Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Any midi controllers for classical music?

Are there any controllers that just house hammer action keys with some in/out components for running your favorite VST's? I see a ton of midi controllers with sliders, knobs, buttons and extra features that I wouldn't use, also the action seems pretty suspect on some of these units for a serious pianist.

For example:

CME UF8

SL 990 XP

M Audio

I like the simplicity of the M Audio, but the semi weighted action is a no go for me.

I've seen the Numa line from Studiologic, specifically the Nero and Numa White and they look like they would do the trick.

Was wondering if there are any others out there that have a decent enough action to practice classical music on?

Kawai MP10

Haha, that has lots of unnecessary features: onboard sounds!

MM has a good point, though. There aren't really a lot of good MIDI controllers out there in terms of keyboard quality. Unfortunately you have to pay for the whole digital piano most of the time.

The nero is probably the closest I can think of to a really high quality MIDI controller. Half the world thinks it's amazing and the other half think it's garbage, so on average it's just ok.

Kawai MP10, or...

Must be hinting at the new ES perhaps!?

Yeah from the reviews I've read regarding the Nero it's either been a hit or a miss. I did manage to find quite a few vids on youtube of the Nero using the Ivory2 and Garritan VST's. They sound great, but the only thing I've yet to try is the action.

Possibly.
Possibly not.

Haha fair enough, winter NAMM will be upon us soon so time will tell.

Although the Kawai mp10 is a fantastic stage piano with realistic action, I also agree that it is a little much for someone who just wants a midi controller with out any extra features. I'll have to see what NAMM brings or try some of these controllers out for myself.

I read some interesting things last night regarding the Numa Nero and it's action the TP40Wood. Some users of the Nero have been complaining of velocity issues that apply to the midi data strip when you strike a key. One guy went as far as buying a PNOscan Midi strip and replacing the Studiologics with it. Makes me curious if one can get an old set of there favorite action from an acoustic or digital and put in place the PNO strip and use that as there controller.

Link

I also found a person that did just that and the results sound amazing. http://www.ltecmusic.com/
A couple of videos in the videos section of the website showing the action and the midi strip.

I'm guessing portability isn't an issue?

I know that Freddie Mercury had a Grand piano set up with some kind of pickups on it. Midi strip? There is a youtube video showing him adjusting it at the start of Bohemian Rhapsody. Yes during a concert on stage.

Was told Billy Joel had the same kind of setup at one time.

Yes the ltec link that I posted shows you videos of the PNOscan midi strip. But he uses an action, either from a grand piano or some other digital piano in conjunction with a VST to make music.

From the looks of the video it looks pretty portable to me you would just need a computer for the software piano.

I was responding to the for the "serious pianist". If you want a good controller, it will need to be a stage piano. You will not find a MIDI controller (without sounds) that will suffice.

That LTEC keyboard looks fascinating - thanks for sharing it! Looks like it might be a full custom design. It's interesting that it appears to be partially spring loaded. It seems that real action is slightly spring loaded too, by virtue of the repetition lever & jack spring. I hope that the LTEC is not too springy, but it would be fantastic to have something that is adjustable and appears to be so easy to pull apart and maintain.

Greg.

Regarding the PNOscan strip, in another thread we were discussing locations for sensors and concluded that the correct place for a sensor is on the hammer, not under the key, because there are lots of ways of striking a piano key such that the hammer will fly up and hit the strings without the actual key going all the way down.

I haven't heard anyone talk about this with respect to PNOscan, but the discussion definitely raised some questions in my mind about whether PNOscan really is better. The avantgrand has sensors under the keys but also on the hammers, and I suspect it is the latter sensors that do the velocity calculation. Similarly, Kawai's silent piano technology (for their acoustics) uses sensing of the hammers, not the keys, despite the fact that under the keys is a much simpler place to put it. Makes me think there might be a reason.

Is it possible that some players who feel that they have to "play deeper" on a DP than on a grand, are really saying "they have to lift their fingers up higher"? We know that a grand allows notes to be repeated for relatively shallow key returns (under 50%), and I'm just wondering whether it could be this aspect that is bothering some players, more than the ability to accelerate the hammers without having to depress the keys all the way. It's just a thought.

Greg.

I don't know about that. The Nero NUMA is pretty darn good; action is very piano-like. Problem is getting one. The wait for it keeps getting bumped and bumped again. I got tired of waiting and got the MP10.

I see that there's a NUMA in pretty good condition up on the electric bay right now...

Curt

Ltec looks like a really interesting controller. Unfortunately it appears to be vaporware. I feel like I saw the web page for the first time some time ago but they are still "in development" with nothing added nor any indication of when you might be able to purchase one. I doubt that it will ever be a reality. If it was they would have done the development first and then started actually marketing it rather than just thinking out loud on a web page.

A while ago I posted a link to a page by petrof indicating that they will build a midi controller made out of a real petrof grand action and some kind of midi strip. They had all sorts of interesting pictures and styles you could get. Also vaporware. I sent an email to several different contacts at petrof indicating my interest. No one ever responded.

Actually, just getting a PNOscan strip can be surprisingly difficult. I was thinking about building my own when Petrof ignored me, so I started looking for a PNOscan on the internet. It can't be bought. So I contacted the company like 5 different ways. Finally they got back to me and told me to go to a local piano retailer. Ok I contacted them. Another long wait. They got back to me finally. I mentioned what I wanted and asked how much it would be. They never returned my email.

There are no well-marketed and distributed midi controllers of decent quality. Studiologic is as close as you can get. But the problems getting a nero indicate that they have distribution problems as well.

James! Now I really can't wait until the Jan. NAMM. Sounds like something new coming from Kawai. Unfortunately I still can't seem to get my hands on an MP6. Good action and a software piano may be tempting if all the pieces added up to a decent (low) price!

@gvarns the PNOScan can be bought at http://www.midi9.com/products.htm

Also for those interested the TP40WOOD Nero keys can be bought Here

So essentially you can buy both and put them both together to make a killer midi controller. The only thing you would need is something to house the keys in.

This is very interesting and the pianoteq link above has the guy building this with detailed pics and videos.

My pleasure! When I first found that you can make your own controller with just the PNO midi strip and keys I was ecstatic! That Ltec board does look awesome and the sounds from pianoteq sound great to me. I like just how simple the design is also with no levers, knobs or wheels.

KHen,

The PNOscan link there that supposedly points to a place you can buy it points to QRS. Same guys that I contacted to begin with that referred me to the local guy. Go to the QRS site and try and find something to put in a cart. You can't.

For that matter, try and find the price...anywhere. Could be $100,000 for all I know.

At least within the US, no one seems to want to sell it. They have it, and are eager to come install it themselves in your piano (probably) but I have yet to see anywhere you can get the part to DIY with.

The QRS guys follow the old-school model, where no one is allowed to show the prices and you can't get the item except from some authorized retailer, who installs it themselves and charges you for the whole job. I think they should sell this thing on amazon.

Additionally I wanted to buy an actual grand action to do what you are basically describing (I'll pass on the fatar) and build a killer midi controller but the guy I contacted said it would cost at least $5,000 for a grand piano action. I have no idea how accurate this is. Grand piano action sales are also very old school in their business model.

So I gave up on the project. For that kind of money and hassle, getting the AvantGrand makes more sense, even if it is just going to be a super-glorified midi controller.

Seems like someone's missing a business opportunity, even if the market isn't huge.

Side note: even if you could build a midi controller in this manner without passing bribes around or whatever you have to do, you would still have the problem that the velocities would come from key, rather than hammer movements. Unless my understanding is incorrect, this is not optimal. You'd do better using an MP10.