Just wondered what opinions the forum had on Chinese grand pianos makers

While I am sure opinions will vary among the Forumites, Larry Fine rates the Perzina as the current top-rated Chinese-made piano.

My personal opinion are 3 Chinese manufacturers-----Haillun Perzina and Broadman They are equally as good in my opinio

The op asked about grands and the Perzina grands are rated below Brodmann, Hailun and Ritmuller.

I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

Hailun, Brodmann seems good. Irmler, a subsidisry of Blüthner, also sounded good to my ear, but is not on the charts of Larry Fine. Essex is also quite nice. Ritmüller is good indeed. Good luck

Hi Tenor,

I gather from this thread that you're still sitting on the fence.

It seems pretty clear that Brodmann, Hailun, and Pearl River (through the Ritmuller label) are all seriously trying to export grand pianos to the West that can compete on grounds other than price. I'd say that's true of Heintzmann as well and I'm sure I'm missing some others.

The piano that I've liked the best (and which might have an inside track in terms of tone for a classical vocalist) is the Brodmann PE 187. However, I haven't tried them all by any means, and this is a very personal thing. That particular piano, the Brodmann PE 187, is made by Parsons Music in their Toyama factory. The factory has some other notable clients, including Kawai. I think it's safe to say that they do good work when they're paid well.

Fandrich & Sons, which imports stock Chinese pianos and extensively modifies/preps them in Washington State. Hailun is also good.

Larry Fine rates the Perzina grands below Hailun/Brodmann/Ritmüller with even a 'tentative' remark.

And the question is about grand pianos.

schwammerl.

A question of what's "best" is always dangerous to answer.

From my own observation and experience, the answer cannot be given by "brands" alone but more in consideration of individual models.

In the Brodmann line of pianos, while the shorter 162 grand is nice, the 187 and 212 grands are definitely outstanding.

In Hailun we have been mostly impressed with their respective 178 and 7'grands. The much discussed V series came as a complete surprise for those attending last year's NAMM and was extremely well received by all those who had a chance to try them.

Among those were a number of highly seasoned players including one admitted concert pianist. [the guy from Argentina - anybody remembering?]

Ritmuller has a 170 grand that IMHO "stands out" from their own and is a piano of virtually same quality as their larger 6' cousin.

And so it goes.

It's not just 'brand' but definitely 'model' also

Would expect same with some other brands worth same or similar consideration.

At same time, several makers are right now designing and re-designing existing models. The race is on in earnest with expectations of bar being raised higher and higher.

Including prices.

My own feel is that the time of good-excellent quality Chinese at very affordable prices is soon nearing the end.

Norbert

The latest Cunningham grand, that just came into their showroom this past week, is very impressive. Tim said there are a few changes from last year's model.

[i]Turandot wrote:

"I gather from this thread that you're still sitting on the fence.

It seems pretty clear that Brodmann, Hailun, and Pearl River (through the Ritmuller label) are all seriously trying to export grand pianos to the West that can compete on grounds other than price. I'd say that's true of Heintzmann as well and I'm sure I'm missing some others.

The piano that I've liked the best (and which might have an inside track in terms of tone for a classical vocalist) is the Brodmann PE 187. However, I haven't tried them all by any means, and this is a very personal thing. That particular piano, the Brodmann PE 187, is made by Parsons Music in their Toyama factory. The factory has some other notable clients, including Kawai. I think it's safe to say that they do good work when they're paid well."

I have tried several pianos in the past 4 months I have considered Estonia but here in the UK we do not have any dealers so I am unable to try one without a trip to the factory or mainland Europe.

Many techs here in the UK are anti- any Chinese grand so it is difficult to get opinions also longevity is an issue but not re-sale value whatever piano i buy will stay with me for some time. At the moment my current piano gets played an average of 3 hours a day - serious playing not just 'an opera singer accompanying himself at home or singing with an accompanist friend' not that this isn't serious playing!!

Norbert:

Here in the UK the W & L with slight modification are now being imported as Feurich 178 Professional II, I understand that Feurich are now owned by W & L?

Tenor70,



The new Feurich (Ningbo) - fomerly W&L - have indeed already become available in Europe. As the new Feurich website is still not on-line it is difficult (also for dealers) to refer to any specifics.

Summarizing one can say that Ernest Bittner (W&L), Julius Feurich and 'Ibach', mainly for new upright designs joined forces and created the 'new' Feurich company to built further on the extensive dealer network of W&L in Europe (> 250 dealers; some 2500 pianos sold annually) and differentiate the instruments from e.g. Hailun (also Ningbo but not distributed as a brand in Europe) by using different components, separete production lines within the factory, different voicing, exclusive new designs (models) and continuing (and extending) the existing 'Feurich Service Centers'. The pianos transit through these service centers before being delivered to dealers.
As a matter of fact much depends on the proper functioning of these centers for delivering an already well prepped piano to the dealer.
A further key element is the deication of the dealer himself as to get out the full potential out of these pianos. In fact this is equally true for any piano coming from China: dealer competencies and dedication are key!

Some Uk dealers already stock the new Feurich pianos. Mailny these are ex W&L dealers. Old W&L stock can easily be distinguised from Feurich Ningbo: different music desk and the serial number on the plate starts with an 'F'. Examples:

Shackelfor Pianos Cheshire

Robert's Pianos

Besbrode Leeds

Similarly for the same line of pianos a dealer network is on it's way to be set up in the U.S..:

Feurich USA

In an above post someone mentioned the Cunningham Pianos. This is in fact a home brand.

In the UK you also have a home brand based on the Hailun Ningbo pianos. As with the new Feurichs the aim is to differntiate these instruments from the regular line by having fitted specific components, taking full responsibility of pre-delivery preparation (voicing & regulation) and making it an honour to providing a high standard of post-delivery service. So more or less the same strategy as above but on a smaller local and personal customer focussed scale.
As dealer competencies and dedication are key, you are lucky to have such a home brand in the UK: The Venables Pianos.

Venables & Sons grand pianos

Will not elaborate any further as I assume there will be opportunities to do so if and when further threads concerning this subject are being opened on this forum in the future.

schwammerl.

There are many techs here who are "anti-Chinese grands" too, but not many who will tell you exactly why. I think some of it is understandable conservatism basked on lack of track record, and some of it is lack of familiarity. For all the hoopla here about Chinese pianos, there are many techs who have never worked on one, whereas most techs have worked on hundreds of Yamaha and Kawai grands and are very familiar with their service requirements. Also, if a tech is employed to service a new Chinese grand and the retailer who supplied the piano hasn't set it up properly and worked out the kinks, the tech's opinion of that piano brand will be downgraded.

The best retailer to work with is the one who can defend in detailed product quality terms (not prestige) why his higher line costs more and what exactly you are giving up in choosing his Chinese value brand. In your case, that evaluation should be in the light of three hours of serious play daily. I know Chris Venables could and would do that. I assume some of your local dealers would do the same.

NORDISKAPIANO Chinese-made piano, from design to the highest overall level of technology, but unfortunately in the hands of XXX defeat.

Everyone acknowledges that Chinese pianos are improving. Nonetheless, there remain in my view legitimate reasons to be still be somewhat skittish about them, as several of you have indicated the piano technicians in your countries have stated.

First, there isn't the same long solid track record that pianos from several other countries have carefully developed.

Secondly, it costs at least as much to bring a piano to the U.S. from China than Japan. Once at the dealership, Chinese pianos take up just as much floor space as any other and need to contribute significantly to the dealer's enormous overhead. And yet, despite these huge expenses, some of the prices are so low that it's hard to believe these give-away prices are SOLELY a function of inexpensive Chinese labor. It would make much more sense to figure that at least some of the difference for several of these brands might come from the use of less expensive (and therefore potentially lower quality) parts. I say this knowing that some have begun to use some German and Korean parts.

Finally, when we have limited information about how something will hold up in the long run, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the country's overall track record. Germany has a reputation for making high quality stuff (e.g., Porsche, Steingraeber & Sohne, etc.) at the high end of the market. Japan has a reputation for making very reliable solid stuff often at a more middle-class price point (e.g., Toyota, Kawai, etc.)

I don't need to tell you what kind of reputation most Chinese stuff still has to this day, and from my experience, for good reason. OK--it's in flux and getting better. But I'd rather pay more and worry less. Larry Fine has yet to rate any of the many many Chinese piano lines as professional quality let alone performance quality.

Thanks Turandot. No local dealers but Chris Venables has a very good reputation although he is 250 miles away from my home (a long way in UK terms!) but certainly worth a visit.

I believe that argument could be summarized "everybody knows they are cheap junk". No need to talk about specific instruments in the face of such a convincing generalization as that.

Tenor,

I don't know if it's any closer, but I've heard good things about how Hurstwood Farms preps its Chinese pianos and presents them realistically to customers without hype.

