Not really fair or true IMO. Any book dealing with piano rankings must be somewhat subjective, so that should not a criticism. Of all the sources of opinion about pianos, The Piano Buyer is usually/often considered the most fair and objective. And although Larry Fine has the final say on the rankings, etc., he uses extensive input from other sources to make the rankings. "Larry's opinion" makes it sound more like there isn't input.

I think the distinction between for profit and not for profit is misleading. I don't claim to understand much about not for profit organizations, but doesn't Consumer Reports want to sell as many magazines as possible and won't some salaries go up if the number of magazines sold increases?

Although it is very good advice to trust one's own ears and fingers, it is also true that many piano buyers do not or don't want to or perhaps should not just trust their own ears and fingers either because of their piano playing skills or lack of familiarity with pianos. Most techs play more grands in a week than amateur pianists might play in a year or even a lifetime.

While this is true in some cases, relying on friends is not always a good option either.

For more 'familarity' there is always this website as well as PIANO BUYER. Buyers today have many options to familirize themeselves with product.

This is exactly where dedicated and professional sales staff can make a huge difference over just hired guns.

From our experience one of the most important aspects is a sense of credibility and genuineness, something most people can sense quickly.

There's a big difference in trying to wrestle the next deal from a customer and a highly professional, no pressure type approach to the subject. Add to it real passion and some fun when dealing with people and you see faces lighting up.

Actually quite humbling how many people pick things up rather quick - being players or *not*.

Norbert

If only there could be a reliable dealer ranking - according to competency, credibility and genuinness - this would completely or to a large extend make all piano rankings void.

This is however an illusion, elas.

schwammerl.

Dealers or their sales people can certainly sometimes be professional, credible, sincere, and honest. That is not the same thing as saying they have no vested interest in selling you the pianos in their store.

If one tales the makes at each price point a dealer sells, I can't imagine almost any dealer or salesperson saying at price A makes X and Y are just as good as the makes we sell, at price B makes R and S are just as good, etc.(unless they sell two different makes at similar price points).

Lots of issues. Piano shops are, more and more, looking like stereo shops: pianos set up by brand in different rooms and thus different acoustical spaces; so it's very hard to compare DIRECTLY these days pianos from China, Korea, Germany, and Japan, for example.

So on top of the issue of build quality, the consumer has to have a "memory" of the touch and tone of an instrument in order to compare them. I can well imagine that some Italian and German companies do NOT want their instruments set up in proximity to the Japanese and Chinese competition. German pianos are still, to the extent that one can generalize, the best sounding pianos to my ears, but I'm talking about the really expensive German pianos.

Fine's analysis (armed with the technical expertise of many others in the bus. mentioned above) doesn't quite reflect the reality of what seems to be happening out there. My hands, ears, and fingers are telling me that in some instances... perhaps a narrow set... the Chinese are leaping ahead of the Koreans AND Japanese AND Eastern Europeans and directly challenging the Schimmel-territory-instruments.

And I'm the first to say that I have always without exception deplored the sound and touch and build-quality of pianos coming out of China: Junk--all of them.

But I had a kind of "rude awakening" very recently on that issue... what can I say??? They cannot make automobiles, but they sure can make pianos, perhaps something to do with post-cultural-revolution exuburance for Western musical culture, which had been so brutally repressed. Who knows?

JG

Larry himself wrote recently:

"Buy what you can see with your eyes and hear with your ears."

He also wrote:

"In truth, almost every brand is so well made these days that the distinctions between rating levels are starting to become vanishingly small! Once understood in a general way, I would recommend putting away the ratings and basing one's decision on individual preference and price."

... on this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1583352/Re:%20Kawai%20K3%20or%20Essex%20EUP-123E.html#Post1583352

I agree with plover completely here. Despite its ivory tower non-profit status, Consumer Reports has had its fair share of notable blunders over the years, beginning in the 70's when it dubbed such turkeys as the AMC Gremiln and the Fiat 128 top automotive picks. It also has chronic information lag problems in a number of categories where, by the time the ratings are published, the highly touted product X is referred to as "no longer available". (Gee, thanks!) Piano Buyer may not be perfect, and Mr. Fine would never state that it is, but he hasn't advised his readers to buy any turkeys.

Regarding the advice to not overthink and simply trust your ears and fingers, Tenor (the OP here) has acknowledged that he can pick with his ears and fingers, but that he wants some help on build quality. He doesn't need some retailer who sells M&H and Estonia to imply that his Chinese brands are equally good. Tenor is not stupid.

This search for reassurance is hardly surprising. Regardless of what retailers who push Chinese brands write here, there is a leap of faith in buying Chinese that has nothing to do with cultural bias or political leanings. The leap can be facilitated by budget realities, intuitive feel, contrarian thinking, or by trust in outside information, but the leap must be made somehow, and for some people it's easier than for others.

It's not a matter of showroom performance. It's a matter of thinking down the road five or ten years. After 120 odd posts on this longish thread, the cleanest response to the OP's question is still Chris Venables' point by point rundown of the Chinese brands he knows.



