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#1540656 - 10/22/10 12:37 AM Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording?
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
I found problem of MIDI record on CN23 that not stable (some note disappear ,some wrong pitch ,some wrong duration ).I guess cause of Harmonic Imaging or could anyone explain what's going on and how to fix problem.

Thanks a lot
Chuang

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#1540694 - 10/22/10 02:08 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
If you record MIDI with your PC then this is most likely a problem of your MIDI or USB cable or interface or driver.
These symptoms are typical results of data loss and/or data corruption.
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1540706 - 10/22/10 02:39 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8823
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Chuang,

I recommend that you double-check all of your MIDI connections.
If you are using a MIDI-->USB connector, perhaps consider trying an alternative device. Some cheaper/lower quality adaptors can often suffer from the occasional glitch that may result in MIDI errors.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1540709 - 10/22/10 02:43 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Can you describe your set up? What cables. midi interface and software are you using. What computer andwhich OS? How frequently does this happen, every third notes of note every few weeks?

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#1540718 - 10/22/10 03:09 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
Thanks hpeterh,Kawai James and ChrisA

I forgot to tell that I use same setting with other Keyboard(not digital piano) working properly.I can record correctly with cheaper and lower spec than CN23.
(That's why I guess PHI or Hammer action may cause this problem)

I record by Cubase5 on Windows Vista ,USB MIDI.

I play cromatic lowest to highest key, it will disappear on 2-3 middle octaves.
Anyway I'll find another MIDI interface to try on CN to see result.

Thanks all
Chuang

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#1540741 - 10/22/10 04:06 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Have you set the CN23 to local off?
Is MIDI echo or MIDI throug disabled in Cubase?

If not at least one of this conditions is true this might form a MIDI feedback loop and could indeeed cause an internal overload of the Piano.

I recommend to download LoopBE1 virtual MIDI cable and MIDI OX.
This enables you to watch and possibly route, analyze, modify and interrupt the realtime nonfiltered data stream and gives you full diagnosis and control possibilities.

The software mentioned is free and easy to find in google.

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1540753 - 10/22/10 04:44 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
Thanks a lot Peter

LoopBE1 looks pretty useful. Hope it can fix this problem.


Regards,
Chuang

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#1540757 - 10/22/10 05:16 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
LoopBE1 has an automatic feature to interrupt feedback loops automatically. However this doesnt solve the problems, it only prevents Computer lockup.

May I give you a proposal for the setup?

1) Install MIDIOX.
2) Install LoopBE1

In MIDI OX setup your physical MIDI Port Input and Output.
Also setup LoopBE1 Input and Output in MIDIOX
Click the Symbol Route 66. There you can route or interrupt the data streams. Disable unneeded streams.

Connect Cubase to LoopBE1.

So the data flow is this:

MIDI Port <-> MIDIOX <-> LoopBE1 <-> Cubase

I made this setup some days ago (I dont use Cubase, but Reaper and Kontakt Player) and use it to adapt my Sustain pedal to Vintage D. Works very well and has infinite possibilities and costs nothing.

LoopBE1 brings the additional advantage, it is Multiclient capable, while the native USB MIDI Port in Windows is not.

Best,

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1542791 - 10/25/10 01:19 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
Hi,Peter

After I set up as your suggestion.
I found MIDI data shown on MIDIOX not stable when I press some single note on CN ,not like other keyboard.
I try to disable unuse device on MIDIOX but nothing change and LoopBE1 out to Cubase don't change any source data.

Last week I go to dealer and check another CN in store and every CN have same result. They'll try another program and MIDI cable then report to me later.

Thanks again
Chuang

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#1542802 - 10/25/10 01:54 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
If you press the right mouse button over a monitor window, then choose "Copy All". then you get the windows output into the clipboard.

Then you can post the MIDI here.
So far I understand the CN23 has unstable MIDI, but another keyboard has not.
The question is: Has the CN23 USB-MIDI and do you use this, or has it the conventional MIDI?
If you use USB MIDI, do you use Kawais MIDI driver?
Do you use Windows XP or Vista or 7?

Yes of course if you can try another CN23 or MIDI Interface then this will be the quickest Method to find the problem.

Best,

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1542877 - 10/25/10 05:27 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: hpeterh]
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
Peter,actually It's CN-22 (my misunderstand) made in Indonesia.
There's no USB port in this model .But my purpose is to find someone that ever have same experience as me and can explain what's happen.
The dealer guy that test with me use another model that have high quality key action have same problem but CASIO Previa (which item I can't remember) he told me this item have one layer key action and work properly.

Regards,
Chuang

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#1542901 - 10/25/10 06:38 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Sorry I am loosing understanding.
There are one layer, two layer .... 5 layer samples but that has nothing to do with MIDI.
Midi sends accurately timed digital NoteOn NoteOff switch events and doesnt deal in anyway with layers.
The action nothing to do with MIDI. The amount of layers has nothing to do with MIDI nor has it to do with the action in a technical way.
I dont understand what a one layer action is, sorry. Maybe there is a lot of misunderstanding.

Unfortunately a lot of dealers might be good musicians but are technically less competent but are pretending knowledge and competency and confuse the understanding further instead of clarifying it.
Incompetency + pretended authority = hopeless confusion ;-)
All that these can do with defective DP's is giving wrong explanations and send the device to the service center ;-)
I dont of course know the dealer where you have got this.

Maybe you better post a sound example and/or MIDI listing or MIDI file to avoid confusion.

Best,

Peter

BTW, if the CN22 has no USB MIDI then its easy to exclude a MIDI feedback loop: Pull out the MIDI In plug. MIDIOX and LoopBE1 are not needed. (But still are helpful to monitor the messages)
If the problem persists, then lets do the next test...
If you want a precise solution then you must give a precise problem and device and setup description.


Edited by hpeterh (10/25/10 07:49 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1543650 - 10/26/10 03:31 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
Hi,Peter

Thanks you so much for explaination ,I'll set up and copy MIDI data list on MIDIOX here in a few days. Connect only MIDI out from Piano to my computer is the first thing I do when I face the problem .Bad news is nothing change.

The interesting is all CN series they have in stock result the same problem but CASIO is not.

Regards,
Chuang

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#1543721 - 10/26/10 07:02 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Chuang717
Hi,Peter

Thanks you so much for explaination ,I'll set up and copy MIDI data list on MIDIOX here in a few days. Connect only MIDI out from Piano to my computer is the first thing I do when I face the problem .Bad news is nothing change.


Then a MIDI feedback problem can be excluded.
Quote:

The interesting is all CN series they have in stock result the same problem but CASIO is not.


That looks like a firmware problem or hardware incompatibility.
Could you try more than one MIDI interface? Maybe another interface works.
In that case a reasonable qualified technician or another experienced person with technical basic knowledge should look into the problem.
Unfortunately - I dont think the solution is easy.
I dont know if solution is possible.

Best,

Peter

P.S.
Think positive.
Maybe change the topic and ask if another person has success, and if you find such a person, ask which equipment is used....
Helps possibly more than to find people that also have the same problem ;-)



Edited by hpeterh (10/26/10 07:26 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1543739 - 10/26/10 07:37 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8823
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Chuang717, I used a Yamaha UX16 to connect a CN22 to my netbook (running Pianoteq) a few months ago - I did not experience any problems.

The CN21/22/23 are popular products that sell very well across the world - if there were any problem with the MIDI implementation on these instruments I expect I would know about it.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1543742 - 10/26/10 07:42 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Kawai James]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Thanks James, such a report was needed here ;-)

It is, for example possible that the CN22 sends larger SYSEX sequences. There are a lot cheaper MIDI interfaces with buggy drivers that handle larger sysexes incorrectly.

Chuang, if possible do a MIDI listing. This could be visible in the listing.



Best,

Peter

P.S:

Another possible explanation would be the MIDI keepalive message. (I dont kow the proper name of the message, but can look it up at evening) All Kawai devices that I know sent this periodically, but many other devices do not. If the driver or the host software does not deal correctly with this, it would cause problems. Unfortunately that is not visible in a MIDIOX listing, it is filtered out per default.

