...for young talented pianists who are serious and sensitive about their performances.

This is somewhat related to this thread, but I thought it would be better to post here to have a broader discussion.

DISCLAIMER: Adults (professional or amateur), amateurs (adult or young) are all excluded. All of the following is presented under "IMHO" category.

1. Play mindfully

2. Play in a controlled manner

3. Play accurately

4. Couldn't fulfill 1-3 ? Perform/post recordings at your own risk.

regards,

I wonder how many recordings get posted by professionals who have not reached adulthood.

How about works in progress?? Should they be posted, and then subject to the same criticism?

I know your style is to be frank and honest, but some of your comments can be IMO really stinging and insensitive. Such as when you described somebody's voicing as being "slapped in the face". That's crude and uncalled for really.

I think it's very hard to make general rules to follow and it's better to treat each case separately and with reasonable sensitivity.

Just in terms of your proposed list:
1. How young is "young" and how talented is "talented"?
2. Why are adults or amateurs excluded?

The age of the poster is not always known even if a reader bothers to look at their profile.

I do agree that it's reasonable to be more critical of those one expects more of because of their talent/skill level, but this should still be done in as positive a way as possible. One person's idea of honest constructive criticism could be perceived by someone else as unduly harsh.

I have read plenty of "reviews" where I thought the reviewer was unduly kind or unduly harsh. I have read reviews where I thought the reviewer didn't seem to take the posters ability into account at all. And I have listened to performances where the pianist seemed to think their ability was far greater than it was.

Once in a while I have sent the person posting a performance a PM because I thought my (negative) comments should at least be kept private. It's kind of like a master class vs. a private lesson. Saying something highly negative at a master class or on the internet can be much more unpleasant for the person being criticized than if the the comments were in a private lesson or a PM.

The phrasing of the comment is also important. It's possbile to same the same thing but in a way that is less negative/critical than some would phrase it. OTOH I don't like reviews that begin with something like "you're tremedously talented, play ten times better me, I know this is just my opinion, etc.etc....but there's one tenny suggestion I'd like to throw out just for your consideration even though I might be completely wrong about this, etc."

Well the best advice I can give young talented pianists about reading advice from internet forums is to not take any advice from internet forums. That's what teachers are for.

+1!!!!! Finally, somebody sensible! If one wants to take suggestions from internet forums (you sometimes get good ones), they MUST discuss them with their teacher.

Often, its the people who have the most negative comments who do not post any recordings at all (or very few) of their own playing. I wonder why that is.

some people get off on proclaiming their universal truths from the mountain top at others' expense - anonymously.

Strictly speaking, showing anything to the world is open to criticism (Sorry, but I don't call it constructive criticism), and public criticism, that is. That being said, it's in the critic's best understanding to know when to act harshly, kindly, etc. (a lot of people forget this is the internet and not some place where people tell them how lovely they are).
Also, not sure what liszt85's implication was above - but as to critics not posting their own work . . . that doesn't mean they can't be critics. They could be idiots trolling or skilled musicians who just don't publish their works - it's up to the person getting criticism to weed out the trolls (again, I apologize if this is what you meant, but I wasn't sure whether you were condoning critics or not).

I think some pianists are looking for second or third opinions. Otherwise, why do so many post performances and specifically ask for others' opinions?

I think that for any level pianist their teacher, if they have one, should be the main source of advice. And no internet advice should be taken as gospel.

Anyone who seeks or uses criticism from an unqualified anonymous poster on a piano forum deserves the abuse, most likely off target suggestions and bogus advice that they receive. It's internet S&M! When Beethoven played for Mozart all the parties were identified and qualified.

As a generalization, this is a pretty good one.

On the other hand, my son got some decent advice here once in a while.



Yep, that's a very good description of forums (or youtube) where people don't get to know each other, or of individuals who think a lot of themselves.

Not everyone here fits that description.

I don't particularly care how good you think you are, but there is no reason to be cruel. I've studied with some very famous pianists, some cruel and some extraordinarily kind.

Without fail, the teachers that phrased things in condescending manner got worse results out of their students. If you get your rocks off on making people feel bad about themselves, that's your right - but it's also the trait of a disturbed person.

I took lessons with someone I consider an abusive teacher - not to me, but a particular girl in our studio. He would make comments similar to those you made in the other thread (and worse) and it destroyed her mentally and emotionally to the point where she had so much tension she could not play in studio class. I used to rationalize such cruelty as them being "tortured geniuses" or some such nonsense, but eventually I came to the realization that we are all human beings and there is no excuse for treating people as less than such.

