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#1818388 - 01/04/12 12:49 PM Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1
Hermanberntzen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 341
For those who have played Bach - Prelude in C WTC.1
For me it feels not so comfortable to play with the finger staging Bach noted. Instead of playing it the way he noted how the finger's should be placed i preefer to set the hands this way on the keyboard:
Instead of (Left: CE and Right: GCE) I preefer to play Left: CEG Right: CE
It feels more comfortable, my fingers get a wider range and when hitting the notes there are much more clearlity and it's more precisely.
Is there anyone who has played the piece that way ever?

Regards,
_________________________
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#1818560 - 01/04/12 05:37 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
dolce sfogato Offline
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Posts: 2594
Loc: Netherlands
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz
_________________________
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Chopin op.28/20/31/39/54

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#1818615 - 01/04/12 06:52 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: dolce sfogato]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz


Genau.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1818804 - 01/04/12 11:01 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
chrisbell Online   content
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1306
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Word.
_________________________
I never play anything the same way once.

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#1819364 - 01/05/12 09:54 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
Jolteon Offline
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Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 526
Loc: Perth, Australia
In proper execution and understanding of this prelude, I suggest you play it the traditional way, with the left hand on the CE, right hand on GCE. The first two notes have longer values, indicating they should be held for the entire length of the motif. The second part of the motif echoes the first part, the GCE is what is echoed, indicating this broken chord is a kind of micro-phrase, and CE is harmony. In order to properly shape this micro-phrase, you're probably going to need the sensitivity of just one hand.

I can play all the notes with only one hand, but it does not mean I should.
_________________________

Algernon: I hope, Cecily, I shall not offend you if I state quite frankly and openly that you seem to me to be in every way the visible personification of absolute perfection.

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#1819445 - 01/06/12 12:21 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: dolce sfogato]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz


The distribution of the notes between the staves implies a fingering. (IMHO)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1819507 - 01/06/12 04:16 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Kreisler]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz


The distribution of the notes between the staves implies a fingering. (IMHO)


If you view some of the very earliest copies you'll find all but the very bottom are given to the upper.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1819589 - 01/06/12 09:37 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: stores]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz


The distribution of the notes between the staves implies a fingering. (IMHO)


If you view some of the very earliest copies you'll find all but the very bottom are given to the upper.


Oh wow... Really? I'd love to see that!

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#1819611 - 01/06/12 10:45 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Interesting! I had no idea!
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1819655 - 01/06/12 12:06 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Orange Soda King]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3617
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz


The distribution of the notes between the staves implies a fingering. (IMHO)


If you view some of the very earliest copies you'll find all but the very bottom are given to the upper.


Oh wow... Really? I'd love to see that!


Behold the power of the internet! (And stores was right.)

_________________________
Schoenberg op.10+k, Beethoven op.100+k for k=9
Schubert D.899/4, Chopin op.25/2

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#1819663 - 01/06/12 12:23 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
That is so cool!!! Thanks for finding that!

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#1819674 - 01/06/12 12:40 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: beet31425]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3722
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: beet31425
[...] Behold the power of the internet! (And stores was right.) [...]


Of course! laugh

Thanks for finding that, Jason!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1819677 - 01/06/12 12:49 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
kuifje Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 110
I'm using this one to begin getting used to playing without left pedal. Just nice 'n easy, getting a feel for the keys.

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#1819682 - 01/06/12 12:58 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: beet31425]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Bach schrieb niemals einen Fingersatz


The distribution of the notes between the staves implies a fingering. (IMHO)


If you view some of the very earliest copies you'll find all but the very bottom are given to the upper.


Oh wow... Really? I'd love to see that!


Behold the power of the internet! (And stores was right.)



Yes, but on the other hand - so to speak - the second note, though written in the treble staff does have the stem pointing downward. Might - only might - this not imply the left hand?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1819688 - 01/06/12 01:18 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
But later on, when the second note falls into the bass clef, the stems are written up. So it looks to me like the stems are there either to separate voices, or to make the different note values easier to read, and don't necessarily have anything to do with hands.
_________________________
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#1819834 - 01/06/12 06:12 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
(And stores was right.)



Of course! =p
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1819844 - 01/06/12 06:36 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: stores]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
(And stores was right.)



Of course! =p


The only time he's been incorrect is when he said hockey and (American) football are better than basketball and association football (AKA soccer). wink

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#1819874 - 01/06/12 07:06 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Orange Soda King]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5913
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
(And stores was right.)



