Hi all,

I am back! I had my first lesson with the new teacher this Monday. Her approach is very different from what I had before (mentioned in a prev. post). The 45-minute session includes scale, Hanon exercise, and other "foundational stuff." We did start learning a new piece. We could have added sight reading but ran out of the time. Call me crazy, but I find practicing scales/Hanon oddly relaxing -- like meditation!
So far I am very pleased that my concerns have been addressed by the new teacher.

However, now I have another question! How is scale practice related to playing actual songs? I know that practicing scales can help us become familiar with the keys, but how does that translate to playing actual pieces better? Do people consciously think "oh, here is a G chord, and there is the inverted C chord, and the next note is the perfect 5th", etc.? How long does it take before the "quantum leap" happens when we see/understand the structure/theory of the music, instead of solely relying on finger/muscle memory?

Thanks in advance! Any "light on the other end of the tunnel" insight is appreciated!

I don't think practicing scales makes you see music any differently. It's hand training, not ear training or theory learning.

The idea, as I understand it, is to pursue development simultaneously on several aspects. The "foundation" exercise component is to get certain frequently encountered movements engrained with proper technique and touch. Your theory knowledge is developed by studying theory and training your ear to hear harmony (very, very important!). Your reading ability is developed by reading a lot of music.

Then working on actual pieces of music is where you bring the technical/foundation elements together with your reading and ear training/theory skills and learn to apply them in service to your musical goals.

Or so I understand it. Scales don't teach you what to do, they prepare you so that when you know what you need to do you are equipped to do it well instead of poorly.

Classical music (as well as other types) contains plenty of scales/fragments and arpeggios, for one thing.

The world seems to be divided between those who say only do technical exercises as part of practicing specific pieces and those who say do them separately.

Done in moderation (just a few minutes) I like scales as a warmup and something you can easily pick up - but make them musical, not just rote.

When I'm practising sight-reading, I play the scale before every exercise or piece. Not from notes, just the way I would play the scale if I had no music. I make sure I know which notes are raised/lowered, or which ones are not. As for sight-reading, when you recognise a scale instantly, you can only play it easily if you have the technique behind it as well. The same goes for arpeggios, broken chords and pretty much anything else.

As for the general side of things, scales are just useful in any piece of music. Everything's based on the scale, even if it's only moving up a second or a minor second, a minor sixth, etc. Chords are based on the scale. Arpeggios are based on the scale. You know what to expect as far as sharps and flats are concerned, and can easily alter it if it modulates.

Thank you all for the replies! I think I just need to put in the hard work (exercises) in order to get the benefits. Onward!

Melody,

Let's see - still RINGING in my head are Joy to the World . . . Sleigh Ride . . . We Wish You a Merry . . . Chestnuts Roasting . . . Away in a Manger . . . Silver Bells . . . and smaller "fragments" from that Drummer Boy. By Christmas 2012, you will have 95% of all Christmas songs mastered!

Ed

Learning the scales and chords is very beneficial to learning/playing actual pieces. It can make reading a lot easier because you will do exactly what you said, you will recognize the chords you are already familiar with. You will start to see patterns and know almost automatically what it is.

Every song is written in a particular key and that key pertains to a scale. So if you have the scales and chords under your finger then playing a song written in a certain key (like one that has a lot of sharps or flats) will be much more comfortable for you.

One thing my teacher has me do for example, if a song has broken chords etc she will have me play them first as a blocked chord. No one ever told me to do that before and it really does help with learning the song. For example one song had and E chord then E in the first inversion then in the second then back to E. By blocking those chords I recognized that pattern right away so when I to that part of the song I though "oh this is easy" and knew right away what to do/play AND I memorized it in an instant as opposed to trying to remember every single individual note.

Also, intervals are extremely helpful. Most people I know who read really well tell me they don't read each individual note. They "read" the intervals.

I guess what it really comes down to is what works for each individual. But I definately notice it is much easier to read/play the more familiar I get with theory, scales, chords, and intervals.

Ok I rambled on long enough.

btw... I find scales and hannon's relaxing too.

Ed -- I hope so!

Kymber -- thanks for your input! That's encouraging! I have trouble with broken chords if they are not in triad format -- takes me forever to figure out that all these "scattered" notes are supposed to form chords! Hope it will get better. I also have the same problem with interval reading that someone else mentioned a few weeks ago, that when I start a new line, my interval-reading is all messed up because there is no reference in the immediate neighborhood (so to speak). My teacher said that I need to "read ahead" to compensate.

Hi Melody,
You will see it will get easier the more familiar you get with music.