There is a difference between being honest and cruel. A person misses notes and doesn't phrase well? Say something like, "I admire your enthusiasm in tackling this piece! If I could offer a friendly suggestion, it would be to pay more attention to the dynamics in measure 12, as well as your accuracy." Don't say, "your phrasing is like being slapped in the face."

I posted recordings here when I'd only played for a couple of years. They were sloppy as heck and they are embarrassing now. But people's comments and kindness encouraged me and made me participate more in the forum, where I learned a lot of things about piano. I wound up going to a very good conservatory largely because of that.

Wouldn't you hate to discourage someone to the point where that's not possible? Because that's exactly what your "honest" comments run the risk of doing.

Be honest, but be humane.

Great post. Also not to mention the fact that one's "honest" comment can very well be wrong, and so you end up having lied AND having discouraged somebody. Most of the people doling out advice here (esp in the recording subforum) really are just amateur pianists, not highly accomplished pedagogues or teachers. While I'm sure most people appreciate your time and your critique, you also need to allow for the possibility that you might be wrong after all. That in itself will make you be more humble and humane in how you post critical comments here.

I think all participation in forums where members are almost entirely anonymous can be described thusly. Even with a moderator, it's just one step above Usenet in terms of usefulness, conduct and accountability - IMO.

I disagree. This is a remarkably civil and well run community.

In your opinion! I was making a general observation about web-based discussion forums where anonymity predominates, but if you wish to be defensive and get specific - this one is *no exception* to my own opinion, in my opinion. It's in the eyes of the beholder, I guess, so hey - to each their own.

If someone posts their honest opinion than it cannot be a lie but it can be incorrect information. If someone posts their opinion, right ot wtong, in a non nasty, tactful way it will usually not be discouraging.

I don't think one has to be a highly accomplished musician to generally post meaningful and correct comments about a performance by someone whose level is equal to, less than, or only a lttle above, your own. Bruce regularly posts meaningful comments about other people's performances and there are plenty of other examples of other posters like him. It's kind of like in chess. One does not have to be a grandmaster to comments on the playing of a 1400 level player in a meaningful way.

It's a given that not all comments will be correct or helpful.

It is not. I disagree completely. In fact, I think only the most accomplished teachers should teach beginners. However, that is only in an ideal world in my head, that's not happening here in the real world. Can a 1400 player comment on another 1400 player's playing in extremely useful ways? That is basically what has been happening here. I'm surprised that you think its ok and that the caution that a couple of us advice isn't really crucial (you didn't say so, but the fact that you responded to me suggested that it was the case, but feel free to correct me if that isn't what you meant). Now if you weren't disagreeing with me about the caution that I advice, then you must surely agree that it would be nice for all of us doling out advice to realize that we might be wrong and so choose to be polite when offering advice. "Lying" is a strong term of course but it was intentional, to get across a point. Bruce's comments are generally well thought out but that's just my opinion, I wouldn't know how a highly accomplished teacher would view each one of his posts. So I would treat his advice with a certain amount of caution as well. If I find something sensible in his advice, I promise myself to talk to my teacher about it and only then do something about it. This is something I learned from experience. I'm not saying that people don't mean well here. They absolutely do, but they also don't realize how often they can be wrong.

I don't understand why adults should be exempt from this constructive criticism thing. You can phrase your critique in such a way as to be respectful to the player while giving your opinion. You know the rule of give out a compliment before a critique? It's universal.

"Bob, I think that you've worked so hard learning this very difficult piece in two weeks and I admire you for performing it so soon after it's been learned. You've also played it from memory as well, so my hat's off to you. However, because of the rushed timeframe there are some things that can be altered, which you probably would have noticed too had you the time to study this longer. For example, in bar 87 here, you played this rhythm, but it should be this rhythm."

And so on, so forth.

This forum is somewhat better than others for a couple of reasons. The average age here is a bit higher than on other forums so the overall attitude is a bit more mature. As we know there's nothing to prevent someone from saying harsh things. Saying harsh things is, after all, the best way to insure a response. It seems there are some here who thrive on stirring the pot, hence harsh criticism. Anyone with significant internet forum experience knows this and posts accordingly. Trouble starts when a newbie posts something expecting a PC pat on the back and gets lambasted instead. Welcome to the real world.

Those who indulge in harsh criticism don't seem to realise that their behavior reflects on them and no one else. If you thrive on instigating controversy what does that indicate about your personality? It doesn't indicate anything about anyone else's personality, only you (whoever *you* is). There will always be people who believe that attracting negative attention to themselves is a good thing, because like publicity, some attention is better than none.