Of course! =p


The only time he's been incorrect is when he said hockey and (American) football are better than basketball and association football (AKA soccer). wink


I'm sure he has been incorrect a number of times but not about this score, hockey, or football.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1819969 - 01/06/12 10:09 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
DameMyra Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1902
Loc: South Jersey
I think the manuscript supports Jolteon's thesis.
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#1819977 - 01/06/12 10:26 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Fascinating manuscripts!
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Music is my best friend.


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#1820038 - 01/07/12 12:56 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
Jolteon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 526
Loc: Perth, Australia
What is the clef supposed to be in the right hand stave? Or was the treble clef changed at some point in history?
_________________________

Algernon: I hope, Cecily, I shall not offend you if I state quite frankly and openly that you seem to me to be in every way the visible personification of absolute perfection.

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#1820043 - 01/07/12 01:03 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Jolteon]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 926
Loc: California
Tenor clef.
edit - no it isn't. I don't know.
Soprano clef, I think.


Edited by Ferdinand (01/07/12 01:12 AM)

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#1820216 - 01/07/12 10:29 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5913
Loc: St. Louis area
I am surprised at the surprise with the manuscript. Am I the only one who has it printed this way by a publisher? I was surprised the first time I saw the first two notes in the bass clef.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1820250 - 01/07/12 11:33 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
boo1234 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 489
why is this prelude always played so slowly? I can understand if you're playing accompaniment for Ave Maria, but the tempo marking is allegro. Don't most of the preludes have a fast tempo anyway?

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#1820252 - 01/07/12 11:44 AM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: Hermanberntzen]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Henle Urtext edition has no tempo marking.

Curiously, the AMB urtext shows the second note in the treble clef while the WTC urtext shows it in the bass clef. So it appears that each way has an authentic tradition behind it.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (01/07/12 01:09 PM)
Edit Reason: more precision
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#1820265 - 01/07/12 12:23 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: boo1234]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: boo1234
why is this prelude always played so slowly? I can understand if you're playing accompaniment for Ave Maria, but the tempo marking is allegro. Don't most of the preludes have a fast tempo anyway?


Bach vary rarely (to my knowledge) put tempo markings on his keyboard works. One exception that comes to mind, among others, occurs in the Prelude in C minor from Book I of the WTC where, at measure 28 there is a Presto indication; at measure 34 there is an Adagio indication followed by an Allegro indication 35. None of the Preludes and Fugues from the WTC has an overall tempo indication at the beginning of the piece. The Allegro marking you speak of is obviously an editor's suggestion. Look at the manuscript in beet's post; there is no Allegro marking.

One reason that the tempos of Bach's Preludes and Fugues vary so much from performer to performer is based on the very fact that there are no tempo indications.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1820267 - 01/07/12 12:29 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: boo1234]
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8482
Loc: Ohio, USA
not so. it can be played fast or slow, depending on what mood you want to make. i once saw an older pianist playing it really fast (no pedal), making it furious sound.

i play it faster, but not that fast.

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#1820382 - 01/07/12 03:44 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: boo1234]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: boo1234
why is this prelude always played so slowly? I can understand if you're playing accompaniment for Ave Maria, but the tempo marking is allegro. Don't most of the preludes have a fast tempo anyway?


Allegro? Where in the world did you see that? The tempo should be based on the character of the work.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1820401 - 01/07/12 04:11 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: BruceD]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3617
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Bach vary rarely (to my knowledge) put tempo markings on his keyboard works. One exception that comes to mind, among others, occurs in the Prelude in C minor from Book I of the WTC...

The other exception from WTC (the only other one as far as I know) is the final pair from Book I: the prelude gets an Andante and the fugue gets a Largo. Neither of which stopped Gould from playing them (beautifully) at a ridiculously fast tempo.

-J
_________________________
Schoenberg op.10+k, Beethoven op.100+k for k=9
Schubert D.899/4, Chopin op.25/2

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#1820403 - 01/07/12 04:18 PM Re: Bach - Prelude in C Major WTC.1 [Re: beet31425]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Bach vary rarely (to my knowledge) put tempo markings on his keyboard works. One exception that comes to mind, among others, occurs in the Prelude in C minor from Book I of the WTC...

The other exception from WTC (the only other one as far as I know) is the final pair from Book I: the prelude gets an Andante and the fugue gets a Largo. Neither of which stopped Gould from playing them (beautifully) at a ridiculously fast tempo.
-J



... and in the Peters edition, Prelude XVI, Bk II, is marked Largo; presumably this is Urtext, as this is the only Prelude with a tempo indication in Bk II of this edition.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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