As far as notes with "no reference in the immediate neighborhood" those you will probably read as the actual note and from there read the rest as intervals. I think you will find you will do a combination of things the more you learn and the more familiar you get with music theory and notation etc. At least that's what I do.

Re: reading ahead. Boy is that one tough. My teacher is always telling me to read ahead. She will even take a piece of paper and and slide it across the music as I'm playing to keep me moving. It really helps me to get the "feel" for what she is talking about but whenever I see her pull out that piece of paper I'm like eeeeeek! And the whole time I'm playing I'm like AAAHHHHH! But it's definitely a good exercise.

Thank you, Kymber, for the tips! Sounds like your teacher is full of useful teaching tricks! You got a good one there! Do you mind if I steal her ideas and ask my teacher to do the same (after I get better)!

I have had 2 Piano Teachers, one believed heavily in scales, and my current teacher, has be do Hannon exercises, until I can't stand them.....What is the better way? and does one have to perfect scales and cords to play?

Fortunately, nothing has to be perfected to play. Although if you want to play some of the virtuoso level classical repertoire and get paid to do it you'll need to be darned near perfect at a lot of things.

Otherwise, it depends very much on what you want to play and how well you want to play it.

Hey Melody!

I am actually working on the same thing. I am working on Scale, Chords, and Arpeggio's and I am also playing Etudes! My teacher says that doing them will make your fingers stronger and you will have more control over what your hands are doing when you have to play pieces that require you to do two different things with your hands. I'm using two books right now and a packet my teacher has put together for her younger students who take the piano exams. What piece are you working on?

Also, maybe I should talk to my teacher about extending to 45 minutes. I don't think 30 minutes is enough to do everything she has me doing. We will see!

Scales help improve technique, gives your ear a sense of what is logically a correct tune and helps in sight reading. Hannon- is warm up. in my piano class, my old teacher, had me practicing hanon at record speeds when i'm learning an etude of chopin.

Here is a suggestion that I do...
This is a spin off from some physical training.
Practice scales, chords, Hannon?, whatever for 11 to 15 minutes. At least 11. Definitely not over 15. Can quit at anytime between there that you want. Keep accuracy high. Stress high. Discomfort low.
I will only repeat this after an hour, at the least. This is to allow me to remember. Basically... train my mind, body, nervous system. I can practice songs or not do anything on piano in between.
The point is... the time strongly focused on the scales gives greater results. I believe...
This is just my opinion from my personal experience. I could be completely out in right field.

Playing songs from scales you already know becomes easier and easier as you go. You will already know your sharps or flats and be familiar with the chords.

Scales can be used to practice dynamics, speed, rythm patterns, etc. I find it really helps with learning to relax my hand, as well coordinating the hands when playing hands together or learning to go in different directions.

I find it interesting to learn how to build the various scales and chords so you know the scale very well by the time you're done.

I can say when I first learned scales as a kid I found them very challenging. But I believe nothing helped me learn to relax my hands more than doing scales did.

Actually, in the middle of Hanon ARE the scales and a whole bunch of them -- the majors and the minors with the arpeggios -- I think they're one of the same. In fact, the first Hanon exercises are in C, but in my edition it suggests that the pianist run through those exercises in every key. (I haven't done it.) I don't know that it is a prerequisite to have perfect scales and chords to play -- but in my case, not having acquired the knowledge early on (or at least acquired the knowledge that has stuck) has meant that I've got to go back and relearn because I've hit a wall with intermediate pieces that require me to play in really unfamiliar key signatures (anything over three sharps and flats).

Before, I used to jump right into each practice piece -- now, I'm identifying the key signature, playing the major scale and the arpeggios, then the minor scale attached with arpeggio (if I know the scale, it doesn't take very long, maybe three or four minutes -- if I don't know the scale, then it's probably a good thing for me to be practicing it and Hanon has the fingering right there). THEN, I start the practice piece. I found that doing the scale calibrates my brain to the key signature which in turn helps me identify the notes much more fluidly. When I switch to a piece with a new key signature, I do the same thing. I've been doing this for three months now, and it's really helping me understand (learn) the scales and arpeggios rather than just doing the scales by themselves in a twenty minute warm up. I think that my brain needed more of a direct connection between the scale and the playing -- just like Melody101.

As for chords -- ummm, notice, I didn't say that I did the chords attached. My head just freezes with chords. So I given myself permission to thoroughly learn the scales and really know them and then I'll try to figure out the chords. There's the other thread discussing chords and my brain just can't follow augmented and diminished.