Threads like this one may impact the overall tone of discussion for a short time, but in the long run human nature will prevail. It's just slightly more effective than a dog barking at waves. I realise that this thread was probably started by someone whose frustration reached a point where they had to express themselves just to get the matter off their chest (as opposed to an actual attempt to impact forum behavior). Still once this thread has run it course and sunk off the first page it'll only take a few days for behavior to revert to normal. Call me pessimistic.

I know from experience that although I am far from a grandmaster I can comment on the moves of a 1400 player in useful ways and usually correctly. I am strong emough compared to a 1400 player that my comments will usualy be appropriate and helpful. In fact, they could be better than a grandmaster unless the grandmaster was specifically trained and experienced in teaching students at the 1400 level.

In chess, and I think in piano, as long as one is some reasonable level above the person receiving the comments(say 200-300 points in chess), I think the advice is usually good. And in chess and piano, I think advice from an equal can also be helpful and this is one reason why players often analyze a game after it is concluded.

Finally I think once one has reached a certain level, advice to a player of higher level can stil be very useful. An IM's advice to a GM could sometimes be helpful although a GM wouldn't normally have an IM as their basic trainer. I think some of the criticism at PW of performances by famous pianists makes a lot of sense. I only object to these kind of comments when they are posted to sound like fact rather than opinions.

There is always the problem that the person giving the advice may know far less and play worse than they think they do, but that goes with the territory of asking for comments on the internet.

IMHO if a anon. poster deigns to judge a performance and is not qualified and IS anonymous [they almost always go together], the comments are bogus. This is just like Jay Leno's "Jaywalking" bit. [e.g., he asks a young mother 'who lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave? ' she doesn't know. 'who lives in a pineapple under the sea? ' 'Sponge Bob!!'] - that is the quality I usually note here by anon. experts. Anonymity encourages abuse because the poster can hide behind the curtain. This offers the opportunity to pontificate and be harsh and abusive, as we see here all the time. An exercise in the deadly sins of pride and envy! Unless one knows who the critic is, and that the critic knows his/her stuff this is not worth the bandwidth wasted. What's the saying? Opinions are just like @__ holes - everybody has one. Just sayin'.

I'd love to play chess with you sometime. Are you on chesscube? My username there is the same: liszt85. My rating there is around 1930 but I've only been playing 3-5 minute games to improve my speed (I'm very slow)! Let me know if you want to play.

Perhaps we should rather be looking at how Criticism can be be given appropriately, how it can be harsh, or direct, but at the same time not hurtful or discouraging to the recipient - and not looking at how the pianist should view his own playing. (he posts it to get other opinions, no?)

Good criticism is constructive criticism. Best structured as a sandwich
a) good bit
b) a suggestion
c) encouragement.

For example,

Ms Argerich, I very much liked the way you phrased bars X, Y and Z and the way you articulated passage A was very good. However, I think you could've used a bit more dynamic contrast in the middle section, and it seems you might need a bit more practice here and there at the beginning! Overall, it's a very good effort, keep it up!

as opposed to

Ms Argerich, I could only bare to listen to half of it. You were completely out of control and the dynamics were non-existent. I thought this was rushed and not very well prepared.


You can see how the the two ways of phrasing point out the same faults, but the former is without the risk of endangering the feelings of the recipient. You may think the pianist is absolutely terrible and should never play again, but it doesn't help anyone with being so direct like that.

Hakki, before you start questioning the motifs of the person asking for critique, I suggest that if you don't have anything at all positive or encouraging to say, then don't bother posting. If you think everything is wrong, at least give some suggestion or tips as to how he could practice it or what he could do differently so next time it's better.

Jolteon, I don't see those as equivalent at all. An equivalent to the harsh one might be:

Ms. Argerich, this is a start. I would suggest that the next things to work on are accuracy of notes/fingering, increasing the dynamic contrast, and taking it at a more relaxed/steady tempo: you're rushing it.

It is a lot less insulting for me, personally, when someone gives me specifics of how I could do better, and not generalities. A judge can start with generalities and then delve into the specifics and I'd still be happy.

Then again, I come at this from a teacher's perspective. If someone told me, "Your accuracy is bad!" I wouldn't be sure how to take that. Thank you? Or no thank you? What about my accuracy? What am I doing that's so bad? What section stood out as an example of the worst? How can I fix this? How do YOU know it's accuracy and not a bad day for me?

The overall tone has to be an encouraging and gentle one, though. I've had enough of harsh teachers in my life; no one needs to cry after master class or during lesson.

Surely in response to someone saying "your accuracy is bad," if that (or some other remark) seems vague, you can ask in response "can you be more specific?"

Accuracy in classical piano music can be harder to achieve than it might seem.

Think of Chopin etude op.10 no.1.
One might play it with 99% accuracy. But that is still one wrong note played every 10 seconds.

regards,