Edit: The proper name is "Active Sense". I looked into CN22 Manual's MIDI implementation list: It sends and receives it.

BTW, I have a Kawai CP136 and this sends it too. I use a Roland/Edirol USB MIDI interface. This works without problem.

Most probably there are 100 other possible reasons for this...

But I believe your MIDI interface is the problem, because Vista & Cubase have no known problems with Kawai pianos.

You will however need all updates for Vista. The first versions had MIDI problems so far I know.

Edit: I had another look into the manual. It is possible to disable SYSEX messages. So this is easy to exclude.

It is - as usual - not possible to disable the Active Sense message.

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (10/26/10 11:51 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1545084 - 10/27/10 11:56 PM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Chuang717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 7
Here is MIDI data shown in MIDIOX :2 lowest octave cromatics played
(Do I can post picture here,I printscreen too)


TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
Closed MIDI Input
Opened MIDI Input
0000C071 2 -- 90 15 5D 1 A 0 Note On
0000C1AC 2 -- 90 15 00 1 A 0 Note Off
0000C602 2 -- 90 16 64 1 Bb 0 Note On
0000CC3C 2 -- 90 17 5D 1 B 0 Note On
0000CD47 2 -- 90 17 00 1 B 0 Note Off
0000D0B3 2 -- 90 18 62 1 C 1 Note On
0000D1EE 2 -- 90 18 00 1 C 1 Note Off
0000D451 2 -- 90 19 63 1 C# 1 Note On
0000D75F 2 -- 90 10 5F 1 E 0 Note On
0000DA20 2 -- 90 1B 62 1 Eb 1 Note On
0000DCB1 2 -- 90 1C 66 1 E 1 Note On
0000DF62 2 -- 90 1D 6A 1 F 1 Note On
0000E1F4 2 -- 90 1E 68 1 F# 1 Note On
0000E457 2 -- 90 1F 40 1 G 1 Note On
0000E7A4 2 -- 90 20 00 1 G# 1 Note Off
0000E94C 2 -- 90 21 6A 1 A 1 Note On
0000EA09 2 -- 90 21 00 1 A 1 Note Off
0000EBA1 2 -- 90 22 6A 1 Bb 1 Note On
0000EC5F 2 -- 90 22 00 1 Bb 1 Note Off
0000EDE8 2 -- 90 23 46 1 B 1 Note On
0000EEA5 2 -- 90 23 00 1 B 1 Note Off

Many notes do not have NOTE OFF data
Many notes wrong pitch

Anyway I'll find another MIDI cable to test cause there's someone doesn't have problem with CN22 MIDI out .I'll post result soon.

Thanks you Peter and James

Regards,
Chuang

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#1545141 - 10/28/10 01:57 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Hello Chuang,

I strongly believe its a problem with the MIDI interface or -driver.
Probably the driver handles the "Active Sense" event incorrectly.
This leads to data loss or -corruption.
This Event is sent frequently, always when the MIDI line is idle for some 100ms. (I dont exactly know the timeout)
It is part of the MIDI standard but rarely used. Unfortunately all Kawai pianos use it. It has the purpose to mute the sound, when the MIDI line is interrupted.

If this MIDI interface has a driver available, check if there are updates.


Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1810239 - 12/21/11 08:39 PM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
lakkaland Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Switzerland
I have cn23 and the same missing notes problem.

simple set up: usb-midi cable, macbook pro, garageband.

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#1810241 - 12/21/11 08:40 PM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
lakkaland Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Switzerland
this is quite annoying coz i bought this piano for recording...now totally stuck...

too bad it doesn't have line-out...


Edited by lakkaland (12/21/11 08:41 PM)

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#1810327 - 12/21/11 11:55 PM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Chuang717]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8823
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
lakkaland, may I ask which manufacturer/model USB-to-MIDI adaptor you are using?

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1816892 - 01/02/12 06:26 AM Re: Do anyone have problem on KAWAI CN23 MIDI recording? [Re: Kawai James]
lakkaland Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Switzerland

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