Musical Tom -- Hanon also has scales. I only have the "Junior Hanon" (simplified version ), but scales are included in the middle of the book.

Brent -- Agreed!

BrokenChord -- I already have a bunch of books, so my teacher just teaches with what I have right now. What are your books? No etudes or arpeggios for me yet. I feel as if I were starting from the beginning. I am working on Bach's Minute in G this week. It's the 2nd song in Piano Literature Vol. 1, which was recommended by my previous teacher (who thought that I could play Vol.3! Another evidence how little he truly knows me as a student.) It looks pretty easy, but I seem to have a mental block about it. I find the "contemporary" pieces at the end of the book much easier -- I learned the three pieces in a few hours, but have been struggling with this darn Minute in G for a few days now.

sarah_h -- good to know, thanks!

rnaple -- I only have time to practice about an hour a day on weekdays (sometimes less), though more on weekends, but I always start with scales and Hanon (or the sections my teacher assigned as "homework"). I like the idea of "interval training" (pun intended!).

ZoeCalgary -- Yeah, not being familiar with sharps and flats is one of my biggest issues so I will keep practicing. My hands are tense on the piano, scales or not, but I am working on relaxing them.

Susan_K -- That's an interesting trick. I will try it sometime! I agree with you regarding the chords. In my last lesson I spend quite a bit of time asking my teacher about chords, and when she got into all the major minor augmented and diminished, I just went "uh?" and she kindly suggested that we wait till later. Again, I need that direct connection between theory and playing, like, how does knowing perfect 4ths and 5ths or diminished etc. really helps me play better, because I am not going to count to figure out whether something is 4th or augmented! Okay, maybe I am just not there yet and it will come in time...

Other thread discussing chords? Where? (Do you mean the diatonic and chromatic intervals thread?)

I wouldn't worry about augmented and diminished to start with. Just learning major and minor triads to start is fine. Then the dominant seventh chord.

I think that was what Susan meant :-) In my method books (Farber) I learned the I, IV, and V7 chords for C, G, F, D. I am fine when they are "together" (correct term, in root position) since I remember the fingering, but when they are not in that neat format, I don't always see the chords.

You will ,with time...It's similar to how we all learned to read. Slowly, at first, stumbling over bigger words or new words and then, with practice and time, we read fluently- even books never read before.

The difference is, as adults, we want it all accomplished YESTERDAY.

Identifying the chords takes practice. First is to see if it's an arpeggio or an Alberti bass. What chords do the notes add up to? If they're not in a specific pattern like that, then look at the LH notes in the measure. Taken as a whole, do they add up to a chord? If they just make a mush, try looking at the notes in only part of the measure. You may need to rearrange the order of the notes. For example E then G (on the treble clef) followed by middle C needs to be mentally rearranged as C E G to see that it is just a C major chord. This rearranging takes time to do at first. The more familiar you get with which notes belong to which chord the easier it gets to do it.

One way to practice getting really familiar with chords is to take a hymn book and practice identifying the chords in it. If it's written in four-part harmony, consider the RH and LH together to get your set of notes. Another way is to find pop music that has the piano part written out and also chord names. Then practice finding the notes in the music that match up with the chord name. Feel free to ignore the really complicated chord names to start out and cherrypick the more basic chords.

I'd be happy to lead an online study group on this if people are interested. We could use music from the imslp for classical music, and first pages from sheetmusicplus for pop music.

And what piano joy said!

I would love a study group on chords. But you'd have to back up even more like what is a chord (I'm being totally serious). What is an Alberti Bass? And what do you mean when you ask "What chords do the notes add up to?" See that's where I just boggle. I'm not being facetious. It seems to me a chicken/egg thing -- in order to know what the chords add up to, I need to know the chord, which I can't recognize. What does I, IV, V7 really mean?

I think that when I was taking lessons as a child, it was so confusing to me that I just bluffed my way through all the theory books. I think my teachers just thought I would pick it up along the way because it seems as if other people pick up chords intuitively. It's weird because I can play arpeggios (which are broken chords)but I'm memorizing the pattern of individual notes. I don't see the chord "family"...sigh.

There has been only passing mention in this thread of ear training but it is the single most important non-technique thing that you can develop to become a real musician. And I say this as someone whose ability to hear harmony is terribly limited (but I'm working on it!).

Before setting out to acquire a lot of hard-earned "book learning" about Alberti Bass and Neapolitan Sixths or Voice Leading, start yourself firmly on the road to developing the ability to hear at least as much as you understand. Being able to score 100% on a college level music theory class but unable to identify a fairly standard progression when you hear it is of very limited musical applicability.

