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#1824319 - 01/13/12 06:42 PM Hire a photographer?
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
I have a friend who is trying to eke out a living as a photographer. She has asked to be hired to do the group photo for recitals.

I could ask parents by email if this is a service they are interested in...see if many are interested in ordering a photo from the photographer. Or I could hire the photographer one time and see how it goes, and a 5x7 photo for each family would be my gift to them.

I don't think I want to collect money or charge $15 for recitals (using the fee to pay photographer).

My guess is that parent's are happy with their snapshots, but if they see a professional photo, they'll be impressed.

My fear is that any problem with the photographer would reflect badly on me. Plus she may take a long time getting a good photo, and I don't know if it's too much to ask of the kids to pose. And I wonder how parents would feel if they were asked to go to the reception area while the group photo is being taken. (Usually 10-15 parent line up snapping group photos and it's chaos.)

Any experience with this or suggestions?

The truth is that I wouldn't fool with it, but feel I want to help a friend who is having a difficult time financially. OTOH, it would be nice to have a professional photo. I could put professional recital photos up in my studio. At present I keep one framed photo, and I replace the photo every 6 months with a snapshot from the most current recital.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

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#1824379 - 01/13/12 07:58 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
trhmusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Texas
If I was in your situation, I might consider the option of hiring the photographer and making the gift of the 5x7 to each family, depending on the cost. But I would make sure the students families know this is a one time or trial situation. You don't want to set a precedent for future recitals that will be hard to keep up with. And it may help keep some of the blame off you if the experience is negative. The size of your studio may be a deciding factor as well, if you don't have a large studio the professional photographer may be completely unnecessary.

I understand you wanting to help your friend though. Maybe you could check with your friend to see if they might be interested in coming to the recital and offering things like family portraits, senior photos, etc.. afterward. You could let the students families know ahead of time, since most of them will be dressed nicer and some may even have extended family members coming, it might be something they would be interested in.

Even without a professional photographer, I usually have someone designated ahead of time to take the group photo and I email it to the families afterward. This prevents the chaotic situation where you have 30 cameras going off at once. I allow parents to take as many pictures as they want with their own child after the recital and group photo.

This is just my humble opinion! If you end up going with the professional let us know how it goes!
_________________________
Tracy Hall
Piano Teacher
http://www.trhmusic.org
"Bringing the joy of music to the next generation"

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#1824390 - 01/13/12 08:35 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3789
Your photographer friend may want to make use of Zenfolio, which is a photo sharing site. Individual and group photos from the recital can be taken and uploaded to Zenfolio. Parents can go to the link, and download, print, or get photo mugs, mouse pads, key chains, etc. The photographer decides what to charge for each service. Zenfolio handles the money, printing, shipping, etc.

This takes you, the teacher out of the equation.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1824418 - 01/13/12 09:50 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
MomOfBeginners Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 110
Loc: California, USA
Opinion from me as a selfish parent: I would be mildly interested in a posed group photo. I would take more interest, and probably be more willing to shell out money, for a professional action shot of my child in the recital - or interacting with the teacher, or interacting with duet partners, etc. I'm talking about those shots that really capture the moment, using very nice lenses that I can't take myself. If there were those action shots, I would probably pay a little more to get a group shot. But a group shot alone doesn't impress me that much.
_________________________
Mom of Two Girls Who Used to Be Beginners

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#1824615 - 01/14/12 09:12 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Thank you for all the advice! And for the PM advice.

MOM, I think that's a good point. Parents want individual photos. My question now is whether to allow my friend to shoot photos DURING the performances.

Is that too distracting? The pro's camera definitely makes a camera clicking sound with each shot. A few parents record their kid using handheld video camera, but I've never noticed any distracting sound from it. (They do this even though they will receive a DVD of the recital in a few weeks...a service the piano store provides.)

I think my friend would have a better chance for income if I let her get individual photos. They could either be during the performance. Or I could start the recital a little earlier than planned to allow more time for the reception, during which kids could get photographed at the piano.

Bob, thanks for the info. My friend has a service that sounds similar to Zenfolio. You get a password and go to the site and can place orders. The site handles money, shipping, printing. But still I'll pass on the info and check it out myself out of curiosity.

