After all my searching I've finally narrowed it down to these 2 pianos. I know that the RX2 is supposedly in a higher quality category, at least according to the very knowledgable Larry Fine, but the tone and touch of the Hailun impressed me, and clocking in at ~10k less than the RX2, the 178 is currently winning the battle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than willing to pay the price of the Kawai but only if it's going to mean some kind of payoff down the road in terms of longevity

I know SOMEONE out there will be able to point me in the right direction!!

im assuming you know about the Hailun Vienna series.. if your willing to get a smaller piano, its probably worth the wait.. and i heard they are already available at some dealers.

If they are, I hope some one will post the name/city of any such dealers.

I've already played on the 180V at the Hailun dealer, beautiful piano throughout, it's going to be more on par with an RX3 as far as price goes, not sure if I can swing it

Please forgive me if I over analyzed your post. Not very often people ask: Is it OK to buy a Yamaha, Kawai or Steinway? Partially because these names have been strongly branded over the years through universities, artist and all the marketing around them.

Maybe simplistic but in my opinion this is what you really experiencing:

You: The Hailun is 10K less than the RX and I think they are close in performance and quality.
You: I need somebody besides the salesman to convince me that the Hailun is way cheaper than the RX and it is as good or better.
You: I need somebody to assure me that even though the Hailun is not a long established name it will perform as good as the RX over the years.

Me: I’m a Kawai dealer and I will tell you that is OK to buy the Hailun regardless of your uncertainty.

Symon, at what dealer did you play the 180V?

I had the same dilemma about 3 years ago. I evaluated an RX-2 right next to an HG178. In my opinion, the middle area of the keyboard sounded the same on the two instruments. The bass of the RX-2 was very good, but the HG 178 projected better. The treble secion of the RX-2 was not as bell-like as the HG178, and the sustain of the HG178 was better, expecially in the treble.

The touch of the RX-2 was lighter than the HG178, but both were very smooth.

I would still choose the HG178, but I have often played an older Kawaii (GS40) and have come to like Kawaii quite a bit. The tone of the Kawaii is unique, and it is mellow.

If I had it to do over again, I would still choose the HG178, but by a narrower margin. I suggest you try the tone and touch tests described above and listen for what you prefer. That should help you decide. The money, of course, is something that only you can decide.

Best of luck, and let us know what you decide.

Hop

Yours has become a more common comparison than you might think because it is a good battle. The individual strengths of each make them best sellers but their relative strengths naturally make you question the Hailun by asking...what's the catch? Well, to date we're not seeing any reports of any catch from Hailun or the other brands they build for. Hailun has invited as many technicians as possible to look over and through them at every PTG conference or opportunity, and they keep getting the thumbs up.

I could get into the minutia of little things I prefer about each, but at the end of the day, $10k up front difference is much greater than any comparison of resale or dealer prep or any other "costs" of ownership. So that leaves you with preference of performance and aesthetics - the best battleground for your invested purchase.

As far as the ratings go, Fine has always included some measure of brand equity into the categories. Kawai has it and Hailun is working to get it. Is that the primary reason for a higher rating? Quite possibly. If the extra $10k provides you with comfort, then you've reasonably put a price on that comfort.

40 years ago, Kawai was the brand working to get it and they had many of the same things going for them that Hailun has now. I see clear parallels: a younger manufacturer with efficient production, cost advantages and new competitive designs taking on the older, established brands with higher prices and higher cost structures.

Buyers are facing a very unique market today.

At one time the idiom "what you pay is what you get" made perfect sense. It provided a certain sense of comfort in that one didn't have to check things out too closely - *price* basically told the story.

Today this is no longer the case, at least "not necessarily" so.

Ironically, I had this discussion before with several high end Euro makers when for example discussing the price of a Sauter versus a Bosendorfer, Fazioli or a New York Steinway versus a Mason Hamlin, Shigeru.

Mix into this some lower priced Schimmels,Estonias, Seilers and what have you - and the confusion is complete.

In the lower tiers, things are getting ever more confusing:
how can a piano that fits one perfectly yet costing less be the right, i.e. "worry-free" choice?

This,without upsetting an established mindset from before?

Considering that this seems to be happening all across the tiers with less and less logic often present, perhaps the better question would be:

"What exactly am I gaining by spending more, especially "much more" without realizing a somewhat tangible, i.e. "identifiable" benefit for it"?

To which everybody surely must find his/her own answer.

Norbert

I was in the same boat when I started doing my grand shopping.
I initially was looking to buy a Kawai but was not able to find much on the used market and what I could find was old and over priced.
(The best I could find was a 30 year old one at an estate sale for 8K but it was snapped up within minutes and before I could grab it.)
I then made a point to check out the Hailuns because of all the good reviews I had read online and the HG178 is what I was focused on since that fit my budget.
There was NO WAY I could have afforded a brand new RX2, so I essentially was deciding between a used RX2 (if I could find one) and a brand new HG178.
However the three Hailun 178s that I tried all sounded and felt great, although each was voiced slightly different (and the inner rim bird's-eye maple really blew me away).
I eventually managed to swing a GREAT deal on a Hailun 198 (which I never even briefly considered until the dealer threw a great price at me out of the blue).
I'm still thrilled everyday that I sit down and play it.
Kawai may have a great reputation but in my opinion the RX2 is definitely NOT worth 10k more than the HG178.
In fact if the names were completely blocked out, and I had no way of knowing which was which, I probably would have picked the Hailun. Name recognition to me is not worth 10K.
There is only one regret that I have with the Hailun, and that is that it is not available in a Satin finish.
(I'm not a big fan of high-gloss black).

There are some people that are very threatened by some of the better Chinese pianos although more and more honest dealers are admitting that they are great quality for a great price.
(I'm sure that Mike Carr will soon come in and trash talk the "plywood" soundboard on the 178).

Also, check out the Brodmann if you can. It too is a very good piano for the price.
I think the Chinese pianos are at a point where the Japanese pianos once were. At one time many people tried to warn people away from anything "made in Japan" because Japan had a reputation for putting out cheaper copy-cat products.
The Japanese got much better with their quality, just like the Chinese are doing now.
However the Chinese pianos are still very affordable but they won't be affordable forever.
Heck, if you actually had the extra 10K that the Kawai costs I would then buy a much larger piano (Hailun 218 or Brodmann 212). Those are real impressive.

Which piano do you like better?

Glad it wasn't me saying this....

Norbert

I haven't play the Hailun, so I have nothing against Chinese brands, but it seems odd that it's comparable to an RX2, yet 10K less. How are they able to charge so much less? If Hailun is able to provide the same quality and durability of higher-priced instruments at a more reasonable cost, then that's great. It's sad that there are so many fine instruments out there that are so very expensive.

They are different pianos using different components and designs; but the results are not terribly different enough for some/many to justify the $10k difference. There ya have it. So here's a question for you... you got the RX-6 and not a shorter piano from the next bracket up like a Schimmel or a Walter. Would this be somewhat along the same line of thought behind Sparky McBiff's suggestion?

Thanks for all of your feedback!!

After over a month of serious piano deliberation, as well as wife alienation, I picked myself up an HG178 today from Don's Piano in St. Albert Alberta! A great piano and a great buying experience, will post pics when it arrives.

P.S. Don't worry to all you hopefuls, the 180V is still there

Congratulations Symon!

After you owned your piano for a while, go out perhaps one more time and compare it at that time to pianos 10 k more.

Amazing what the "after shopping" experience can reveal at that later point in time....

Enjoy your new piano!

Norbert

Why are so many consumer products we buy made in China today? It might have something to do with labor costs being a small fraction of what they are in Japan, America and Europe.

