Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum What bad habits do self-taught pianists commonly develop?

Starr Keys, what do you mean by "the hand positions using octaves"?

I can't teach Mike's course for him, or penetrate the genius of his insight into a process that takes time to build skills. But generally speaking, he teaches us to hear and play the melody as octaves and then gradually add notes within the octave to harmonize the melody.

For example if the melody note is E, we can play the E octave, adding the interval of a 3rd from the bottom of the octave (G) in between the bracketed octave (fingering 1,2,5) or a 5 (B) (fingering 1,3,5) then, after learning to distinguish between those harmonies, we can combine them (fingers) 1,2,3,5), or try another harmonization (interval of a 6th from the bottom of the octave, for instance). This is different than thinking in terms of intervals in a chord because, even though you're playing an interval of 1 and 3 (and 8), the 3rd, unless the melody note matches the root of the chord played in the left hand bass, may not even be a chord tone, so rather than learning chords and inversions, you learn to identify within the bracketed octave any tone you are harmonizing the chord tones and non-harmonic tones of the melody with its hand position, but you learn it aurally and tactily (not as an abstraction or symbol) -- you are forced to.

For instance, in a I chord in the key of C, if the melody note is B and you play the octave, the 3rd interval from B is D, which is a non-harmonic tone in a Major C chord, but if the melody note is E and you play the E octave, the 3rd note from E is G which is a harmonic tone. The hand position is the same for both. The point is it's much easier to learn a basic hand position for playing a myriad of chords than learning a myriad of chords to play with a limitied number of hand positions.

Hope this makes sense. If not, you can always join PM.:)

I'm self-taught over 20 years. I had a lot of behavioral issues as a young child, so formal lessons were briefly tried, but soon given up on. Now that I'm still at it, here's what I can offer as what I think my limitations are (echoing some of the others above):

1) I don't read music. I just don't. I've taken theory classes, and I know some basics, but it's like my friends who took two years of Spanish in high school and still can't remember much beyond "Buenos Dias"

2) I slouch at the piano, my posture is not what it should be

3) My technique is erratic and inconsistent. I play some pieces fine on some days, and find them impossible on others.

4) My repertoire in practicing sometimes gets tired and repetitive. I'm always tempted to drift back to the same blues riff or love ballad I wrote, instead of something new.

5) Pieces I think I've learned by ear end up being subtly different than the real thing.

6) Tempo is very, very hard for me. I recently just started recording with a metronome, after 20 years, and it is a painful experience, though does help me keep time.

However, there are some benefits to having been self taught, that I can see:

1) It was never a chore for me. I picked up the piano and keyboard on my own as a child and would dig into it with just as much enthusiasm as my Nintendo. I only played the things I wanted to learn, even if they were difficult. The opposite of this, I imagine, is one of the reasons most kids take an instrument for a number of years and then drop it when they have the opportunity.

2) I have a very well-trained ear, from what I'm told. Formally-educated musicians have told me they are astonished at how quickly I can begin replicating a melody.

3) Knowing chords and keys, at least, have helped me play with others, especially rock and pop stuff. I rely on basic chords for everything I want to learn how to play that I can't immediately figure out. I often joked to my friends I wished I could find the basic strumming tab sheet for Rachmaninoff.

That's because the good stuff is always hard and the simple stuff isn't very good music at all. Grownups just can't do Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.

That's not true for everyone. I have actually come across some sweet sounding simple tunes and quite enjoy playing them. I don't mind one bit about having to play the simple stuff, even Twinkle Twinkle. Whatever it takes to keep me progressing and avoid holes in my playing then that's what I'll do.

Neil.

I'm with Neil on this one. My very first tunes were twinkle twinkle, mary had a little lamb etc. The next step of of music I learned was twinkle twinkle again! I don't care if it's considered little kids songs or not, if it helps me progress and teaches me something I will learn how to play it. I'm not in a big rush to learn because I'm enjoying the learning part so much. Here's an example of adult twinkle twinkle btw:

Simple tunes made fun. My all-time favorite PW ABF thread:

Mary Had a Little Lamb made fun

Cathy

That is an amazing little rendition of twinkle twinkle

My particular repertoire and practice regiment is very simple and basic, but what I play puts a smile on my face every time… that’s saying a lot!

Rick

I realize starting simple makes sense and is the best way, but the really nice simple stuff isn't always easy to find when you don't know where to look at first. Some people will think its petty to insist on not playing childrens tunes as an adult but some of us have good reasons for not wanting to play them. I work in education and many school years it has been mostly elementary or preschool. So, I've spent my day doing things that revolve around little kids. Then I come home to my own kids and when I was starting out on piano they were also little. By the time they were tucked in bed and I had my "me" time to work at the piano I had spent all day in kiddie land and I needed grown up music. Forcing myself to play "Twinkle Twinkle" and "Mary Had a Little Lamb" would have turned it into a chore I would not have stuck with. I've been making a point of looking for more simple things to play that I like now that I have a better idea what to look for in a piece or song to judge how difficult it may be for me.

I totally understand this. I think that it would be somewhat demoralizing to be an adult playing music intended for children. When I started my first-ever lessons as an adult (had had them for years as a child and teen), I was concerned about what I'd be given to play. My teacher did bring me back to very simple pieces to work on my fundamentals, but they were simple pieces from Bach, Schumann, and others - actually some very nice music and its own challenge to play well.

It was humbling enough to be doing easy easy stuff again (although very necessary). Had it been nursery rhymes and lullabies, it would have been demotivating (and apparently, unnecessary).

Which would your prefer: to play a children's song as a rich, complex arrangement or to play an adult song as a boring barebones arrangement? It is much easier and takes far less skill to play a song that basically uses three major triads and add a few non harmonic tones that make a huge impact in the context of a heretofor heard simple song, and to use a larger portion of the piano playing arpeggios and broken chords that basically use only 3 scale tones, than to play a more sophisticated tune that must use non-harmonics (or altered chords) no matter how it is arranged to even sound like you're playing it correctly, let alone in a way that sounds at all interesting or accomplished.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across just right. Its not that I feel its generally demoralizing for an adult to play childrens music, or that I considered myself to be above playing simple music. Its a matter of having personally been immersed in all things preschool and kindergartedn all day at work, then coming home to my own preschooler and kindergartner and just really, really needing some adult time. I was listening to and singing childrens songs all day and all evening and I needed a break. Let's put it this way, when the average person hears the melody to "Frere Jaques" they will be thinking something along the lines of "dormez vous?". For me its "R-E-D red, R-E-D red, I can spell red, I can spell red, fire trucks are red, stop signs are red too, R-E-D, R-E-D". Its a matter of overkill. If I was working in a different profession or my children were older at the time maybe it would not have bothered me so much.

Sorry, I hear you. It wasn't my intention to invalidate your experience, just to suggest that it isn't necessarily the case that the simple and too familiar can't be transformed into something rich and fresh that can be more beautiful and interesting in the hands of a less experienced player than a more difficult piece can. But there are plenty of songs that fit the former category that are not associated with childhood, so you don't need resort to children's songs. If you like classical, Barccarole by Offenbach uses only 2 chords for about 85% of the piece. And Dvorak's Smphony No. 9 ("From the New World") Second movement theme uses mostly the I, IV, and V.

Mary Had a Little Lamb is my go-to song when I make jokes about my piano playing progress. A colleague will ask how it's going and I'll say "I can play Mary Had a Little Lamb with two hands now!" Thankfully that particular tune is not in my method book, though I have had to suffer through London Bridge and Michael Rows the Boat Ashore. Have I mentioned lately how much I love Bach?

Yes, indeed it was - but even more amazing is the fact that the most creative and prolific of all Classical composers used the theme of this old folk tune as the basis for another example among so very many of his incomparable compositional skills:



Mozart - Variations on Twinkle Twinkle


There are numerous performances of this on YT, most of them of very poor audio quality - this might be the best (and it's not all that great overall, although Noel does a credible job):





Trap

My aural skills are weak, so I am completely delighted that I can pick Mary Had A Little Lamb out by ear and play it with complete confidence.

I originally put it out there about playing pieces way over ones head. I understand fully no adult wants to play "Tommy the Turtle, etc."...and if you are a novice you don't always know where to look for pieces that are easier but also appeal to mature individuals. But they are definately out there!

The simple children's songs are useful because they are a) public domain, and b) familiar. When you know well how the music goes it it easier to play.

I always like to remind beginners that the vast majority of musical instruments are monophonic, and cover a limited range of tones. If you play flute or sax, you are only going to produce one note at a time. So making good sounding music is the goal even if the notes are not dense.

I guess the analogy of my original point is like someone who just finished novice ski lessons and then wants to hit the black diamond slopes! It would be counter productive to developing their technique, lead to frustration, and even injury.

I have a friend that self-taught piano, she played beautifully, but decided that she wanted to go to a piano teacher in order to advance more and to see if there was anything that she missed from being teacher-taught. The only complaint, from what I can remember, was her posture. She did not sit up straight enough and she did not hold her arms correctly while playing. Her piano teacher did not make her start all over, but rather watched her posture and arm placement for a short period of time. She did also help my friend start playing more complex pieces and she played and continues to play beautifully. I think it depends on the teacher that you get.

This is a fairly old thread, but I'd like to comment.

The whole "bad habit" thing comes up a lot on here and in the Piano Teacher's Forum, and I'd like to discuss my angle on it. Bad habits are inevitable. Teachers get them, students of all levels get them...everyone. But what is a bad habit? It is simply a faulty technique either due to a lack of understanding/recognition that this is a problem, or because of not knowing how to address these faulty technical problems. (Within "faulty technique" I incorporate psychological tension that comes from fear of a passage from any number of sources.)

The difference is that someone who is studying with a teacher or one who knows themselves well enough (such as a teacher) can identify potential bad habits before they become too engrained.