Thank you for accepting my membership. I might begin by saying, that I am impressed with the range and variety of thoughts at this forum. Many points have been conscientiously debated, while others have resulted in angry sentiment and unnecessary flames.

In essence we are all here for the same reason, which is to play as well as we can. We may have different targets, different objectives, and different tastes but we all ultimately seek the same resolve – our own internal perfection. Yet, in reading the comments on the many, many posts to read at this place, there is an enormous amount of energy directed at other players – our peers as it were. If I take a little known concert pianist Jorge Demus, some may ask which composer or what works is this performer renowned for? Why do you draw him to our attention?

So if I took a rather better known concert performer Jorge Bolet, some will immediately identify with my choice. Some may have some or many of this artist’s recordings. If I presented the late 1980’s recording of Liszt’s Dante Sonata for general listening attention, a number of comments would ensue (going on the track record of other threads) ranging from “rubbish” to “perfection”. Not dwelling on bigotry, I have seen some attention to lesser known artists being presented as a worthy performance target. Before I comment on the rationale of that it first might be better to throw up this thought. Who was Richter, Horowitz or the great Liszt himself “like”?

We of course do not have any recordings of Liszt, only numerous testimonies. That is not true for Horowitz and Richter who’s performance careers each spanned the piano roll through to modern techniques. Does everyone say Richter and Horowitz are Rachmaninoff, because there were protoges’ of the master? No, because neither sound anything like each other. All are individuals with their own styles, perfections and interpretations. Taking that little known pianist Jorge Demus, should he be known as “like Vladimir Sofrontisky”? Of course not, Jorge Demus is Jorge Demus and he will never be Vladimir Sofrontisky. Comparison with playing styles can only be done piece by piece and not as an effervescent analysis. You Benny Brownlow, 3rd grade student of Chicago High School will only ever be you and you will never be Busoni however hard you try. You will never match Jorge Bolet’s 1989 recording of Liszt’s Dante sonata because you were not there and you are not Jorge Bolet.

Some may wonder, what is the harm in aiming for the famed “Transcendental Technique” of Mitsuko Uchida? At the correct point of development it is not only ‘not harmful’, but a positive step forward is the answer. But to actively single out Uchida, Argerich or even Myra Hess as “my” style would be suicide though, over time, intelligent comparisons of performance styles may beg. Another popular theme of this forum is what came first, the chicken or the egg? To simplify the debate, we all should know that performance can be identified in three distinct “terms” – music, interpretation and technique. Many performers of the modern age shroud themselves in denial as to their duty. They should all remember their first priority is the music, the second dedication is to the creator out of love and devotion to the composer. Thirdly must be described as the love of God, as is the nurturing of personal talent and technical development. Those who claim to be ‘atheist’ and/or students of Richard Dawkins still identify with the God-word and concept whilst rejecting it. Perhaps Pleroma is a better word for these purposes.

It is no wonder why the confusion of priorities has taken hold of modern pianistic tradition. The enormous journey required to reach a point of coherent, focused performance appears all but devoid of anything other than technique perfection. Other than the confusing mystery of the Adagio where the race appears to be to play as slow as possible, currently the sad trend to play faster and louder than anyone else is continuing. Even more plausible is the fact that music cannot be taught, it is inherently inside you. Arguably, more subtly, so is interpretation. Interpretation has been downgraded to influence by those detached from their souls. Some appear unable to see beyond a particular technical style or idiom, rather than addressing deeper matters – the very heart of the music in its absolute perfection. There is an amazing recording by Alfred Cortot floating somewhere out in the big www which acts as a good example. He plays an innocuous little piece by Chabrier and brings something to it that nobody had ever been able to contemplate before. He found the heart of the music which had been eternally beating with no ears or minds capable of capturing it.

I am a great fan of the performer Martha Argerich. Her recording of the Op 28 Chopin preludes has become a trademark “want” of most serious students. She brought something to the number 12 that no one had ever done before. Though she had arguably outdone the great Busoni with her interpretation, he did play the fiendish glissandos of the number 24 note perfect, while she ‘improvised’ (to be nice). This neatly addresses the issue of interpretation. There have been some commentaries about the composer Schubert, which claim he was unable to play some of his piano works and used an Austrian pianist (who’s name escapes) as favourite for premiers. As a composer myself I wrote a four movement piano sonata of what seemed nightmarish proportions 25 years ago. Now I can play it, it is rubbish. The reason it is rubbish is it was not conceived, because I could not play it when I wrote. It is impossible to write MUSIC by accident. Compiling note jumbles is not composing music. Those who champion such works are akin to the supporters of “The Emperors invisible [no] clothes”.

It is well documented that Liszt loved Beethoven’s Hammerklavier, the final movement he adoringly termed “the great fugue”. Did he play it better than Beethoven? How could he? Beethoven invented it, but what is guaranteed is Liszt’s interpretations (never one identical) would have been different to Beethoven’s. Another work Liszt championed was Czerny’s (1st) sonata in Ab Opus 7. Czerny was the pianist Chopin turned to for advice on his composition now known as the “Winter Wind” etude (Opus 25 number 11). Czerny not only gave advice, but Chopin heeded it. That is why the Winter Wind is presented with a slow introduction. For my taste, it works perfectly in place of the other. The point is that IN THE SPIRIT OF THE MUSIC Chopin needed cooperation to find its heart.

Having listened to over 100 performers interpretations of the various works of Beethoven, I keep coming back to Daniel Barenboim as the most in synch. This not to take away Glenn Gould’s memorable performance of the Hammerklavier or Alfred Brendel’s unusually less-than-memorable interpretation or indeed to overlook the extra-ordinary care Emil Gilels took in his attention to detail. If I took a single work in Balakirev’s Islamey Fantasy, of the 26 recordings I have reviewed, not a single one is note-perfect. Yet this time Brendel has to be commended for the most note-perfect performance. As to most authentically in the spirit of Balakirev the honour must be given to Boris Berezovsky. While line honours to most dynamic and brilliant performances would be shared between Evgeny Kissin and Vladimir Horowitz. This is taking nothing away from the others. There were no dogs. Lang Lang, Idel Biret and a Chinese Melbourne junior called Wui held up and all were a worthy listen. The ones highlighted shone for the reasons identified. With all the talk of who was Liszt’s favourite, aside from Von Bulow, was it Smetena who’s “sensitivity no one can reproduce” according to the great maestro? Today performers such as Kissin, Hamelin, Yundi Li [Argerich makes him look like a novice with her 1964(?) recording of Chopin’s 4th scherzo] and so on struggle with sensitivity, as purposeful as their performances are. My current ‘hero’ is Vladimir Ashkenazy, but after tistening to his wayward interpretation of Chopin’s 1st Ballade I find even he is corruptible. But, then again, weighing up commentaries on Liszt’s contemporaries, perhaps this too blighted the “golden age” of the concert craft.

Up late with nothing to do?

What was the question again?

Try as you may, you can't catch up in one post. We won't let you.

You beat me to it.. I was going to say something very similar! Welcome to the forums BachMach2!

Welcome. I look forward to more posts as thoughtful as this one.

I thought you made some very good points[ having studied with the great Bolet myself] but I can't remember them all...

rada

never underestimate the power of dope.

Well, now that we have been condescendingly lectured by a new-comer about how conscientiously we sometimes debate and how we sometimes resort to angry sentiment and unnecessary flames with the conclusion that we are all here for the same reason, I wonder what this “introduction” is all about.

The ramble about who Demus - not a little-known concert artist, by the way - Bolet, Richter, or Horowitz was “like,” followed by observations on contemporary performance standards, and passing references to Cortot’s perfection, Argerich’s ‘improvised’ interpretation , along with numerous other contemporaries and BachMach2’s own “rubbish,” does indeed underline the “confusion of priorities” in this essay.

Does anyone else glean from this "what it means to be a pianist"?

I reservedly say : “Welcome to the Pianist Corner.”

Regards,

BruceD: You read his whole post?

No disrespect intended to BachMach2, but I didn't get all the way through the 2nd paragraph. Perhaps the fault lies in my lack of patience to read through what seemed to be condescending, pedantic musing.

BachMach2 - welcome to the forum. A piece of advice: your lengthy narrative comes across as rather pompous - especially for a newcomer. I think it is fair to say that any posting that exceeds the size of the computer screen will not be read by many - at least until you earn a reputation here. Perhaps offer shorter insights and opinions, rather than long, ponderous essays? While we have many learned scholars here, we tend to be informal and succinct.

Twice, to try to get at the essence of his post.

Regards,

FWIW, I didn't find the OP condescending in the least, and I'm surprised that others here did.

I did find it a little rambling, and maybe a little indulgent... usually posts here are not so long, and when they are, the successful ones are careful to highlight their main points. But so what?

Welcome to the forum, BachMach2.

-J

Nope.

Most of the time I'm just a piano player.

What's the problem, this was interesting to read. Welcome to the forum!

You must be some kind of genius to figure out what the post means.

Since, according to his unusual profile, he plays a "not sure-it was filed off" piano, I wouldn't assume his post was serious.

You are destined for sainthood, I'm sure of it.

tl;dr

I can't stand people being so snooty about classical music, I think that's why it gets a bad rep. Whatever music it is, enjoy it; but if you don't that's fine, you don't need to write a dissertation either way.

So? You're giving us all these random "facts". What are you trying to prove?

Yeah..it is like a dissertation. But he has the patience to write such a long post like that....two thumbs up for the effort. I have no patience to read his post.

but i looks like copy and paste from totally different topics

Omg I just read the whole thing and I have absolutely nothing to say...perhaps the op is talking about the importance of piano as art as opposed to athleticism? I'm going to have to chew on this morsel more though if I'm going to respond with anything coherent.

What it means to be a ... silent pianist.

So many silent profiles.

Adderall is a heck of a drug.

Check here

regards,

Oh... Well, based on BachMach2's essay and attempt to play all the Beethoven sonatas, s/he seems to be passionate about piano and this is certainly the right place to share that devotion. Let's give him/her a chance to become accustomed to the "culture" here.

Condescending, to put it nicely, are some of the answers that followed the op. At least be polite. I read posts and opinions here from time to time that i consider utter rubbish, i just don t feel the need to point them out. What was actually wrong with the OP?

I'm assuming we're getting trolled by the OP, either intentionally or unintentionally... doesn't matter.

This is further confirmed by his attempts of trying to record the first 8 Beethoven Sonatas -- which are a joke. The original post is heavily drenched in arrogant rhetoric from someone that has no skill at the keyboard to back it up. And finally, it is also quite rude to push theistic beliefs onto others.

Well, there is something mighty strange about his mentioning Ashkenazy's "wayward interpretation" of Chopin's 1st Ballade, while at the same time making some downright laughable recordings. It's impossible for him to listen with such a fine, critical ear to other musicians, yet not be able to hear what he himself is playing. I would bet he is a fine musician with a gift for parody; he must have some gift to learn all those sonatas, record them in recognizable form yet with just enough wince-inducing passages to make the listener wonder what is going on. And that's putting it mildly

Regardless of what we all think of the original post, it seems pointless and a waste of time to continue to comment on it unless the OP also participates in the discussion. The same thing applies to his thread with the Beethoven recordings.

I wanted to say something similar and then deleted it because I wanted to give the OP a chance to come respond to some of these posts. I agree completely with the above posts. Those recordings (the 8 sonatas posted by the OP) can be claimed to be perfect with small errors only by somebody delusional.

It is distressing to see a newcomer being eviscerated like this on the forum. His first post may have been verbose and his recordings of the Beethoven sonatas may not be the greatest but he is an amateur doing this for the love of it. His goal of recording all the Beethoven sonatas is certainly a laudable one. Why not just offer him suggestions for improvement instead of calling him delusional and a troll?

Because the first step towards improvement is to fully realize what aspects of one's playing suck. Clearly, the OP has no clue whatsoever and seems to completely believe that those sonatas are almost perfect. We are doing him/her a favor, I assure you of that.

It's not clear to me how calling someone delusional informs him of the aspects of his playing that suck.

+1

I couldn't much make it past the first couple of paragraphs, and just quickly scanned the rest. It was way too disorganized and unfocused for me. I figured I'd wait to see what other posts he might have, now that he got this off his chest.

And Here

Somehow I am reminded of PartyPianist...

I'm hoping!

Very interesting.

Welcome to the forum. I couldn't read your entire post as I am a little short on time right now. But, many people are wondering what the purpose of this was, as am I.
It may have made more sense if you introduced yourself and then started a new thread saying something like, "Here is a lecture I wrote on piano performance. What do you think?" and then writing this out.

-Will

The Box Net recordings - OMG, nuff said - are attributed to a Steve Gillmore. I searched and found this at another piano forum:

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36850.0

It is indeed PartyPianist!

I don't think so, jazzy, unless you're just having a bit of pre-New Years Eve fun. I well remember PartyPianist's recordings, and they were in a different class altogether.

It doesn't, I said it because its true.

I'm sorry, yea, you're right. The OP is absolutely right in his classification and was not being delusional with his description of his playing. Listen to the ballades, beautiful playing! Even better is the recording quality. He calls the performances "exciting" but I'd say that's an understatement. He deserves to be out there with the greats, playing on stage and I'm sure people like you will pay good money to hear him play.

Let me know if you listened to every bit of the first ballade at a decent volume. Tell me then if that performance is exciting. Let me also know then if you think the OP isn't delusional after that and I'll have to go to my profile setting to make a slight change in my ignore user settings.

The person who suggested that the OP might have trolled all of us is absolutely correct. The OP did not bother to respond to anything here but chose to go to another forum to post more recordings (and more delusional statements to go along with them).

Did you?

I think you're confusing PartyPianist with JustAnotherPianist, whose recordings were in a completely different league. Trust me, this BachMach2 is PartyPianist in another guise. I remember one of his posts regarding the Beethoven sonatas:

Do you think I'm crazy? (Well, maybe some people do, but crazy enough to do that? I hope not!)

Well no, I remember JustAnotherPianist as being utterly SUPERB. (We exchanged a few PMs- nice bloke, and missed here.) I thought that the recordings of BachMach2 were better than what I recall of PartyPianist (remember he only posted a few measures at a time?), but you may well be correct... yeah, I think you are. Thanks!

Was PartyPianist somewhat delusional, JazzyProf, what do you think? Just curious.

I do not think you crazy at all, I did not make it through the G minor Ballade beyond 30 seconds. If there were great musical revelations later on, well, better luck to me next time.

I thought this was PartyPianist just from his writing style in the intro to the Beethoven recordings (I've only listened to a few seconds of the actual recordings). I think PP was either delusional, or he was having a ton of fun pulling our collective legs.

I'm not qualified to judge his mental condition. I believe that's Mark C's territory.

Omigod -- that 4th Ballade is almost as good as mine!

Yeah.
We can't at all rule out "the return of."


Almost absolutely the latter. He/she clearly had very, very fine pianistic skills which he couldn't hide.

From the beginning I knew that the OP was just pulling legs. Liszt85, you are so gullible.....The OP did it on purpose to play like that. It is totally impossible for someone who can play the first 8 Beethoven sonatas and play like that, or listen to his Ballades, this guy has the correct interpretation, he just did it on purpose to blur things, hit the chords loudly, mess up the counting, etc.

I thought you are pursuing a degree in psychological science or something like that. You should have more keen sense.

Well, if he/she is a student, he/she might be bored right now (very long holidays) and had time to come back...

Mark C is too nice a person.. he wouldn't call somebody delusional even if he thinks somebody is. He'll probably say "Ah, you seem to be in somewhat less than perfect senses, yet you make some sense , however that again depends on the sense in which you mean sense, there are so many definitions of sense, but I think we can conclude from the above that sense here is in the sense of sense as in "that makes a lot of sense!".. hope you kinda agree with me. ".

Yours is a bit cleaner......HAHAHAHAAHHA....Just kidding.

Hey, L85 -- great impression! That's pretty darn close!

In fact, it's better.

Oh, of all the people who thought his playing sucked, I'm the only one gullible? Hmm.. interesting. You're right, I do study Psychology and this post of yours, singling me out, is very telling! I suggest you get over whatever issues you have with me and make better use of your time here (and one doesn't have to study Psychology to be able to say this, you are that very transparent here).

"Has the correct interpretation, but he purposefully banged chords loudly, and messed up counting". WOW, you must be some kind of genius to make out from that mess that he had the "correct interpretation"! Pray tell us, what is the "correct interpretation"?

Why do I even bother? Yes, I'm gullible that way, responding to these posts.

I joined that other forum so I could search out posts involving the Slow Concert Pianist person there - who is apparently the same person as BachMach. The recordings are all *very* similar, and they provoked similar reactions as here - no surprise.

BUT this person on that other board had pretty bad writing skills also. So I think the original post here was copied and pasted - didn't somebody suggest that already on account of it being incoherent? - and his language skills are really equal to his piano chops. OR on the other hand - maybe the writing skills *and* the recordings were a deliberate put-on?

I go with the 'delusional' theory. At the other place he got totally bent-out-of-shape at criticism and seemed dead serious, mentioning studying at a conservatory in Australia with a professor who thought he was great.

PartyPianist once mentioned he/she was looking for a place where he/she could practice in Sydney, if I remember correctly. HA! More clues that they are indeed the same person...

That was PartyPianist's story too.

However, as he hasn't been back, or entered into any discussion, chances are this is pointless.

This is like Peter Pan! 'All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.'

Well, it is party time...