, measures 513-514. I trill the B and D with my RH and the G's with my LH. In my Henle urtext edition, the two trills are written for separate hands. It seems like you're employing a clever hand redistribution to make the passage much harder! What was the motivation behind doing both trills in one hand? -Jason I'm using Henle also. The single handed trill was my teacher's suggestion and I find it much, much easier and more even too.
Best regards,
Deborah
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