Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1822512 - 01/11/12 02:27 AM another arm tension question
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Hi folks--

We've visited this topic 1000 times; here's 1001. smile

I'm starting the revolutionary etude in full force. (Tried it 25 years ago with limited success, but now I think I can pull it off.) Slow to medium practice yields some overall left hand fatigue. I've found some of the spots where I'm tensing, and I'm sure there are more to be found.

My question is this: If my hand feels tired after practice, is that necessarily because I'm doing something "wrong", like holding tension? Or, could this fatigue in part be simply due to the fact that my hand isn't used to playing so continuously, and it needs to build up endurance?

Here's a metaphor: If you were in decent shape and one day ran for 10 miles, you'd feel exhausted, not because you're running incorrectly, or holding some kind of body tension, but just because you're not yet conditioned to that kind of workout. In time, the exhaustion will go away on its own.

Do you think piano fatigue is like that? Of course, some-- a lot-- of my fatigue is due to tension; my question is whether it's necessarily *all* due to tension, or whether, on the contrary, I might expect some "natural" fatigue that will naturally dissipate as my hand gets conditioned to the piece?

Will ask my teacher next week; interested in your thoughts in the meantime.


-Jason
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#1822532 - 01/11/12 02:56 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: beet31425]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Its very similar when i started Chopin Etude op10 no.2. At first, i got tired after only a few minutes. But as I kept at it, slowly i got less tense, and got more stamina. It's not all about tenseness, it is also something about building about stamina-in time, it will very likely improve.
Originally Posted By: beet31425


My question is this: If my hand feels tired after practice, is that necessarily because I'm doing something "wrong", like holding tension? Or, could this fatigue in part be simply due to the fact that my hand isn't used to playing so continuously, and it needs to build up endurance?

Here's a metaphor: If you were in decent shape and one day ran for 10 miles, you'd feel exhausted, not because you're running incorrectly, or holding some kind of body tension, but just because you're not yet conditioned to that kind of workout. In time, the exhaustion will go away on its own.


The above seems the case. And if that runner started running for maybe half that distance (original distance 10 miles) for a while regularly, then he would be quite equipped (has more endurance) to do ten miles after that kind of practise.

Top
#1822533 - 01/11/12 02:59 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: beet31425
....My question is this: If my hand feels tired after practice, is that necessarily because I'm doing something "wrong", like holding tension? Or, could this fatigue in part be simply due to the fact that my hand isn't used to playing so continuously, and it needs to build up endurance?....

I smell trouble here.
Not because there's anything wrong with the question, but because it's the kind of thing where anyone who answers and isn't too careful about the wording -- or even if he is grin -- will be inundated with stuff about what's wrong with what he said, because he didn't choose his words carefully enough or that the answer wasn't exactly perfect. grin


But nevertheless..... ha

It could be either, or some other things, including:

-- suboptimal fingerings here and there

-- something that could be mistaken for 'tension' but is actually something else: failing to find the best 'angles' for the hand at each moment

-- the piece is too hard for you, and your hand is struggling hard to do something it really can't
(hopefully that's not it) grin

-- you need to redistribute some of the notes to the R.H. ha


But besides all that....I think it's likely that you'll find....

Quote:
....I might expect some "natural" fatigue that will naturally dissipate as my hand gets conditioned to the piece.

Take it sort of easy during the current stage, not letting yourself feel much strain at any time (and indeed maybe consider whether some fingerings and 'positionings' could be improved), work yourself up gradually (which I think you'll find possible), and see how far you get.

And see what your teacher says. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1822537 - 01/11/12 03:07 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: Mark_C]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
eek Mark_C, you make me nervous. Was my answer perfect enough, and dis I choose all the wording well?

But good post! thumb

Top
#1822538 - 01/11/12 03:09 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: Rotom]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Rotom
eek Mark_C, you make me nervous. Was my answer perfect enough, and did I choose all the wording well?....

I can't tell -- I'm too nervous waiting for my post to be blasted to smithereens. ha
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1822543 - 01/11/12 03:26 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
-- something that could be mistaken for 'tension' but is actually something else: failing to find the best 'angles' for the hand at each moment..

I agree that this is important, but is it really different from tension? If the hand is at the wrong angle, it's probably going to be producing unnecessary tension.

Here's how I'd put it instead (how does this sound?): there are different ways of relieving tension; in addition to just "lightening up" and not clenching, there is thinking about the proper hand position and angle (what my teacher likes to call "handing", analogous to fingering).

-J
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

Top
#1822550 - 01/11/12 03:34 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
^^ Yes, a different way of saying the same thing. ^^

The reason I express them as distinct things is that if you just regard it as "tension," you might think only in terms of things like "muscles" and "feeling," and only work on relaxing the hand -- I think that's what most people would do -- and not consider looking at the basic physicality of the approach, things like angle and position.


Edited by Mark_C (01/11/12 03:38 AM)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1822554 - 01/11/12 03:41 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: beet31425]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Maybe have more relaxred arm movements, and your hand and arm's movements should help each other, and make it easier.

Apparently, muscles work in pairs. When you move any part of your body, one muscle in the pair contracts (gets tense) and the other relaxes (and stretches). Of course, you have to move your arm, but make sure it is relaxed still.

Top
#1822609 - 01/11/12 07:37 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: Mark_C]
piano joy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/11
Posts: 807
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Rotom
eek Mark_C, you make me nervous. Was my answer perfect enough, and did I choose all the wording well?....

I can't tell -- I'm too nervous waiting for my post to be blasted to smithereens. ha


Stores must not be awake yet. ....

oops, did I say that? smile
_________________________
I don't care too much for money. For money can't buy me love.
-the Beatles




Top
#1822639 - 01/11/12 09:10 AM Re: another arm tension question [Re: beet31425]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1492
You should not have tension/exhaustion after practicing Revolutionary. How do I know? Because I used to get tired, but after I learned the correct technique, I did not have that tension anymore when playing this etude.

Break the long phrase into shorter phrases, practice slowly those shorte phrases ( play with various rhythm etc), then combine them. It works for me.

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need help with chords
by Shirz
Today at 07:52 AM
Which are the best forums for piano technicians and DIYers?
by Withindale
Today at 03:17 AM
Prelude
by noobpianist90
Today at 01:55 AM
Red Striped Screws and Fancy Nuts
by chernobieff
Yesterday at 11:57 PM
Communication outside of lessons
by Arghhh
Yesterday at 10:23 PM
Who's Online
94 registered (anotherscott, beeboss, alfredo capurso, 36251, 32 invisible), 1198 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76651 Members
42 Forums
158487 Topics
2327481 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission