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#1817222 - 01/02/12 05:21 PM Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue...
toejamfutbol Full Member Registered: 08/04/09 Posts: 102 Loc: MI	In September I took on a transfer student from the owner of the studio I work at who recently retired. The student had been taking lessons for at least a couple of years before she started with me. The trouble is that this kid knows absolutely nothing and can play absolutely nothing. The only thing she plays is dumb. I'm basically going to have to start from scratch with her. She's very shy and afraid to give a wrong answer so it's going to take a long time for her to warm up to me too. I know she really liked her previous teacher and is having trouble with the change. The other problem is that I know she hardly ever practices, and even more annoying is that she doesn't show up half the time. Literally. Her parents pay for her lessons faithfully and on time but something always comes up and they have missed literally half of their lessons since September and don't seem to care. This makes it even harder to get anything done with the student. I know I need to talk to her mom about this but I've never had to approach a parent in this way before so I want to make sure I don't push any buttons and am as tactful as possible. I hate creating tension and animosity with the parents but I basically have to tell her that the past two years of lessons they have paid for have been a complete waste of time and money, and that they need to stop making excuses for not practicing or showing up to lessons. How do you be tactful about that? The other reason I'm nervous is because it's going to make her previous teacher look bad, who happens to be a good friend of mine. All of the transfer students I've had from her have had foundational gaps in their knowledge and playing abilities and I have always had to backtrack with them. Thankfully she has already retired but she is my friend so I don't want to mar her reputation as a teacher or as a person. This is the part of my job that I hate! _________________________ "Why should we be in such desperate haste to succeed, and in such desperate enterprises? If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured and far away." -Thoreau
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#1817257 - 01/02/12 05:58 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
AZNpiano 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/07/07 Posts: 3586 Loc: Orange County, CA	I would just enjoy the student and the timely payments. Make the lesson time as enjoyable as possible for her. Students like this won't progress very far, and may never get out of Book 1 of any method book. But as long as she is having a good time, that should be fine. If you think that'd compromise your integrity as a teacher, then you should let the student go. Originally Posted By: toejamfutbol The other reason I'm nervous is because it's going to make her previous teacher look bad, who happens to be a good friend of mine. All of the transfer students I've had from her have had foundational gaps in their knowledge and playing abilities and I have always had to backtrack with them. Thankfully she has already retired but she is my friend so I don't want to mar her reputation as a teacher or as a person. This is indeed tricky. I'm also surrounded by teachers like this. I think my neighbors are actually worse, because they allow their students to take music tests when the kids are clearly 5 levels below where they need to be. What else can you do other than starting over? Maybe switch them to a completely different method book series, or use one of those anthologies that don't have level numbers on them? Don't use The Joy of First-Year Piano because they'll think they're back in year one. For this reason, I really enjoy using Essential Keyboard Repertoire by Lynn Olson. Olson's editing and musical taste is great, and he did not label any of his books with level numbers. All the "leveled" anthologies are both a blessing and a curse. They are great for students who progress normally or even slightly below normal, and there's enough flexibility within each level in terms of repertoire difficulty that you can get away with teaching the easiest pieces in each book and still move on to the next book. But for students who are truly deficient in every way, the leveled anthologies will only expose their weaknesses. _________________________ Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
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#1817336 - 01/02/12 07:27 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
Gary D. 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/30/08 Posts: 3468 Loc: South Florida	You are really in an impossible situation. You need to tell the parents that the student learning nothing from the other teacher, but you can't, because of your friendship with the retired teacher... However, you can say two things: 1) When students do no practice, it turns us into "personal piano trainers". Not only does this make progress impossible, it makes us look incompetent if other people think such students are a reflection of our teaching. 2)Students who miss a lot of lessons, even when those lessons are paid for, also make it impossible to teach. I lay it on the line: If I can't teach a student properly, I won't continue with that student. No shows in combination with no practice make me look like I'm a poor teacher, and I can't afford that kind of "advertisement", since I depend on a combination of good will and a reputation for teaching well to get new students. _________________________ Piano Teacher
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#1817677 - 01/03/12 08:15 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
TimR 1000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/17/04 Posts: 1810 Loc: Virginia, USA	My guess is her mom knows, and is happy with the results they are getting. A shy child is unlikely to play in public and hurt your reputation as a teacher. She might be absorbing more than you think, and though she never becomes a performer, may remember the experience fondly as an adult. And send HER children to piano lessons! I think if you need to talk to the mother, you might just tactfully say if they want the child to progress faster, there will have to be more home practice. That way you've been honest about the limitations, and can check the parent's expectations. _________________________ gotta go practice
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#1817760 - 01/03/12 11:31 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
bmbutler Full Member Registered: 12/15/10 Posts: 181 Loc: North Carolina	I would have the talk with the parents. As another poster seems to suggest, how can you continue to take money when the child is not progressing or getting anything out of it? I am not saying the fault lies with you, but there are plenty of teachers out there that will continue to take piano lesson money and not care if the student progresses or not. Sorry, but that is something I cannot ethically or morally do to another person. My students are a reflection of me as a piano teacher. I want parents to see regular progress. If it is not happening and the parents don't intervene, I let the student go from my studio. _________________________ Bachelor of Music (church music) Master of Church Music (organ, music education) Piano Teacher since 1992 Church Musician since 1983
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#1817788 - 01/03/12 12:33 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: bmbutler]
TimR 1000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/17/04 Posts: 1810 Loc: Virginia, USA	Originally Posted By: bmbutler I want parents to see regular progress. If it is not happening and the parents don't intervene, I let the student go from my studio. You are deciding for the parents what their goals and expectations must be. You would probably be greatly surprised to find out what parents really send their kids to piano lessons for. Things like enrichment, fun, general musical education, etc. Many of these don't demand a high degree of technical skill be developed. Of course, you aren't required to provide those services. You can teach whatever you want. But it would save a lot of misunderstanding if you were very clear with the parents at the beginning that you did not intend to do that. Then they could decide as the paying customer whether to continue with you or go elsewhere. Perhaps without the moralistic dimension that can so easily creep in. _________________________ gotta go practice
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#1817812 - 01/03/12 01:21 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: TimR]
AZNpiano 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/07/07 Posts: 3586 Loc: Orange County, CA	Originally Posted By: TimR You would probably be greatly surprised to find out what parents really send their kids to piano lessons for. Things like enrichment, fun, general musical education, etc. Many of these don't demand a high degree of technical skill be developed. I figured that out the first year I taught piano after college. Back then, I greatly compromised my standards in order to support myself financially. Even today, I'll gladly accept students whose parents just want enrichment for their children. I probably won't let these kids play in my studio recitals, but that's another story completely. _________________________ Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
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#1817891 - 01/03/12 03:31 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: AZNpiano]
trhmusic Full Member Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 41 Loc: Texas	I feel for you! I know talking to parents about what their child needs to change can be very uncomfortable. I have a student who frequently skips lessons as well (usually just because the mom got sidetracked and completely forgot). I think others have given you really good advice on how to do this but I had a few thoughts. I agree it would be a good idea to talk to the parent and see what their goals and expectations are; also asking the child what they want to get out of lessons may help too. Do you have to allude to the fact that the past few years were useless? Maybe you can focus more on how you think things need to change to move forward and progress to the next level. Is there anything you see that the child does really well? Focusing on the child's strengths while telling them how to work on the weaknesses can be a lot easier for the child's parent to hear. Maybe ask the parent if there is anything they see that they need help with? The parent just may not know how to help their child practice. Also, parents get progress reports from their child's school on a regular basis. And parent/teacher conferences are also used to help parents understand what their child can do better/different to progress. I see this as something I have failed to provide in the past and am starting to implement this with my own students. This may be a helpful way to approach it since it can be used for your whole studio and not just one student, so the parent may be less inclined to feel singled out and attacked. But parents can get very defensive no matter how we say things, so this may not help at all. I would love to hear how things turn out! _________________________ Tracy Hall Piano Teacher http://www.trhmusic.org "Bringing the joy of music to the next generation"
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#1818021 - 01/03/12 07:11 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: TimR]
Gary D. 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/30/08 Posts: 3468 Loc: South Florida	Originally Posted By: TimR You would probably be greatly surprised to find out what parents really send their kids to piano lessons for. Things like enrichment, fun, general musical education, etc. Many of these don't demand a high degree of technical skill be developed. I would simply say that the better a student can play, the more fun it is. Or the more fun it SHOULD be. I have said this before: I did not have to sacrifice anything for the piano, and it never occurred to me that playing is anything else but fun. If I said that all my students feel that way, it would be a lie, but I think most of them do. For my students the number one thing seems to be how quickly they get good enough to play the things they are interested in without having to to play them a "million" times to get them good enough so that they sound good. But if a student doesn't come to lessons, doesn't play at home, I don't have a CHANCE to help develop the skills that eventually MAKE it fun. _________________________ Piano Teacher
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#1818033 - 01/03/12 07:29 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: trhmusic]
Gary D. 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/30/08 Posts: 3468 Loc: South Florida	Originally Posted By: trhmusic Do you have to allude to the fact that the past few years were useless? Maybe you can focus more on how you think things need to change to move forward and progress to the next level. My approach is to try to grab SOMETHING that was learned before, and build on it. Trashing a former teacher does no one any good, although I might let off steam in a PM, here, to another teacher!. The biggest problem I see is that students, even young ones, are often very confused when we begin filling in enormous holes. When I get young kids who have been taught to play only in hand positions, who only know how to find notes by using a finger number, who think that true reading is impossible for them, they go through a period of confusion while I am liberating them from those artificial constraints. A concrete example: I have a boy in 3rd grade who is so young that he could easily have been held back, for 2nd grade, but the kid is SO smart. He has read all seven of the Potter books, the Percy Jackson books, other things. But when he came to me, he was stuck in hand positions, did not know the names of the keys, memorized everything because that was all he knew. I didn't tell him he was "crippled" by his first teacher (what would be the use?), but I did set to work immediately to remedy those holes. He's already reading well, and in the next year I expect him to explode in ability. But if he had been with that first teacher a couple more years, I don't think I could have turned things around... _________________________ Piano Teacher
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#1818091 - 01/03/12 09:54 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
trublues Full Member Registered: 03/05/10 Posts: 73 Loc: New Hampshire	Years ago a very good teacher told me it took her a full year to get to know a transfer student. My own experience has now proven this true time and time again. In initial interviews I tell parents this and talk about how so much of teaching depends on a good relationship between student and teacher. In your situation, the student isn't coming regularly enough to lessons for you to get to know her very well at all. I'm sure this ties in with her not practicing, too. Hard to be motivated when lessons aren't regular. And she liked her other teacher. I'm glad you're going to talk with her mom. As other posters have said, don't speak poorly of the previous teacher or any other teachers. But do talk about regular lessons and practice times. You didn't mention how old this student is - but a few years of bad lessons can be overcome. Easier if she's younger but it's never too late. _________________________ Independent Piano Teacher Member MTNA, NHMTA
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#1818119 - 01/03/12 11:13 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
Morodiene 7000 Post Club Member Registered: 04/06/07 Posts: 7496 Loc: Boynton Beach, FL	Originally Posted By: toejamfutbol In September I took on a transfer student from the owner of the studio I work at who recently retired. The student had been taking lessons for at least a couple of years before she started with me. The trouble is that this kid knows absolutely nothing and can play absolutely nothing. The only thing she plays is dumb. I'm basically going to have to start from scratch with her. She's very shy and afraid to give a wrong answer so it's going to take a long time for her to warm up to me too. I know she really liked her previous teacher and is having trouble with the change. The other problem is that I know she hardly ever practices, and even more annoying is that she doesn't show up half the time. Literally. Her parents pay for her lessons faithfully and on time but something always comes up and they have missed literally half of their lessons since September and don't seem to care. This makes it even harder to get anything done with the student. I know I need to talk to her mom about this but I've never had to approach a parent in this way before so I want to make sure I don't push any buttons and am as tactful as possible. I hate creating tension and animosity with the parents but I basically