If one explores cheaper Chinese brands, the risks are greater as factory prep diminishes or disappears completely, and materials are selected on the basis of low contract price, projectedwholesale price, and likely retail price. The products may be consistently mediocre or consistently inconsistent. This latter is probably the biggest reason other than price that a dealer will discontinue a brand.

I have made the same observation with pianos I have prepped recently.

No problem. We love setting up differently priced pianos side by side to top German pianos. Those who are willing to pay many times the price can see exactly what they are getting. And those who do *not*, are getting also a perspective of sorts. In fact, by paying about 1/6 of the price of the more expensive German piano, buyers will discover they're not exactly getting a piano 1/6 the quality and sound by choosing the other one on the right....

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Sauter-Ritt.JPG

Norbert

I doubt anyone would dispute that. Nice picture, BTW.

If you are referring to me here, I will claim responsibility for my assessment of the build quality of pianos that I am seeing on certain pianos from (who would have thought) China, as to being commendable and even exceeding many others.

You also seem to support and have stated appreciation for the contribution Chris Venables made here, even reposting it. Chris was also courteous enough to supply photos as I had suggested early in this thread would demonstrate what I and others have observed and reported. So why the contradiction in your post as quoted above, as if even the thought of that would be ridiculous, even stupid as you put it?

I continue to see workmanship, especially from Brodmann, that is on par with if not superior to the majority of other pianos. And there is also the added musical appreciation of the final result.

Nick,

As Chinese piano threads go, this one has been pretty amiable, so let me try to answer in that spirit.

I have twice re-posted Chris's run-through of points about the brands that he is familiar with (Brodmann, Hailun, and to a lesser extent recent Ritmuller) because he responded very specifically to questions of build quality. I think it's pretty clear that build quality was the issue on Tenor's mind, not his ability to judge showroom tone and touch.

I did not get anything from the videos you posted of your Chinese big boy grands. In one case, I'm not sure that the maker would wish the particular piano labeled as Chinese at all because of its unceasing efforts to Europeanize its image.

I don't question at all the sincerity of your enthusiasm for your Chinese brands, but other than expressing that enthusiasm, you don't seem to have much to say on this forum. So yes, I do think you push your brands rather than providing much content about them and/or weighing in on more generic topics..

My own experience with Chinese pianos is somewhat different from what a member expressed here recently about Chinese pianos being junk and now suddenly being transformed to instruments of remarkable quality --a view endorsed by you in a recent post here. I see it as incremental steps, mostly forward, but sometimes backward because of marketing, sourcing, lack of consistent quality control, and contract price considerations.

For example, I think the recent Heintsmann grands with the Bolduc boards are very nice pianos, yet for a variety of reasons they get no air-time here in this forum while the Brotherhood of Hailun seems to hold a parade every couple of weeks. I think the previous maker of Heintzmann, Beijing Hsinghai, would be perfectly capable of executing a very competitive piano if given a contract by a 'maker' willing to pay for it. Hsinghai has more building experience than even Pearl River, and it has the production capabilities and the machinery. Toyama, Brodmann's main source, has also shown what it can do. To me, and I know this is a minority opinion, the work of DongBei in scale design and build quality, was a landmark in Chinese grand piano design. I don't think that factory is passé now because it couldn't cut it, but rather because of business considerations that all too often get in the way of orderly progress. I think that's the sole reason that the few Everet and Hallet grands that are still around in showrooms are not relegated to Fine's bottom of the bottom. And personally, I wouldn't even overlook the bottom of the bottom for recreational players who are not planning to pound for hours daily.

In terms of your input to the thread, I was hoping that you (and maybe others) would follow Chris's lead and get down to specifics, both the pluses and the minuses. Any retailer I have ever had in-person contact with has been able to tell me what (in his estimation) I would get by buying his upper lines over his budget brands, and what I would lose by buying his lower-priced stuff. I asked you specifically to comment on that in this thread. You did not. instead, you stuck up those big boy videos. I doubt those videos were helpful to Tenor at all.

I know Tenor has a piano, so there's no urgency of purchase in his case. My own guess is that if he takes the leap to a Chinese grand, he'll choose a PE 187, but that's just a guess.

Forgive me for not indulging in specifics here, but this is being done nearly every day in my showroom. Also do not want to be accused of advertising.

On the other hand, nothing beats a live and in-person assessment of tone, touch, and build quality.

As has been stated before, buy what you can see with your eyes and hear with your ears.

Some do not accept only the "tone and touch" model for piano quality.

Personally I do not see any further requirements for a quality instrument except cosmetics, and examining some of these newer offerings further does furnish proof that they are well made, which has already been pointed out here.

I guess each reader can make his own judgment as to what is advertising and what is not.

Chris's point by point rundown of the good and not-quite-so-good hardly struck me as advertising, whereas a retailer simply sticking up youtube promos does.