Hurstwood stocks Wendl&Lung. I don't know if they are transitioning from W&L to Feurich.

http://www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/

A closer look of what's really going on appears to be painting a slightly different picture.

Within Consumer Grade Pianos certain brands are moving up the scale surprisingly quick - some may say "uncomfortably quick"

We're not talking advancement up the scale taking several decades - but few years.

In fact, some of the better Chinese made pianos are now in very same company of certain Japanese models which have meantime "dropped" down a notch - rather than being advanced up to next level.

This, also in only "few years", by the way...

Attached Piano Book ratings from 2010 - 2011: watch the changes in one single year:

2010: http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall10/47.html

2011: http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/45.html

Anybody analyzing and watching the market on an ongoing basis can't help but acknowledge how fast things are moving, perhaps "uncomfortably quick" for some...

In the end you can do all the "advancing" or "dropping" you want - it's piano buyers who will be making decisions of their own in today's highly varied market.

With plenty of new, highly attractive choices out there, one is no longer surprised to hear so much about them - some of it even surprising us dealers.

Not always the best feeling when someone's arriving with $ 20,000 to buy a new grand, but then leaves happily having spend only a fraction of that....

As I had predicted a long time ago: in very short time there will be only 2 major groups of pianos: top class, top quality and then - "everything else"

Let everyone sort out exactly *what is what* - in each class.

Norbert

This misses the point. We all know Chinese pianos are improving. "Made in Japan" once meant junk and now means quality. The Chinese appear headed in the same direction.

However, no one can deny that the Chinese are currently still in this transition.

If I were young, I'd buy a P-95 digital for the cost of a weekend out of town, and then sit it out till the Chinese completed this transition.

But I'm old. I need a piano now. I can't wait for that sweet spot wherein the quality of Chinese instruments had completed this transition but before the prices go crazy. This happened with the Japanese. By the 1970s a U-series upright had become a solid instrument but cost next to nothing. Then, over time, the yen went from 360 to the dollar to about 76. There are no bargains any more. The Chinese are following the same path.

I wish them luck and will watch as the changes unfold, but till then I'm buying quality--not rapidly improving quality.

Two references to "uncomfortably quick" here, in quotes no less, presumably is to stress th point. Who is being discomforted? Who is being quoted?

I rather doubt that piano makers assess their fortunes by seeing where they stand in the latest Fine edition. I think they would look at unit sales, order books, margins, production and marketing costs, and growth, stagnation, or decline of their brand in world markets in which they compete.

BTW, if there really is a Japanese piano which has "dropped" from a higher category into consumer class, I'd like to know what brand and line it is.

Still, I can understand any retailer of Chinese brands' exasperation with Fine's creation of the professional category. In the instances of Yamaha and Kawai artist level pianos, it seems to be more of a lifetime achievement award than a reflection of any actual changes in the pianos being produced. And why a couple of other minor brands not normally associated with use by professionals are tossed into the category is beyond my comprehension.

One of the fascinating aspects of the Chinese piano boom is the inevitable consolidation that lies ahead. There are already some casualties: the aftermath of Gibson's purchase of DongBei, the end of W&L and Steigerman, the failure of the first Brodmann CE series, and the change of factory sourcing in several stencils from one Chinese factory to another.

Who really knows what lies ahead? Who has the leverage between Parsons Music and Brodmann? How big will Yamaha's commitment to production facilities in China become? When will Hailun take matters in Europe into its own hands? What Chinese state-supported makers will lose their subsidies because in the view of the state they don't employ enough homeland Chinese to contribute meaningfully to social betterment? Like every wave that hits the shore, some debris is swept onto the beach and left behind as the wave recedes into the path of the next one.

I just checked. You appear to be right and, as best I could tell regarding Japanese pianos MADE IN JAPAN, Norbert is wrong.

Boston; Yammy C grands, U-series uprights; Kawaii verticals, RX grands, have all been promoted from top of consumer class (2010) to the professional desigation of which you speak (2011).

All the other made-in-Japan lines (viz., Kawai's GM grands and Yammy's GB grands) have stayed where they were.

None of these made-in-Japan pianos has slipped even half a Larry Fine notch.

Perhaps it's not the "dropping" but by not advancing into same class as "professional quality" - the division between higher and lower groups of pianos by same manufacturer is clear.



And that's where the real misunderstanding lies.

IMHO Japanese manufacturers have long decided - seemingly "on purpose" - to build only their lower grade pianos in Indonesia and elsewhere.

This achieves 2 objectives at same time: not only does it protect jobs at home and prevents political turmoil but it also reinforces the etablished image Japan as a quality builder.

Fact is, that mass-production of any product today is becoming less influenced "where" it is done - but rather "how"

8000 German companies are meantime manufacturing in China, next time check where your Braun or Bosch appliance comes from.

Including your top of the line I-pad, your copier, you name it.

If we still are not believing the Chinese have both the determination and means to make things up to our standards, we are hugely misjudging the entire situation.

Problem is that it is happening so quick that many believe denying this development makes the process perhaps "more comfortable" - but it's changing nothing.

No, the Chinese won't be building top Mercedes or Audis any time soon, but Mazdas and Toyotas they surely will.

In fact, solar or electrical powered.

Norbert

To set the record straight, for what it's worth a bunch of made-in-Japan pianos DID advance from consumer to professional. (See my note above.) The others stayed put, neither advancing nor falling.

Of course if some Chinese pianos continue to advance, there could come a time when the lack of advance for some Japanese pianos could eventually make life tough for the Japanese.

This happened to us (America) decades ago, when there was a point before the yen began to rise wherein the Japanese were making better quality pianos than many of ours and selling them here at a lower cost. This killed many many American piano makers.

I've been to Japan several times and my sense is despite all their economic woes, they're arguably smarter than we are and are not likely to go down the same way we did. Remember when Hallet Davis, Henry F. Miller, Kohler & Camble, Knabe, Chickering, Aeolian, and many many other brands were true American pianos?

I do not think Brent H missed the point at all, on the contrary he hit the point very well.

This is not a thread about 'Who makes the best Grand Pianos in China' in general terms. I have the feeling the OP simply is trying to get help for a dilemma he is struggling with.

If indeed he thinks "many techs here in the UK are anti- any Chinese grand" and " no local dealers but Chris Venables has a very good reputation although he is 250 miles away from my home (a long way in UK terms!)" i.e. no or few other dealers can be found "to work with" who can defend in detailed product quality terms (not prestige) why his higher line costs more and what exactly you are giving up in choosing his Chinese value brand" then it is indeed pointless "talking about specific instruments".

If neither a dealer nor a tech (or both) can be found by the OP he will never be happy with any of those grands how good they may be.

No argument can ever bring him into the comfort zone.

schwammerl.

Glad you said that: it's already happening - big time...



I'm not so sure about that. People are smart in different ways.
Americans can do things few others can, so can the Germans, French, Belgians or everybody else.

Not to forget the Japanese or Chinese.

In a commercial world that is becoming mainly price driven, some will have the advantage no matter *who* they are.

Let's not forget it wasn't the Chinese who invented *outsourcing* - it was us.

I'm all for outfoxing those guys, but we have to come up with something better than belittling what happened in the meantime, the new products being made or denying the strength, talent and potential of those involved.

I know many don't want to talk about this honestly especially as strong commercial interests happen to be involved.

The genie is out of the bottle and it's becoming a monster....

As a dealer in today's market and at least 'practically speaking' I am very happy to offer some of the "best there is" - and some of the better, yet highly affordable quality for consumers.

It may sound corny, but a *child's smile is a smile* and when people can afford something nice of very good quality, something they couldn't easily otherwise, it's all right by me.

While many are struggling in today's economy with monthly bills, it brings pleasure offering pianos one would be proud to own oneself.

In fact I'll think it'll increasingly tough for those relying mainly on "name brand recognition" without making a compelling case of clearly superior quality.

This IMHO is a challenge now - and will be even more in future.

Norbert

I was summarizing friend jivemutha's argument and saying that if one truly believes that the very fact of being made in China means it is junk, then the rest of the discussion would not matter. I was not agreeing with that line of argument, simply pointing out that it was a very unsubtle one we've all heard many times before at this point.

Correct.

Tenor,

When I wrote that

"The best retailer to work with is the one who can defend in detailed product quality terms (not prestige) why his higher line costs more and what exactly you are giving up in choosing his Chinese value brand. In your case, that evaluation should be in the light of three hours of serious play daily. I know Chris Venables could and would do that. I assume some of your local dealers would do the same"

I meant exactly that. The dealer who defines his products as they compare to each other IMO is far less likely to be spinning and hyping than the dealer who insists on only comparing his products to those that he does not sell and has never sold. Norbert, in his never-ending quest to attack Japanese pianos by whatever means be can conjure from his imagination, has given you a sterling example of the second kind of dealer.

I would have implicit trust in anything Chris Venables says, publicly or privately. However, 250 miles is a long way. I think if you dig hard enough locally, you'll come up with at least a couple of others who fit the mold. There is a problem though. Most dealers stock Chinese as their lowest priced option and treat the pianos as such. This shows up in their level of enthusiasm and in their level of attention to the hours they would need to put in to present the pianos at their best.

After a bunch of emails back and forth with brother Will (Venables), I believe you can extend the same respectful compliment to him as well.

I wish I were in Merry Olde England buying my Yamaha from these guys (not that we don't have a really good dealer locally).

Norbert, remember that lovely prepped yammy C1 that you would take home in an instant?

The debate over the Chinese manufacturers is very heated. They are all improving, are quite good already. No doubt they will get better someday.

But then, who will make cheap pianos after chinese piano's (and labor) has increased in price?

Despite how some people feel about Norbert, such as what 'type' of dealer he is or whether he is 'hyping' or not, one thing can be said for certain. He was right about some of the better quality pianos coming from China that he gave reports about on these forums, and this was already many years ago.

Forget (for a moment) about ratings and all of the politics going on here. If you carefully examine some of these wonderful pianos (from China no doubt) after sitting down to play them, you will see that the criterion of a quality instrument has been met, and there is no reason to doubt that they will last into the future just as any other quality piano.

I certainly did not.

But for the price of this piano, one could easily get a Brodmann 187, 6'4 Hailun or Ritmueller 188.

Now, you didn't ask me to compare these pianos to the C1, did you?

Norbert

Of course not! i dont think you have a never ending quest to attack Japanese pianos, that's all.

The info is accurate, and that's the reason I learn so much here. Thank you

Easier said than done, but a good idea nonetheless.

So, let's go straight to the words of the thread title: "Who Makes the best Grand Pianos in China"?

You're a concert tech. You uncrate and prep pianos from the Hailun factory and pianos from the Parsons factory.

Who gets the nod? Is it a wash? That would seem unlikely.

Is either more consistent sample to sample than the other?

Whose pianos arrive in a better state of action regulation?

How does each compare in build quality to pianos you receive from Mason & Hamlin or Estonia?

What makes Estonia worth more money?

What makes M & H worth even more money?

What is someone giving up in terms of product quality by buying something from Parsons or Hailun?

Why should someone even consider paying more for something from Estonia or Mason & Hamlin?

William,

If I read the questions you made follow the above - and in fact many more could be phrased - then perhaps 'a' thread title should be:

'What makes the best grand piano coming from China?'

But as it is my perception that the objective of opening this thread by the OP was mainly getting some advice on whether or not buying a Chinese grand piano in the UK - and not so much starting a general debate on this subject - I think my question cannot be the subject of the discussion here without hijacking the original thread and should in fact be the title of an entirely new thread all together.

schwammerl.

The majority of durable goods we purchase here in the US are now made in China. I examine every product I purchase to see where it is made, hoping to purchase US made products. It is very difficult, even when buying high end products.

I abandoned my principles when I purchased a Brodmann piano. I was set to buy a used RX-3, but I found the touch more to my liking on the Brodmann.

My problem with Chinese goods is not quality (we can discern quality), but that we are losing jobs in the US and encouraging poor labor practices in China. Not to forget the environmental cost of transporting around the world.

I have to have some blind faith and listen to my ears and fingers!

The problem with many piano assessors the fact that they know the piano is Chinese manufactured puts the piano at a disadvantage straight away i.e it has to be a good piano it is a 'Steinway' etc. Fine's guide may be be flawed on this point - why not try assessing pianos 'blind' and only being told the manufacturer when you have assessed it. Might make for some interesting comments.

Turandot:

The distance doesn't really matter as i travel widely with my work so am ofter in the area of Chris Venables - there is one dealer nearer but I would be very reluctant to buy from them. I'll have to bite the bullet and have a visit.

I think it's important to distinguish between the question asked and what one thinks is the reason the question was asked. If the OP feels that he needs to restate the question to get the information he would like, he can certainly re-direct his question.

I can certainly understand why retailers must be prudent in giving a blunt response to the question asked. If a retailer stocks a certain Chinese brand or brands, he will not want to discuss candidly its shortcomings. Nor will he want to discuss candidly the shortcomings of rival Chinese brands as opposed to his own. Similarly, a retailer who does not represent Chiinese brands will not at thi point in time wish to point to Chinese brands as junk. That worked in this forum five years ago, but any dealer who followed that tack at this point would be subjected to an avalance of justified criticism. So yes, the question as posed is a delicate one. However, that does not mean that the question is inappropriate.

I am quite certain that the OP was not asking for.......

1.)a general tribute to Chinese piano brands

2.)a general opinion of durable goods made in China

3.)the political philosophy of members towards China

4.)a review of Fine ratings

5.)an obvious manipulation of Fine ratings to give a distorted view of Japanese piano quality.

The simple facts are that certain Chinese factories produce pianos of export quality, that others don't, and that certain Chinese export brands are better built and finished off at factory than others.

If retailers do not want to address that, they should simply avoid the question completely rather than extoll the virtues of Chinese pianos as a lump sum and suggest that these pianos as an undifferentiated class have made all other piano makers uncomfortable based on their sheer quality as opposed to their price.

The question of what you get in terms of specific instrument quality when you spend more is a question that any retailer who stocks low-priced Chinese pianos as well as higher-priced lines not made in China should be ready to address, if not here than in his showroom. If he cannot address that question and the parallel question of what you give up in spending less, then he should stock only Chinese brands. To suggest that other than a few elite painstakingly built and prepped European brands, all other pianos are equal is a gross oversimplification. People are not stupid.

To ask what one gives up specifically in terms of product quality in choosing a Hailun rather than a Brodmann, or an Estonia rather than either of the above, or an M & H rather than all three of the above, is a valid question to a retailer who stocks all four and has chosen to participate in this thread.

As with all piano purchases, it ultimately comes down to choosing a dealer you can trust and then finding a piano that you want to own, under the assumption that the trustworthy dealer will be honest about its quality.

If you can not trust the word of your dealer you shouldn't spend thousands of dollars with him. And if you can not trust a dealer of good reputation how in the world are you going to trust the opinions of a bunch of anonymous strangers on an Internet forum?

So I took the original question to be asking what particular brands are worth seeking out. Not hoping to elicit some final, authoritative word on the absolute best Chinese manufacturer, period. I think that is a too-literal reading of the question. And in any case the original poster was not asking for a referendum on the thesis that All Chinese Products Are Junk.

Surely by now we've provided some ideas as to brands worth consideration...

Tell it like it is, brother! This may be way too much truth for some dealers to choke down.

Since you live in England i would definitely contact Chris Venebales. Chris is also a Japanese piano dealer and will give you the straight goods.

I have had a number of discussions about this subject with Chris before and he is an incredibly open, knowledgable and forthright man. As you can see, here on the Forum you will get *opinions* from lot's of people who may have very limited personal experience regarding each and every model worth your considaration. Several don't even play piano or sat on any one of the pianos they're talking about: one would surely like to hear from THEM how they would rate a Ritmuller 188 against a Hailun 6'4, a 6' Perzina against a 187 Brodmann and so on.

For those who care, this is EXACTLY what I have been doing for years but the old boys network is not interested to have this published, perhaps EXACTLY because they know how good these pianos are.

As said, Chris is a different type dealer and will tell you the truth. He will also show you some good Japanese pianos - and so he should.

In fact if you end up buying a wonderful new Yamaha C1 - I'll be the first to congratualte!

You can also do a 'search' of several brands on this board and see what people have to say when having made a choice.

Unless these good folks are all liars, you will quickly see who is coming up again and again in testimoniual and may be a worthy candidate.The rest is personal perception, prepping of piano and taste.

Please let us know what your discovery will bring.

It's time for us wise guys to sit back and let shoppers do their own things.

Happy competition all shoppers!

Norbert

For the record, Fine rates Pramburger (platinum), Knabe, and Albert Weber (great Chinese names, aren't they?) a hair HIGHER than all the ones Norbert mentions except for Perzina verticals. Also for the record, Norbert sells most of the pianos he's touting. It doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth as he sees it. It does mean he has a vested interest. Most of us here do not.

Brent H.

When you became active on this forum a couple of months ago, you asked specific questions about the DongBei factory, its products, and brands that have been sourced at that factory. I remember asnwering your questions as specifically as I could. I took your questions at face value.

I would suggest that you do the same with the OP's question here. He is not asking for your interpretation of what is important based on your recent piano purchase. He is asking which Chinese factory (or factories) make the best pianos. It's a valid question.

Knabe, Pramberger Platinum & Albert Weber are Korean, not Chinese made pianos. Perzina makes excellent pianos, especially uprights if one can find dealer, same for Feurich [not even 'rated' at this time]

For someone looking in England there may be a different selection of pianos than we have.

I am 'touting' nothing here and only wish OP to find the piano of his dreams. I *was* perhaps touting things years ago when few wanted to believe me, even were full of ridicule.

It was no different when we adopted Estonia some 14 years ago and it's no different now. "Hyping things" has been an old accusation against me simply picking among those I have always seen great value and potential in.

I started my business from scratch myself and no daddy handed me over the reigns filled with Steinways and Bosendorfers. Every piano I ever picked, I did after a lot of deliberations.

So far, time seems to have proven me right or at least - "in the right direction"

Which is not to say that there wouldn't be many other fine makes and candidates out there as well. But since the market, outside real high end pianos, is getting continually smaller and certainly "tighter", more consideration will have to be made by shoppers of "what makes actually sense" out there.

Let everyone come to his/her own conclusion!

Congratulations in advance to OP whatever his final choice should be!

Norbert

Turandot,

I do not wish to neglect the homework assignment you have given me, just am having a busy Saturday.

I think it would also be very useful to point things out using photographs which I will need to take but I don't know how to post them.

Thanks,

Nick

This got me to do some detective work. It turns out neither of us was completely accurate. Though I don't know where I got the mistaken idea from, I had thought pianos labeled Young Chang or Samick were all made in Korea and other labels owned by Korean companies were made in China. Both assumptions have proven to be wrong.

As Norbert says, Knabes are not currently made in China. Some are, as he says, made in Korea (as Knabe is a Samick company). However, others are made in Indonesia.

Pramberger Platinum is also not made in China, but despite being a Samick line, it turns out to not be made in Korea either. They're made in Indonesia like some Knabes.

As for Albert Weber, it's a Young Chang line. It's possible that YC makes them in the Korean factory, in which case Norbert would be right (and I'd be wrong). It's possible they make them in their Tianjin factory, in which case Norbert would be wrong (and I'd be right). If anyone knows more about Alber Weber specifics, please enlighten us.

You are both partly right…and partly wrong. The skeletons (i.e., completed rim assemblies), frames (plates), along with cabinet parts and keys, are made in Tianjin. These are all shipped to Incheon where the pianos are assembled. The frames are fitted, the pianos are strung and actions are fitted, etc. in Incheon. Regulating and voicing is done in Incheon.

ddf

All of this intensive research may be of interest to you, but has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.The OP is not living a life accroding to Fine, and almost everyone who wants to know which Korean brands are made in Indoensia and which in China knows that already.

Time to get off Norbert's back. He has re-directed his efforts back to Chinese brands and away from Japanese brands and finding hidden intricacies in Fine's rough map of the market. He has supplied the OP with which factories he feels are frontrummers in quality piano production inside China and which models from those factories are espceially worth considering. Has any other industry professional here done as much?

Within the framework of the OP'squestion, Norbert has been very forthcoming. I find nothing to personally disagree with including his remarks about Perzina. Norbert has picked some winners and picked them early on. You can't take that away from him.

You can infer that Norbert recommmends them because he sells them. He can retort that he sells them because he believes in them. The difference is that you've put your compuer keyboard where your mouth is, and he's put his money where his mouth is (since his daddy didn't hand him the keys to a Steinway franchise ).

I think what the OP wants to really know is..how's it going to hold up, in say 10 yrs?
were not talking cars here where the salesman says "how old's the car?" well your due for a new one! here's our latest model! or flat screen TVs, were told they can last 15 yrs..
but everyone knows with today's technology no one's going to keep the same TV for 15 yrs!
Pianos on the other hand don't have a big turnover..
"yes sir/madam your piano's how old ? 10 yrs really? wellllll we have some new baby grands
just to your liking!! you just let us take care of that old thing..and trade it in
and well have your new piano delivered next week..and well dispose of that old tired piano for you too.."

I've been playing for 50 years. I've played everything (pretty much) on the market. Came across a Hailun 218 about 4 months ago and bought it pretty damn quick! No Brodmann, or Kawai RX, or Steinway B for that matter, or Shigeru Kawai--even--can hold a candle to this instrument. Maybe a one off. Time will tell.

Stunning instrument. Fine can't possibly have taken the 218s for a test drive. Played a Wendl 218 a month later, trying to determine if it is an exact copy. No comparison. Not remotely the same.

Sure, the Steingraeber Concert Grand in the same room as the Hailun 218 sounded better, but not obviously so, to be perfectly blunt about it.

Go figure.

JG

Nick Mauel and Norbert both sell Brodmann, Hailun (and Norbert also sells Ritmueller). As dealers who probably receive, sell and prep them by the crate, how about your opinions?
Which require more prep?
Which look like they go through better quality control?
Which company is better to deal with should you need to use the warranty.
And, most importantly, once sold, which pianos require more effort on your part as the seller?
I think all of those answers would help the OP (and anyone else looking for a top Chinese grand)

I never got to try a Ritmueller as there aren't any dealers in my area, but I did try a Pramberger, May Berlin, Hailun and a Brodmann (I tried all their ~6' models). I thought the Brodmann was far, far better (in my opinion of course) than any of the others, and so I bought it.
As a pianist, and a consumer, I obviously don't know how each company does as far as quality control, prep, warranty, tonal stability. My only experience is with the pianos I've played. Dealers who sell lots of them will have a much more valuable opinion (statistically speaking).

I seem to have hit a raw nerve, which I assure you was not my intention. You have suggested we should get back to the OP's original question. Fine. Lets, because I think the answer is in the thread.

Avoiding the contentious issue of how we are to view Norbert's commercial involvement in these products, he has, as you've said elsewhere, made clear his answer:

Certain Brodmann, Hailun, and Ritmuller grands

Warning: for those offended by mention of Larry Fine's opinion, please stop reading now--I'm not trying to upset anyone.

Larry Fine, of course, has weighed in on the same subject. Now that, through this thread, we've actually identified which are and which are not Chinese-made pianos and going only with the former, Larry Fine also has also made his answer clear (P.45 of the Piano Buyer):

Brodmann, Hailun, and Ritmuller grands

So, in the end and without any steam, the answer to the OP's question appears to be coming in in stereo. While the call must of course have some subjectivity to it, I would have to think that the OP is likely to take some comfort in the fact that 2 voices coming from vastly different positions have drawn near identical conclusions. (The fact that Norbert got more specific goes beyond the kind of designations made in the Piano Buyer but, presumably, might be of further interest to the OP.)

I have come to similar conclusions as Norbert, and mostly agree with what he has stated here. That is also why we happen to sell some of the same brands, as well as many other dealers also carrying these same brands.

However, it should be noted that in the Fine ratings which have been referenced here, Brodmann grands were in their own group above any others coming from China for a few years, until they were joined by Hailun and Ritmuller recently.

When this happened, I was surprised that Brodmann did not also advance. Although Hailun certainly has some standout models such as the 178 and larger grands, the bigger Brodmanns floor everyone that sits down at them (I stock both 7' and 7'6").

There are certain details of the Brodmann design and construction that tend to exalt them and make them comparable to far more expensive pianos.

This can be noted throughout the entire line. There is a significant degree of consistency and features among all of the models that most people consider very appealing, from small to large grands.

The 9 foot Brodmann concert grand has already made an appearance and will be again shown at NAMM, along with other models being produced in Vienna.

The Brodmann Piano Company is unique in how the pianos are produced, since the company is based in Vienna and uses very high quality components in key areas while at the same time keeping labor costs down, thereby producing a very compelling yet affordable piano.

The company leadership is comprised of several former executives of Bosendorfer. Their very high standards are thoroughly reflected in the quality of the pianos.

Opinions,opinions, opinions...

Here's another one, not without the usual dish of disagreement of course.

Please also note, the pianist herself is a Steinway owner..

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/49.html

Insider tip: "best" is a very personal judgement, we all know this. Perhaps one should be entitled to some kind of opinion after having played at least 10 identical specimen each.

One, well... is really only - "one"

And "none" is - well let's not even go there...

More input from you shoppers out there needed!!

[Free popcorn supplied by Kassmann Pianos!]

Norbert

Norbert or Nick . Could either of you comment on the condition of these pianos as they arrive from the factory.
How much prep is required and some of the other questions

I absolutely wish that a Brodmann had been available to A/B against the Hailun 218. I had been told that if I liked the 218 then I HAD to play the AS227!! Played one at Robert Lowreys in Toronto. It was very nearby a Schimmel of similar demensions: no comparison (the Schimmel was WAY better in every aspect). The Brodmann was "nice" even, perhaps, "very nice," but it didn't turn my crank, so to speak. Mainly the tone: OK but no great shakes; certainly no better than a Kawai semi-grand.

Lowrey doesn't carry Hailun, unfortunately. But I immediately charged up to Grandt's Piano House and replayed the 218, and again compared it to the Steinway B's and the Steingraeber Concert Grand that were beside it. All I can say is that it held up without any difficulty against these excellent German pianos. No Schimmels in the room, unfortunately. And no Brodmanns.

But I couldn't fail but notice that while the Hailun 218 compared VERY favourably with the Steinways that were beside it, the Brodmann AS227 (much more expensive instrument, btw) did not hold up at all well against the Schimmels!

Maybe a poorly tuned and regulated 227? Who knows?

JG

syxbit,

In the past, Hailuns were clearly less needing of any type of service issues.

Presently, Brodmann quality control has pretty much peaked so that the brands are about the same now technically both in factory preparation and out in the field regarding service issues after several months. Prepwork is also limited to finer detailing versus anything significant.

Cosmetically - Brodmann has the advantage, having made noticeable improvements in the last few years as has Hailun but the Brodmanns are more perfect now.

I have sold Brodmanns for just over 4 years and Hailuns almost 4 years.

Interesting. So Ms Cohen had mixed views of the Brodmann, which raises an interesting question that I think IS germaine to the topic:

If y'all are trying to label the best Chinese grands, why would the review be of a PE187 when, presumably, an AS187 should be far better? So let's address the question here, since I'm guessing you've played both, Norbert (or anyone else who has):

What's your opinion about the relative differences between a PE187 and the vastly more expensive AS187?

Well, the first thing you notice when playing the AS 187 is that German hands were definitely at work here: extremely precise [Renner action] with similar control like most other German piano I played.

Too new to come to a true conclusion.

Played on one single specimen....

Norbert

This brings some thoughts to bear. Every grand piano benefits, sometimes tremendously, from finishing work at the end of production. If a company has the staff, the skill, the time, and the inclination, they can improve the performance of a given piano dramatically.

If a piano is properly engineered and production is well controlled, which several Chinese products are, than prep. can truly be the separation point.

I do not know what Brodmann does, but the New Cunningham goes through a rigorous prep. As a result, it has recently been chosen by The Director of Musical Studies at The Curtis Institute, Jonathan Coopersmith, as his personal piano here in Philadelphia. (His family also owns a Steinway and a Bosendorfer)

By the way, earlier in this thread someone referred to the Cunningham as a "house brand". I understand that comment because that is how the project was born. However, we have also gained recognition by having several well established industry professionals request to become dealers. This is happening naturally and organically, which is just the way I like it.

Anyway, I do not think "house brand" is an accurate description anymore.

My 2 cents,

If indeed the 'Cunnigham Piano' is no longer a 'house brand' it could be interesting for prospecting US customers - those not living near Philadelphia - to know from which dealers in what area they can buy a Cunningham.

schwammerl.

I do appreciate the very helpful information you provided.



If he really wants to know "the best" single factory then it's a question with so many answers as to stretch the meaning of "valid question". There's no objective way to rank pianos coming from various factories. So trying to find "the best" admits any number of answers, none of which can be the most "valid".

You'll get quotes from Larry Fine's rankings. That's a valid answer.

You'll get people naming the only Chinese piano they've ever purchased as "the best".

You'll get dealers pitching their particular Chinese brands as "the best".

At any rate, I see the thread has now (predictably) descended into a free-for-all among the last category of answers. I was unwise to chip in with my meagre perspective and am happy to leave it to our customary litany of "Mine's Bigger" claims by the usual suspects. Lesson learned.

Here in the UK a very well respected dealer Chris Venables has an 'in house' brand the Venables and Son, they are made to their own spec by I suspect Hailun (may be wrong) They do a range of Verticals and Grands look and sound very good (photos and Video):

As with all Chinese pianos it is all in the prep!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2HyoNyFab8&context=C33b3594ADOEgsToPDskJ9ahdNJjU4a4uleJzW6mAx

http://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/venables-and-son-grand-pianos.htm

I have to respect those who comment on pianos they sell and not the ones they don't.

How can anyone possibly answer a question about what is the "best" anything without first defining what "best" means for purposes of the question?

If the definition (if any) includes any subjective elements, like tone, touch, etc., how can there ever be any verifiable, objective, or conclusive response to the question in any event?

It seems to me that debate over who makes the best anything at all is utterly frivolous without first deciding what "best" means. It may well be frivolous after "best" has been defined as well, because the answer will often depend upon individual taste or anecdotal experience. To the extent that "best" is defined to include only objectively verifiable factors (whatever they would be), something it is hard to imagine in the piano world, the debate may well involve information that proves to be both boring and unhelpful in the customer's election of a piano, because such selection inevitably and appropriately depends upon how the individual piano sounds and feels to the prospective purchaser (and what it costs). To the extent that "best" depends upon factors that are subjective, at least to some extent, the debate is simply about matters of taste, and will require the popcorn an earlier poster indicated he or she was preparing.

At least that is what I think.

Rank Piano Amateur, I think that is a good way to conclude this debate.

Hint hint.

I didn't want to be too specific - tone, touch etc can all depend on how well the piano is prepped, however build quality is a different thing. Rightly or wrongly I put them all under the same umbrella. I will try to be more specific the next time.

Rank Piano Amateur's comment "How can anyone possibly answer a question about what is the "best" anything without first defining what "best" means for purposes of the question?"

Many members have answered the question and they have been helpful.

THANK YOU to all.

It's true that this question will prompt a variety of answers from a variety of sources for a variety of reasons. What question here doesn't except for inquires about the age of a used piano? One almost always has to sift through what is written in the way of opinion and ignore a good part of it. However, the question (as opposed to answers) is not as difficult as you imagine.

Experienced retailers spend a lifetime around pianos. While their primary interest may be in selling what they have. and a good many of them focus on profiling their customer and trying to match their pianos praise with what they feel lies at the top of his budget reach, they do know what to look for in assessing the build quality of pianos, and for the most part their ears and fingers are fine-tuned enough to let them know if that build quality has paid off in musical potential. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but when it does they're aware of it.

There are telltale signs in construction that experienced retailers and techs will readily notice about quality of build. They don't have to examine every square inch of the piano to get a sense of the level of attention the maker has given to the product's build even though they need confirmation in how the piano plays and sounds to know if the results confirm the intent.

One retailer here posted:



That comment is worded in an intentionally vague way, but it scratches the surface at least.



What actually prompted me to respond to your post was your emphasis on the "trusted dealer" being the most important element of a piano choice. Even though it played a large role in your choice, for a variety of reasons which don't fit this thread topic, I disagree with placing such a high priority on "the trusted dealer". In my experience some retailers whose presentation does not inspire trust, and in fact might make a knowledgeable customer quite angry, sell some very fine pianos, while some retailers who make you want to adopt them as your uncle present some real losers with great humanity. I think the personal dynamic between customer and retailer is a dangerous way to choose a piano.

On a personal note, I liked the choice you made whatever motivated you to make it. I think you maximized your budget and should be quite pleased with the results.

At least I was specific enough to mention the brand name!

Thank you for your comments about how professionals seeing many pianos on a continual basis are able to evaluate and choose accordingly.

I evaluate first, then sell based on what I have found, as most probably do. But there have also been some pleasant surprises along the way.

In terms of "built quality" few would have problems saying that the Germans generally top the list.

In terms of "consistency", the Japanese have been outstanding.

But neither of these factors would make me choose a piano just by itself.

Many here reported having played dozens of "first class" grands that left them cold.

In reverse, an unexpected find may steal your heart.

This is really what's going on these days and the upcoming NAMM show will surely once again present many candidates from either group.

As a dealer I encourage people to do their comparative shopping within same or at least very similar price class.

If you are looking at $ 15,000 grands, look at all others at same price point. The moment you jump to $ 30,000, you would have to start all ove again. My whole writing here has centered around this basic, very important point.

If someone finds a piano at $15,000, a piano he likes as much or even better than another one at $ 30,000, it could be an opportunity worth exploring.

Or a piano for $ 30,000 preferable to one twice the price.

As this is what is increasingly happening in today's market, it presents threats to some but opportunities to others.

To me, this is what the ongoing discussion and sometimes fighting about certain pianos and makes here is all about.

Simply speaking, it's all about [defending..] market share and money.

Norbert

We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.

I guess we need Dan’s corollary here once again:

“The length of the post is diametrically opposed to the amount of useful information contained therein.”

Yes, useful dialogue usually begins to dry up after about page three.

Well I guess we will have to disagree;

This thread should have been maybe, at best, 3 postings.

Actually it could have been one…..

But no, instead we have 4 pages of yada yada about a lot of nothing…..

Question;

Who makes the best pianos in China?

Answer;

Some Chinese guy I would suspect.

Question;
Who makes the best pianos in China?

Answer ;( little more helpful here)

The best thing to do is for you as the purchaser, to go and play a variety of instruments manufactured in that region of the world. Decide on which one you like to play the best (action/touch/responsiveness) and which one you would like to listen to the best (tone/timbre/projection.)

That, in your opinion as the purchaser, is the best piano coming from China. What others think of your choice is a moot point unless you live your life by popularity polls…..

Dan.

I disagree with you. Because in this case I agree with you! HA!

Silverwood Pianos you have posted your fair share of Yada Yada on this forum too!

Sorry for posing the question

DO NOT APOLOGIZE!

It is interesting how responses have tended to interpret your question as something that it doesn't appear to be and even tell you what the question should be.

I've assumed that you see the piano build, both the ingredients and the execution, as a key to longevity -- that you want a piano that can maintain its level of performance over many years while getting three hours a day of serious play and receiving normal maintenance.

I'm also assuming that you can judge tone and touch well enough for yourself, and that you do not need such expensive ingredients as tonewood from the tallest shaded spruce in the Val di Fienne or lightning-fast key repetition --- just solid performance over the long haul.

Finally, I'm assuming that you ask because, other than a few heavy-user data points like joe80, there's not that much to go on other than predictions based on the factory's attention to build.

Correct?

I think the OP was asking for our personal opinions as which is the best Chinese Manufacturer shipping to the US. The greater variable is the constant improvements the Chinese Manufacturer's are achieving. Our opinions will change with these improvements.

25yrs ago Pearl River consoles wouldn't tune or stay in tune and the actions simply didn't work. We were asking ourselves, "Why did they send these to us?".

The horse race is still on and there's still time to place your bets.

Well, shipped to the UK really, but yeah. He's interested in export models. There's still plenty of stuff available inside China that wouldn't satisfy the export market.



Yes, but one can wait forever for the endless parade of latests and greatets. He's sizing up his options now.



Your reaction was very polite.

Ther's a shop in the LA area that imported some stencil studio verticals with pine soungboards from an obscure Chiense factory. Many were warped on delivery. They couldn't send them back. They tried to sell them at around $2500, then $2ooo, then still less. The shop is out of business.



Problem is -- there's no Daily Racing Form and no two-dollar window. Need more handicappers with specific knowledge to come out of the woodwork.

Of the three of which I'm most familiar, Pearl River, Toyama/Parsons(Brodmann) and Hailun there is now little difference in the build quality, it's more down to size, design and tone and which component mix turns the customer on the most. Add, from the dealer's perspective, degree of backup from the supplier, such as spare parts and supply continuity.

Pearl River benefited greatly in terms of mass production techniques from the joint venture with Yamaha from 1995 (although no longer any connection) so their pianos are clean, well presented and well finished. The new Ritmullers add spice to the otherwise neutral tone of their predecessors.

Toyama/Parsons(Brodmann)- most of their pianos have great similarities to either Boston (PE162) or Steinway models - O (CE175), A (PE187) and B (PE212) and C (PE228). A definite 'trademark' sound throughout the range (although not necessarily Brodmann's trademark) Well finished and clean, actions out-of-the-box are a little too easy for some.

Hailun have an interesting product mix as they use a variety of designers, so there is no 'trademark' sound here, so be prepared for quite different tones from one model to the next. The 151, 168 and 180 designed by their Chinese engineer (brilliant IMHO), the 162 and 178 Austrian designed, the 198 American and the 218 French.

So which are best to me? Giving a short list of 2 in each range, with each alternative being tonally quite different to the other. Baby - the new small Rit R8 or the Hailun 151. Mid range - the new Hailun 168 and Brodmann 162, intermediate - Hailun 180 and Brodmann 187 and long - Brodmann 212 or Hailun 218.

Durability and build quality? - compare these pics. (For reference, Germany's piano is 'high end'.)

China:


Germany:


China


Germany:


China:


Germany:

Chris,

I love my Chinese produced grand, but in posting pictures could I also find some build quality the other way around? I think by choosing just a few items (pictures) you are inferring that all high end Germany pianos have flaws and that "lower end" Chinese made pianos do not.

Jonathan

I love reading these posts. Of course, there are generalizations to be made. Unless you are a tech that has serviced every Brodmann to ever leave their factory, any assessment of Brodmann is a generalization (same goes for Hailun, Pearl River etc..)
All you can do as a consumer is assess the exact piano we are going to buy.
I liked the Brodmann 187 I played in the store (much more than the Hailun 178), and so I bought it. That doesn't necessarily mean that all Brodmann 187's are better than all Hailun 178s. After all, a dealer is going to need to generalize, as they're purchasing dozens of pianos. They need to know what quality to expect across all the instruments they purchase.
As a consumer, I can't generalize. I don't care if a Hailun in Florida is better than a Brodmann in California. I care about the exact piano I'm considering purchasing.

I still like reading about overall generalized quality though, it's just more applicable to dealers (or someone buying a piano on ebay )

Hi Jonathan

I'm sorry if that's the way it's been interpreted which was not my intention.

In plenty of my previous posts I have been at pains to stress the amount of prepping I consider is needed on many Chinese pianos then and still now. You'll also note in some of my other posts that I make no secret that I'm a big fan of German pianos such as Steinway, Ibach and Sauter. Chinese pianos are not perfect by any means and almost all pianos have flaws to some extent - if a tech looks hard enough. I just wanted to demonstrate in the pics that the build quality in the top end Chinese pianos is now pretty good.

While opinions may vary, it is refreshing to read an informed opinion that a Chinese engineer can do something notable without a Western designer standing by to change his diaper.

Chris,

Tenor's job description for a piano is three hours daily of serious playing. That's not quite institutional pounding, but it is more than average recreational use. Any particular reason you might discourage a customer from buying one of those mentioned and paying up for a Yamaha C series instead?

Not trying to complicate your life!

Now abou those photos,...........!

William

I'd feel more relaxed selling an equivalent sized C series than almost any other make, bar Steinway, to someone who's going to be pounding three hours a day. It's the usual trade-off. The C series may not (to some) sound as good as piano brand B but dealer out-calls are just about unheard of.

I wouldn't discourage the customer from buying brand B, but I would ensure he is made fully aware that most pianos, with heavy pounding, will need annual servicing and occasional tech visits to tweak the odd component now and then (not just tuning). Having said that, we have Chinese grands in music schools and churches holding up to a pounding far better than I anticipated and we have repeat orders. So it's not just the prep, it's the after service work which has to be considered too.

Now, who'd like to see some more pics?

But are service calls more or about the same for chinese pianos as they are for Yamaha C series? Really, in my view durability and build quality are different. Durability is how it stande up to use. Build quality incorporAtes that, but also includes the other details in manufacturing, such as workmanship and attantion to detail.



Are there any pianos that don't need (or should not get) annual servicing and maintenance? But the fact that they are holding up is demonstrating their durability. Their workmanship, from the couple of pics, seem pretty good also. But do they sound better than the high end german brand? We don't know. You will have to play them (chinese grand pianos) and only that way will you know which is the best chinese grand piano. And it is only your opinion, others will differ.

And could we see pics... Of the fallboard? (just kidding)

Chris - thanks.

I really didn't interpret your photos that way - just trying to get the point across that a few individual pictures might not be representative of the full range.

I guess I have been kind of lucky with my shopping experiences - the first grand I purchased was from Indonesia after build qualities were stable. Now in my recent purchase, the Chinese grand I purchased seems to be an excellent example of quality. I guess I missed the bad quality of both countries.

Jonathan

Chris,

I appreciate the response. I would think it's useful for Tenor as well. I asked about"anything particular" that would make you discourage a heavy user from buying one of the pianos mentioned because I wanted to separate dealer prep work, however tedious and irksome, done to replace missing post-production work at the factory, from things noticed that cannot be easily remedied after production -- careless bellywork, poor stringing, suspect pinblock, bad action geometry, cheap hammer felt that doesn't hold its shape well, etc.

When I read about laborious dealer prep, I assume only tightening, freeing up, centering, aligning, etc. -- nothing radical, nothing swapped out.

From your comments, I'd say you've given pretty high marks to the Chinese grands you are most familiar with, even without factoring in price, and even without your stunning visual evidence.

A little off-topic

The usual trade-off is not a tradeoff for me. As a player, I've always been attracted to the vitality of Yamaha's percussive attack. As a listener (most often advanced student recitals), I've often found it tiresome. Paradoxically, as a player I am not attracted to pianos that are instantly pretty with warm tone coloration. I usually find them tiresome to play, if not sooner, then later.. But I have no problem listening to someone else playing those sorts of pianos. If that makes me a head-case, no problem. I've yet to hear the Chinese grand that can snap off the vitality of a Yamaha C3 through C7, but admittedly, I have little experience with the big boys from Brodmann and Hailun, so maybe I'll be in for a surprise if and when.

The pix

Let's just that these particular close-up shots would probably not be featured in a German piano-maker's printed or on-line catalogue.

You got it all right!!!! Honestly, that's the best description on the difference between listening to a particular type of sound and playing the piano that differs. Thank you very much!

Try the "big boys"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoqOUAdEs10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOUU5b6eCjY

Norbert

William, and to Rotom too:

Of the top end Chinese pianos I've worked on, I'd answer your points as follows -

Careless belly work - No. Most of the grands I recommended have Strunz anyway, those with Austrian tonewood are very well often even better finished. Ribs are well fitted.

Poor stringing - ocassionally, but our dealer prep takes care of that

Suspect pinblock - No. As an observation, pin tightness is just right and tuning stability is remarkable.

Bad action geometry - On the grands, no. (On some uprights yes, but there are plenty of other models to take their place)

Cheap hammer felt - Quite the reverse. Most of the pianos I mentioned have the best Abel heads, those that don't have premium German felt FFW/AA

Laborious dealer prep - These pianos need time to settle and acclimatise to their new conditions, so the longer it's on its legs in a showroom/living room environment before prep then the less attention it will need thereafter. Action centres are generally good. The time consuming work is string levelling and spacing, hammer shaping, hammer/string mating, and alignment, hammer toning, key levelling and general regulation. (With the factory gate price on the smaller models being less than what a top tech would charge a high end customer for a restring and action rebuild I can't complain about the out-of-the-box condition).

Durability - it does go hand in hand with build and component quality which I've already demonstrated.

Head-case problem: There aren't many pianos with the 'percussive attack' given by a new C3-C7. Your catch-22 situation of listener/player perspectives and also the problem of too much power in a living room have been raised plenty of times - remember 'old fingers?' C3-C7 are ideal in a small concert hall. In tenor70's case, where I assume the piano is going in his home and also being used for accompaniment then as an alternative to Chinese a new C2 may be the answer, for you too.

that makes me think "oh great..."

Thank you! It's very interesting to actually see the list of those above things. And I'm happy for those who do own chinese pianos that they are holding up well and sounding good too!

-

I liked the Brodmann 212 nice! mellow, good in a home setting..the 187 seemed bright not harsh.. has a sparkling tone.. I prefer mellow round sound, the Hailun sound didn't appeal to my taste.. the more I looked at the video of the Broadmann 212 its hard to believe that's a 7ft piano it looks shorter? its nice either way.. and the copper plated harp is a nice change instead of gold

Norbert,

You are correct. When the opportunity exists, I'll do that. In the meantime I'll qualify any statement of opinion as I've done here.

I'm curious about the V 180 as well (when commoners like me have a chance to actually see and play one, and they are not reserved for a handful of selected placements in the four corners of the globe or prepped to the nines to function as trade show phenoms. )

Youtubes are fun, and if you have a player's familiarity with the material being played, they can reveal a bit. But you neve know if it clicks for you until you sit in front of it, and you never know about the post-processing of the sound either. So I try to restrain from reading too much into them -- one way or the other.

AND THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjmgO6Q5nb0

Chris, thanks for posting the pictures and additional info.

Since this is "Masters opinion class 101" on who makes the best.

Now after all that.....

Who makes the worst chinese pianos? And why?

You'd have to do some serious legwork inside China to find which factory stooped the lowest in its domestic product in terms of crude workmanship and materials.

Somehow I don't think that's what the OP here was looking for, McBain, but if that's where you want the question to go, why don't you indulge the masses here with your take.

You've dabbled in some Chinese lines at Carnes without really adopting any. Which stand out in your memory (for the wrong reasons)?

I have never played any of the following. I have no personal opinion. Some dealers may SCREAM at anyone's honest attempt to answer your question.

That said, the respected Larry Fine says that the absolutely worst of the worst of the NEW pianos are the following:

Altenburg
Everett verticals
Falcone
Geo. Steck
Hardman, Peck & Co.
Hobart M. Cable
Suzuki
Wyman

Dealers may tell us how wonderful these pianos are. Maybe. The most unreliable new car that can be purchased in 2012 is way more reliable than the most reliable car was 60 years ago. Again, I've never played 'em. But they are, none the less, according to that noted respected author, the absolute worst new pianos that one can purchase in the U.S.

Why? I'll leave that to the experts. While no doubt you'll note that none of these pianos is currently made in Germany, Japan, or the U.S., things can and do, we'll be reminded by the dealers, change.

I have to say that if The "Big Boys" demos were my guide, the only piano I'd look at--or touch with a ten-foot-pole--would be the Brodmann 212 played by Nick Salwey.

Fact is, THAT piano is beautifully recorded, the other Brodmann and Hailun 218 are horribly recorded and do, indeed, as a result sound absolutely unlistenable!

jivemutha - Larry never called anything worst of the worst. Or bad or any of the things you said, he said. You've completely taken his words out of context and are incorrectly summarizing his ratings, you need to read what he says about them. I had a nice discussion with Larry at NAMM on this subject. He explains his ratings in piano buyer and on his blog. I encourage all of you to read his blog article on ratings. To paraphrase what he says and what he told me personally on Friday. While there were once shoddy pianos built, that is not the case today and the lines that separate brands are blurred and separated by hairs if even that.

Larry FIne's discussion on ratings.

Larry is a very down to earth guy who told me it embarrasses him the way some people interpret his book as the absolute "word of god". He never intended it that way. He intends it as a guide to the world of pianos and all of us in the business appreciate him for what he does. He can not possibly see every piano model made. Many piano lines can vary in their design and quality from model to model, many of those inconsistencies are not addressed in the book or in the on line guide. Personally I have issues within every category of the ratings with both pianos I represent and piano I don't represent. Some of those issue I have with Piano Buyer I've voiced here in the past particularly the "special" category for Japanese pianos that raise them above the high level Korean counterparts where they were all grouped for many years. I still respect him and his opinion as we are all entitled to one. Larry has this to say in the current issue of Piano Buyer prior to the ratings and I quote, "Any such rating system is obviously not scientific but subjective, the product of my contacts with dozens of piano technicians, dealers, and other industry personnel, as well as my more than thirty years of involvement with the piano industry. My sense is that most knowledgeable people in the industry would agree in broad terms with this comparison, though many will disagree with me — and with each other — about the details."

One thing that irked me on a recent post here in PW was a discussion of Hardman Peck pianos with someone talking about coming into a store and finding one that was bad. Maybe that particular piano was not set up. Maybe it was an older model. Any piano on a dealers floor can be bad if the dealer didn't do his job. This goes for a Fazioli or a Steinway as well. My experience with Hardman Pianos is very different from the person who came by one bad one. I unbox them daily and have seen hundreds of them coming out of the box needing only tuning and voicing. When they're done they're quite nice and can compete in every way with many costlier "higher rated pianos".
In regard to Hardman The Piano Buyer and Piano Book doesn't take into account these pianos come out of a factory that's been in joint venture with Kawai Japan and features models that are sold in Asia with the Kawai name on the front instead of Hardman.

Those of us who have sold pianos all of our lives can look at something and instantly know who made it regardless of the name on the front. When we got our first Hardman in a few years ago I had a friend drop into the store who has spent the last 18 years on the road doing Kawai college sale events. He knows what a Kawai looks like. I had him come over to a Hardman and I covered the name with my hand and asked him to tell me what the piano was. I lifted the lid and he immediately said this is a Kawai. I then removed my hand and he said, "what's going on here, what is this." While I was visiting the Shanghai Music Show this past October I snapped pictures of some of the models we sell here here as Hardman and they sell in Asia as Kawai. Here is one on their website that looks alot like a K8 and says on a medallion on the left cheek block, 'designed by Kawai" on the version sold in Asia.

Hardman 132


My point is this, there is no worst or worst of worst out there. To all of those looking for a piano who read the Larry Fine Piano Buyer, use it as one good, but subjective source of information. Also trust your own ears, your own hands and your own eyes because Larry's opinion is his opinion and you are entitled to your opinion too which you should trust. Piano Buyer is not Consumer Reports, it is not JD Powers, it is a for profit business and and must be viewed in that light.

To those that paraphrase the Larry Fine Piano Buyer, do it accurately and remember that Larry himself does not want what he said to be considered absolute or the last word as some here present it.

Who makes the best ice cream in NY City?

Glenn,

Thanks for your input here.

I have closely followed Larry's book since it was first published in the 1980's.

It was a never seen before, truth telling guide about our industry. At that time, there were many product offerings and gimmicks relating to poor quality found in pianos that he was able to expose.

Currently, this would not be the case. Rather, I think Larry could be shouting from the rooftops some of the incredible things that have happened to this industry, especially given the particular span of time his publication has covered. But the publication is more muted now.

I think that given the flip side to what is happening today, more praise could be given to some of the up and coming brands although that would not maintain the distance that the industry perceives or wants to perceive or wants shoppers to perceive between certain makes.

The example you provided where some of the Japanese pianos were placed into a new category from one which they had previously shared with Korean pianos is an indication of how there is a balancing act going on in providing a publication which may not necessarily reflect what is actually happening in the industry.

As Fine himself has stated, the paradigm shift which is occurring now makes it harder to advise piano shoppers.

Given these developments and since you attended NAMM this year, what is your take on the subject of this thread?

That might have been me. I went to a small shop in the San Gabriel Valley and they had three new Hardmans. All three needed work. Out of tune and regulation each one.

Before that, in another small shop in Pasadena I tried a 5 foot Hardman that was too good to be true. While all the other budget small grands had a metallic tone, this Hardman had a deep, rich sound and an excellent touch. I'm not much of a pianist and have to work to get proper dynamics, especially pp and such. This Hardman seemed to know what I was thinking.

It was the cheapest priced piano there, but the best of the lot I looked at. IMHO, it was as good as the used Bechstein that was there.

Too good to be true?

I was being sarcastic to Silverwood when I apologised for posting the question. And yes you are correct!

As was I when I suggested that McBain answer his own question when he turned your question completely upside down to get opinions on the worst piano made in China. Sarcasm might be a fitting response as well to a retailer who links to paid endorsements of Brodmann in promotional youtube videos at NAMM Lounge 88 as proof of the pudding.

There is some truth in Treibetz's comment that Fine ratings are intended as a rough guide and not an ironclad scheme of relative quality. The problem is that while Mr. fine indicates as much, he does in fact segment pianos into more categories than a rough guide would usually attempt.

Since dealers are pointing to the big boys of the breed, it might be useful for you to post how big a grand you will consider. Other than that, I don't think you'll get much of substance beyond what Chris was willing to contribute.

The Brodmann featured was an 'Artist Series' European made no Chinese.

Turandot said

"Since dealers are pointing to the big boys of the breed, it might be useful for you to post how big a grand you will consider. Other than that, I don't think you'll get much of substance beyond what Chris was willing to contribute"

6' to at a push 7'

Chinese would be very good at pianos where can i get a good piano in Beijing

I Personally Own a Pearl River UP115M for 3 years now and till date it hasn't given me any problems.To the best of my knowledge Pearl River is on of the largest manufacturers in China also making a few pianos of the Steinway Essex Line in addition they also own Ritmuller which I believe is a slightly premium line,All in All I'm pretty happy with Pearl River

It's nice to see that discussions can go on here quite nicely without my own 'jaded' input.

It's quite obvious that we live in a vastly different world today: the "made in China" is obviously part of all of this.

To be frank: none of this feels good, it certainly does not give us the feeling of the more familiar world order we knew before, even fewer know how to get rid of it all...

But let's not forget that "made in China" is only part of much larger events whereby outsourcing of our industries, technology transfer [and theft thereof..] joint ventures within a global economy plus clever survival strategies, often smartly hidden from public view, appear to have become the order of the day.

Everybody knows we have long lost control of what's going on out there nor do we fully understand things - by trying to establish "who makes best or worst in China" it seems we are trying to re-establish some order of presumably known categories.

Outside of banning anything coming from or having to do with China, one might as well ask what makes sense to buy in today's world at all - regardless where it happens to be made

For those wishing to own a 100% American made piano for example, there are just few.

Even among the Euros things have become diffuse - it's not uncommon to have pianos build in some country there, but then pre-manufacture or fit them later with 100% Chinese parts.

Outside few remaining pure breds,it has long become a world of "diverse manufacturing" coupled with "enhanced image retention skills".

So, why not going back to the table and ask "what is the best piano for me" - especially at any price point?

Regardless of real or presumed "origin of manufacture".

Norbert

Of course there's a worst, even if that worst is great. Worst is a relative term--not an absolute term. Among sports cars costing over $100,000, all may be absolutely terrific, but there's likely to be one less good than all the others. By definition, that makes it "the worst." The pianos I listed as "worst" to be very explicit here, were those pianos in the VERY lowest of all Fine's categories and subcategories. I then went on to say that the most unreliable car these days is way more reliable than the most reliable car from decades ago. In other words, I'm in no way ruling out that these Chinese pianos in Fine's lowest category may be just fine. Indeed, everyone seems to agree that they're remarkably better than they were even just a few years ago and I'm not debating that. (Since I wrote my entry, however, I have finally played one--a George Steck. It was indeed, to my ear, the worst sounding new piano I've recently played. It wasn't awful. But all the others have been better.)

As Mr. Fine himself repeatedly says, his categories are not gospel. That said, if you know of any better rating system I'd like to hear it. In any case, to reiterate and to be quite specific, compared to the list I labeled "worst" every single other piano Mr. Fine categorizes, he rates higher than that particular list. If you know of a piano that there is reason to believe is worse than those on that list, I'm all ears-- I mean that.

I understand that using the word "worst" can put a spin on things that can be misread as necessarily bad. That said, however, I'm not intending to do any spinning. While all major leage ball players are great athletes, there are always teams that in any given year lose more games than the other teams. That makes those great athletes technically, as a team, "the worst."

Jiv,

The question posed by Mr. McBain (that you kindly tried to answer for him by referencing Fine) was not asked seriously. Mr. McBain is not a Chinese piano enthusiast. Nor is Tenor attempting to find the worst piano he can buy.

Despite your gallant attempt to soften the impact of the term "worst", it is one of the strongest pejoratives imaginable, and is a term avoided at all costs by Mr. Fine.

The category of pianos that you listed here is the category of pianos with the lowest asking prices centimeter for centimeter of any pianos exported to the US. As such, they fall into step with Mr. Fine's other categories which also mix and match pianos of similar price ranges.

This category is made up of the Chinese pianos without the Euro sizzle, pianos invariably stocked by dealers who just want something to prevent the customer with the crimped budget from walking out the door. As such, few dealers take the time and trouble to augment the factory's meager efforts to prep these pianos post-assembly. Stocking dealers can live with that meager effort because better factory prep costs money and they don't want to spend that money. They want a margin that justifies the space these undesirables take up on the floor. The makers can live with being herded into the lowest Fine category because their pianos cost the least. In case you hadn't noticed, the map of the market closely parallels asking prices. Many recreational players can accept the trade-off as well, especially if they're not Horowitz, don't practice Liszt four hours a day, and don't check in on PW daily to be informed that their piano is the worst.

I don't know when the last time was that Mr. Fin toured Chinese piano factories; perhaps Steve Cohen would know,but I do know that Glenn Treibetz is not SCREAMING and does go to the bother of shopping Chinese pianos in China in person and looks for products that in his opinion give good bang for the buck. As a result, Glenn's got a lot of the cheapos. Maybe he specializes in frugal shoppers.

My point here is that a Hardman 5'7" grand sold at 16k MSRP is a worse piano that the same Hardman grand at 8k because of the stiffer competition it must face. And BTW, a Hardman 5'7" grand at 8k would be doable with only a 20% discount from Fine's SMP. Then too, the same Hardman 5'7" grand at 75k would be much worse than a Bösendorfer 170 at 75k or a Seiler Viruoso 168 at 75k. In fact, it would be the worst piano of the three!

I don't know if Glenn stays up all night prepping his budget brands, but I can relate a personal story.

About 5 years ago, I came across two identical new 5'7" Harmdman grands on a dealer's floor. (not Glenn) The one sounded bad and played lumpy. I thought the other was splendid all around. The dealer told me that his Chinese intern tech was working on the one in her spare time, but hadn't touched the other. The dealer's opinion was that despite her efforts, they were both junk. and that no tech could make a silk purse from a sow's ear. He moved artfully to the next piano, a longer new August Förster grand, and encouraged me to play it. I didn't tell him, but everything above the bass seemed like water soup to me, To him it was splendid. So it goes with pianos, and I'm not convinced about the impossibility of the silk purse from the sow's ear if the purse is treated well.

Indeed... the Brodmann I heard online sounded spectacular. The Hailun 218, which I own, sounds... well... no offence ... but very poorly recorded.

Here's my latest attempt at capturing something of the 218 sound:

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

I adore the instrument, actually... the Hailun 218 ... as I've said elsewhere here!

JG

Here's my own recording of the 218, using 2 AKG mics:

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

My point is this, there is no worst or worst of worst out there. To all of those looking for a piano who read the Larry Fine Piano Buyer, use it as one good, but subjective source of information. Also trust your own ears, your own hands and your own eyes because Larry's opinion is his opinion and you are entitled to your opinion too which you should trust. Piano Buyer is not Consumer Reports, it is not JD Powers, it is a for profit business and and must be viewed in that light.

Dead on true... Fine captures the landscape... the individual trees, then, need to be assessed individually.... so try not to buy a piano sight unseen!!!!

JG

Not really fair or true IMO. Any book dealing with piano rankings must be somewhat subjective, so that should not a criticism. Of all the sources of opinion about pianos, The Piano Buyer is usually/often considered the most fair and objective. And although Larry Fine has the final say on the rankings, etc., he uses extensive input from other sources to make the rankings. "Larry's opinion" makes it sound more like there isn't input.

I think the distinction between for profit and not for profit is misleading. I don't claim to understand much about not for profit organizations, but doesn't Consumer Reports want to sell as many magazines as possible and won't some salaries go up if the number of magazines sold increases?

Although it is very good advice to trust one's own ears and fingers, it is also true that many piano buyers do not or don't want to or perhaps should not just trust their own ears and fingers either because of their piano playing skills or lack of familiarity with pianos. Most techs play more grands in a week than amateur pianists might play in a year or even a lifetime.