have to tell her that the past two years of lessons they have paid for have been a complete waste of time and money, and that they need to stop making excuses for not practicing or showing up to lessons. How do you be tactful about that? The other reason I'm nervous is because it's going to make her previous teacher look bad, who happens to be a good friend of mine. All of the transfer students I've had from her have had foundational gaps in their knowledge and playing abilities and I have always had to backtrack with them. Thankfully she has already retired but she is my friend so I don't want to mar her reputation as a teacher or as a person. This is the part of my job that I hate! I have not read all the responses yet, but is it possible that the previous teacher did the best she could given that the parents don't show up nor the student practices? If a student doesn't show up to half of her lessons and never practices, is that the fault of the teacher? I don't think you need to say anything negative about the previous teacher. In fact, I think you can use that for your case and point. Since they miss half the lessons and never help her to practice, their money goes down the drain and the girl has learned NOTHING. You do not feel comfortable taking money from someone and not being able to teach the child as you are paid to do. Therefore, you want to institute a change. The parents have to 1) promise to attend all lessons unless and ABSOLUTE emergency that cannot be avoided or sudden illness of the child (or whatever your policy is on illnesses) and 2) that they will enforce a practice time of X number of days per week, not including lesson day (you can also suggest a length of time the child must practice, which helps some people). You need to get them to realize that the child's musical education is a 3-way street, and they need to pull their weight. All of this can be done very tactfully, and you need not even criticize your colleague, nor offend the parents. Some parents need to be educated in how to be a partner in their child's piano education. _________________________ private piano/voice teacher - full time WMTA member www.musicperception.com
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#1818181 - 01/04/12 01:49 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: trublues]
Gary D. 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/30/08 Posts: 3468 Loc: South Florida	Originally Posted By: trublues In your situation, the student isn't coming regularly enough to lessons for you to get to know her very well at all. I'm sure this ties in with her not practicing, too. Hard to be motivated when lessons aren't regular. And she liked her other teacher. Good points. I know for a fact that I have never been able to "connect" with some students who eventually just drop out, but it does not mean that I did anything wrong, or the students did anything wrong. Sometimes the timing is not right. At the moment I am teaching a teen with "special needs" with a huge amount of family support. It turns out that I have taught all the "kids" in this family at one time or another, and two of them are nearly 21 now. One of the older ones I never seemed to connect to. It was not that I did not like him, because I did. But lessons with him just did not work. Fast forward: this same former student now comes to his sister's lessons, to help, and he is an absolute miracle to work with. His ability to work with his sister and his general attitude is just plain wonderful. Now, if I knew all the things I know today when I was teaching him earlier, if I had had a few more "tricks up my sleve" to help make things come together, he might never have left. Who knows. But I do like to keep things open. We just never know when a seemingly problem or unresponsive student will suddenly hit some kind of fork in the road and turn into a great student. _________________________ Piano Teacher
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#1818194 - 01/04/12 03:03 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: trublues]
AZNpiano 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/07/07 Posts: 3586 Loc: Orange County, CA	Originally Posted By: trublues Years ago a very good teacher told me it took her a full year to get to know a transfer student. Maybe not a full year, but it definitely takes some time. I've written before that some problems of transfer students do not manifest themselves until months into the lessons. But by then, the "teacher hoppers" will have hopped away and the "piano for fun" kids will have quit lessons. _________________________ Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
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#1818290 - 01/04/12 09:42 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
keystring 7000 Post Club Member Registered: 12/11/07 Posts: 7437 Loc: Canada	Here is the problem if you have not been taught properly, such as not getting foundations. You don't know it. Whatever you have learned to do and how you experience practicing is how you think things are. Working on pieces has probably become a struggle and a stab in the dark. Or you were given crutches like finger numbers and choreography so that you think you are playing effortlessly but could not do anything independently. The light in the tunnel is that the difficulties are not due to the student having some dreadful weakness that makes him a failure, but it's something he wasn't taught. Therefore he can have a much different experience. The problem is that the new teacher knows that, and the student doesn't. I have often thought that a poor first teacher can create teacher hoppers because the student will sense there is a problem but won't know enough to recognize the solution.