Note that Hailun also has some pianos priced in the same general range with Kawai. There are some people (myself included) who are always going to pick the piano that's $10,000 cheaper if it's even remotely close to the same features and quality. And there are other people who want a $25,000 or $50,000 piano and they won't even consider cheaper ones even if they can't tell the difference.

Not everyone in the world is out to find the cheapest possible product. A clever vendor will try to cover as many potential price points as possible so as not to leave money on the table from any of them.

A few reasons I got the Kawai...from what I've read, and based on the underlying physics, I believe that longer is better. Most importantly, in the end, it boiled down to sound and touch. I really wanted to like the Walter. I think I played their longest grand. It was a very nice piano, but the tone just didn't suit my taste. The Walter appeared to be good quality, and the price was less than my RX.

Even thought I didn't choose the Walter, I think they are providing a great piano at a reasonable price. I hope that other brands, like Hailun, can do the same thing. Maybe some of the other manufacturers out there (whose pianos are ridiculously overpriced) will take notice, especially when their profits start to sag.

I would've like to try a Hailun, but have never seen one in person

A New Hailun 178 on ebay $12,700 + moving from VA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hailun-Grand-Pia...a#ht_500wt_1254
Tempting!!

Obvously at this point, the HG 178 has won the battle over the Kawai and over the Hailun V 180, which I believe you reported earlier was priced in the mid-twenties Canadian.

I think Supply's answer of labor cost fills a good part of the price gap. China has a plentiful supply of wood products to harvest as well, including spruce tonewood. Obviously one of the reasons the V is priced higher is the imported solid board. The domestic laminate in the HG seems to function very well in my opinion, but there's obviously a cost savings for Hailun there even though for you in your climate the laminate may actually be superior. Other materials may be cheaper in China as well. Virtually everything in Japan is expensive, including raw materials.

Then there's production efficiency. I'm sure Kawai is no slouch, but Hailun obviously has it down to a science both in terms of component manufacture and piano assembly. They are building a lot of pianos these days as well as filling more orders for parts and parts assemblies from other makers.

Responsible dealers of Hailun have posted on this forum that the company could have better QC and that the pianos require more prep work on their own part than pianos manufactured in Japan in order to make up for slack at the factory. There are other Hailun retailers here who would have you believe that there's no slack to fill. You be the judge. In any case, if Don takes prep work seriously, whatever gap there is in prep should be filled before you take delivery.

Kawai also sets prices higher because it can set them higher. Of course you're playing for track record, proven longevity, and service reputation. There are no two ways about that.

Currency conversion shouldn't be overlooked either. The yen is at historic highs against the US dollar, probably the Canadian dollar as well. The yuan is rising incrementally, but that rise is controlled by the Chinese government. They don't want to radically devalue their huge investments in US government debt. Japan doesn't really benefit from such a high yen value. It just encourages the flow of yen outside of the country for foreign tourism, purchase of imports, etc. But the Japanese government has little control.

I don't know how in your shopping the spread came down to 10k between the two pianos. The SMP on the RX2 is 30k US, for the HG 178, it's 15k. A hypoethetical 30% discount on each still leaves a spread wider than 10k. I suppose you don't have lots of have Kawai dealers or dealers of Chinese pianos in intense competition in Edmonton, so maybe that comes into play.

I hope you enjoy your piano and that the 'what if I had.....' question never comes to mind.

It's becoming increasingly clear that there will be even bigger competition in future.

Not just between Chinese and Japanese pianos - but very much between Chinese and Chinese.

Almost 100 companies going at each other - right at world's largest market for pianos.

Competition will centre increasingly around quality - not 'price'

The fall out of all of this will affect every part of the world.

Interesting times ahead - curious who will have to do most of the "hyping" in future...

"HAPPY NEW YEAR" everybody

Norbert

Congratulations on your purchase Symon.
Don't forget to post pictures here once it is in its new home.

Congrats! I hope you like yours as much as I like mine!

Hop

Congratulations Symon!

Don and his crew are a great bunch, and Hailun is a great piano.