Adult students (like myself) are infamous for wanting to "understand" as much as possible. How do things work...what do you call that...what does such-and-such mean... the questions are almost endless to those of us with curious natures and a habit of learning complex stuff so it no longer scares or confuses us. It's a fine thing to have that urge for gaining knowledge. But you can not put it into practice without the crucial link formed by your ears. And if you ever play with other instruments, a good ear is a better skill to bring to the ensemble than any amount of technical wizardry.

Brent H, I find that knowing the theory helps guide my recalcitrant ears into paying attention to things they would otherwise miss.

I'd love to have a brilliant ear, but failing that, I work with what my strengths make easy for me and try to shore up my weaknesses.

Susan K, I'll start a thread for a chord study group. First I need to think a bit about the OP for it. I definitely want it to be a place where any question can be asked.

I would love this too.




Fot me most of this stuff seems complex I admit to wanting to 'understand' everything as an adult beginner learner. I attend classes which are group beginner classes for adults. (They don't resume til next month as we are in summer and they run according to school term - even though we are adults!).

In this class we learnt chord I (1 in roman numerals) - that was all the info we got... it was written on the staff and we learnt to read/play it as a I chord. Its not until I started teaching myself over the summer with Alfred's that I discovered that it was a C major chord. At the same time we learnt the I chord, we also learnt chord V7 (V = roman numeral 5).... no more info than that, just the chord on the staff, which I now know is G7. I kept bugging the teacher by asking 'what do these mean'.. and she said not to worry about that yet, just recognise that you have learnt a 1 chord and a V7 chord. I still don't know what G7 MEANS.. or what any <insert note here>7 means.

I'm at the point in Alfred's AIO book one, where I'm learning C chord all over again with the hands in G position! I can understand in theory that any combination of C E G results in a C major chord, but learning it away from the comfort zone of my right and left hand C position makes it seem more daunting than I know it should be... sigh... if this study group covered things on a very basic level as well as more complex things then I'll jump in with both feet (or should that be hands?)

Chord study group thread started. Come on over!

Melody - Scales are the basis of the western music. I will use scales and arpeggios as my warm up exercise along with hanon. I suppose if playing any form of scales in any key becomes second nature, one can stop using the scales as warm up exercises. But it's not easy to master the scales to perfection. I have been doing scales at least for 3 years and still not satisfied. I started out 1 note to a metronome click at 60 for 1 octave 3 years ago. Now I play 4 notes to a metronome click over 4 octaves. I go through major and 3 form of minor scales per key.

My challenge now is to play the 4 notes evenly and absolutely together with the same volume fitting within one click of the met. The four notes should not sound like messy triplets. They have to be together. I don't want any bumpy sound or accent either. Until I achieve the clarity I want, I would not up the speed. I would like to get up to 4 notes to a click with the metronome set at 100 this year (sigh). How does it gets translated to my playing? I think it helped me a lot. I used to have problem whenever I encounter with runs with lots of scales and arpeggios. No matter how many hours I practice, I could not execute them as smooth as I wanted. Now those things are getting easier than before. It's just there are a lot of passages in classical music that requires scales and arpeggios.

Of course, there are individual differences. I am not the most dexterous one. I have seen people (kids too) master scale runs as easy as a piece of cake. I hope you are one of those lucky ones:) Oh, speaking of scales, it's time for me to put my daily 15 min of scales

piano_joy -- "wanting to do it YESTERDAY"... Touche!

PianoStudent88 -- You hit the nail on the head! It's the "adding things up" (and inverting) that's tough, like, do you add things up before you play, or as you play? When you are sightreading, you won't have the time to add the notes up to a chord (I don't even read specific notes -- I read intervals!). I noticed the chord names in some books -- great idea! Looks like you already started a group. Thank you!

Brent -- Luckily my current teacher includes ear training in the class. We ran out of time last week but I will see how it goes this week! I often wonder about learning music vs. learning a new language, both much easier when we were young. Kids don't need theory to speak well -- they just hear, imitate, and before you know it, they are fluent. I wonder if music sometimes is the same thing. But then I struggled with playing for the past year because I wasn't (still am not) familiar with the alphabet (scales/chords), like someone who can speak but can't write. So I think a balanced approach is crucial.

FarmGirl -- You are already pretty dextrous (and I am not one of the lucky ones)! I have been practicing and it's improving. I am taking it slow and sometimes I executed it perfectly and other days I still mess up the fingering (3rd? 4th?), and I am sure it will only get tougher with the sharps and flats, and when I try to up the speed. Glad to know that it helps -- makes me want to practice more!