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#1818294 - 01/04/12 09:52 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: TimR]
bmbutler Full Member Registered: 12/15/10 Posts: 181 Loc: North Carolina	Okay, here we go, again. Sorry if you find my opinion to be "moralistic." It is my opinion and I am free to state it. Just as you are free to disagree with me. Just "love" it though when someone starts name calling or degrading someone when they disagree. Just disagree and be done with it. If more people were "moralistic," our society would be much better off. And no, I am not deciding for the parents what the goals should be. If a student won't do the work and the parents won't assist me in helping to see that it is done, I don't want to continue teaching the child. Originally Posted By: TimR Originally Posted By: bmbutler I want parents to see regular progress. If it is not happening and the parents don't intervene, I let the student go from my studio. You are deciding for the parents what their goals and expectations must be. You would probably be greatly surprised to find out what parents really send their kids to piano lessons for. Things like enrichment, fun, general musical education, etc. Many of these don't demand a high degree of technical skill be developed. Of course, you aren't required to provide those services. You can teach whatever you want. But it would save a lot of misunderstanding if you were very clear with the parents at the beginning that you did not intend to do that. Then they could decide as the paying customer whether to continue with you or go elsewhere. Perhaps without the moralistic dimension that can so easily creep in. _________________________ Bachelor of Music (church music) Master of Church Music (organ, music education) Piano Teacher since 1992 Church Musician since 1983
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#1818321 - 01/04/12 10:41 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
keystring 7000 Post Club Member Registered: 12/11/07 Posts: 7437 Loc: Canada	I'll have a different take on it, re: "deciding what the parents should want." How about the student ? What if you have a scenario where the teacher is not giving the student the tools to play music on the instrument, but the parent is fine with it because he just wants the child to have fun / enrichment etc. (and maybe doesn't know what is possible). 20 years down the line, will the student be happy about what happened? It's the student who does the doing. -------- Addendum: When I was 16, I had 6 months of piano lessons with a teacher who spent a lot of my lesson time in the kitchen cooking supper. Lessons stopped when she had a baby. My parents were fine with the lessons. Fast forward 30 years, and hearing my child's teacher explaining key signatures. I never knew they were that easy. I had been limited in what I could play for decades. I felt betrayed and furious. Although there were only 6 months of lessons, this teacher had moved me to a grade 3 book once she saw what I played on my own, so key signatures were in there. No note names, no key signatures, no how to sit or anything - nothing. It is the STUDENT who takes lessons and who carries with him or her what was (not) taught into adult life. Not the parent. Edited by keystring (01/04/12 11:58 AM)
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#1818406 - 01/04/12 01:15 PM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: bmbutler]
TimR 1000 Post Club Member Registered: 08/17/04 Posts: 1810 Loc: Virginia, USA	Originally Posted By: bmbutler And no, I am not deciding for the parents what the goals should be. If a student won't do the work and the parents won't assist me in helping to see that it is done, I don't want to continue teaching the child. As in the current manners thread, I think you have perceived offense where none was given. If the child's progress meets the parents' expectations, but does not meet your expectations, and they stubbornly refuse to change, then you will dump the child? That's certainly your right, but as a parent I might not appreciate it. _________________________ gotta go practice
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#1820671 - 01/08/12 04:40 AM Re: Trying to address a parent about a delicate issue... [Re: toejamfutbol]
Peter K. Mose Full Member Registered: 01/06/12 Posts: 370 Loc: Toronto, Ontario	"The trouble is that this kid knows absolutely nothing and can play absolutely nothing. The only thing she plays is dumb." 1. It sounds to me as if you basically dislike this girl. Maybe you are the wrong person for her. Clearly you have not won her over. 2. The frequent skipping of lessons needs to be addressed immediately. You can tell Susie you enjoy seeing her each week, and miss her when she misses a lesson -- if that is truthful. You can say the same to her parents, if that is truthful. Or you could make it clear to the parents that education at the piano requires weekly lessons, and weekly lessons require commitment to weekly lessons. My guess is the parents are flakes, and don't value music study, but that she's a good kid who can learn just fine. 3. There is absolutely no need to speak ill of a prior teacher in this situation. Peter Edited by Peter K. Mose (01/08/12 04:43 AM)
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