So far I plan to NOT hire her myself, but give her the opportunity to photograph my students. I'll suggest she create a flier that I can hand out to parents to let them know she will be on site to take individual and group photos. The parents would deal directly with the photographer. I'll suggest that she put together a portfolio of photos she's taken that I can have available for parents to look at so they can see that they would be paying for a professional service. (Thanks Susan for the PM advice.)

trh, even with one parent agreeing to take a photo to share with everyone, I end up with the chaos of 10 or more parents clicking cameras. But I am in agreement. I'd like to get this situation under control whether it's with the professional or ONE designated parent. Yet I am afraid of offending someone. I could send an email about the issue ahead of time, and ask for parent feedback or any concerns they may have...so it is not a shock to anyone. Or discover if someone REALLY objects, and decide whether it's worth restricting their photo snapping.

The other problem that may occur is if the pro takes a long time with individual photos to the point that our reserved time ends and some kids didn't get a chance for a photo op who wanted it. Or takes so long with group photo that kids don't have time to socialize and have snacks. I have found that photo sessions are a LOT of work for the photographer AND the one/s being photographed.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

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#1824681 - 01/14/12 10:49 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
lovefamilypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 45
Loc: Rexburg, Idaho
How are your photos on your website? You could have her take studio shots and artistic shots for your website and help her out that way if you have that need.
_________________________
David Love
The Love Family Piano Studio
www.rexburgmusic.com

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#1824697 - 01/14/12 11:30 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Hi David. Thanks for that suggestion. So far I have no photos on my website. She offered to give me a free sitting saying she wants to try out some new equipment. I saw her yesterday and got some studio shots that would be good for my website. It will be a challenge for me to upload a photo, and not sure if the layout I'm using will allow it. But first I'll wait to get the proofs of finished photos (she does some photoshopping work).

By ordering photos I'll be supporting her. I offered to pay her for the session, but she declined. Yet I paid for a family photo session in November. It may be much simpler to just hire her for personal photos say once a year and perhaps give a photo session as a gift to a nephew with kids. (She was a bit desperate and pushy about taking photos at my recitals though.)

For me, recitals are stressful enough, and I like to simplify things as much as possible. So adding this to a recital feels a bit like a burden.

She has been self employed in another area, but has not had work in that field for a year. I don't know how she is holding onto her house. I was just more aware of her desperate situation. Yet a couple of photo sessions at my recitals will not provide much income. I don't know her well, but have known her for a long time. I'm not sure if she's depressed or what. Or what kind of financial plan she has. But she told me "I haven't had a job for a year". I'm guessing that she's being highly selective about work, but may need to be willing to work say in a restaurant.

So far I haven't given an answer. I'll wait to get the proofs. Hopefully upload photo to my website, and maybe use one as my FB profile pic. Order some prints. And maybe bow out of the whole thing.

Or survey parents to see if they're interested.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1824757 - 01/14/12 01:07 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Susan K. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 192
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
I was just more aware of her desperate situation. Yet a couple of photo sessions at my recitals will not provide much income.


If she is serious about photography as a business, then the photo sessions at your recital is more like "getting her name out there." She would pass out business cards to your parents and if they like her work, they may ask her to do family portraits or refer her for a wedding. Much of the photography business is word of mouth. So she would be doing your recital as a way to build business rather than to make money, if that makes sense.

I would bow out if you get a sense that she doesn't know what she is doing professionally. Professional photographers can set up as quickly as you need and break down equally as fast. They will often bring one or two assistants with them who will help with the set up and break down and to help organize the order of photos (getting the kids ready for their shoot and make sure that they're in line). Really, the best photographers take care of business so effortlessly that you shouldn't have to be thinking about it other than having the piano available for a certain period of time.

I'd also listen to your gut. If it's feeling like an added "burden." Then, you're probably picking something up that isn't going to be a plus to your recital.

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#1824783 - 01/14/12 01:30 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Thanks so much for your input Susan.

Whether she knows what she is doing professionally is something to think about. She has a great sense of artistic composition and being able to enhance photos. But there is more to professionalism. As you say, being able to set up and break down quickly. And I'm certain she would not have an assistant.

Part of the feeling of a burden comes in because of the poor impression she makes (overweight, a bit negative personality). Yet the final photos are really nice--she does have an artistic talent.

For now I'll wait until I hear from her. I'll think it all over. And listen to my gut feelings. It is possible that she could set up in a way that keeps her out of the video, but allows her to get good shots of performances (and minimize interaction with parents). That would solve time consuming photo sessions afterwards except for the one group shot. I could give her one chance, and if it doesn't work out, then not do it again.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825098 - 01/15/12 01:46 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
FYI, you can't upload photos of your students to your website without written permission from the parents. It's the law. You must have written record of consent.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1825142 - 01/15/12 05:57 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky


Part of the feeling of a burden comes in because of the poor impression she makes (overweight, a bit negative personality).....

......It is possible that she could set up in a way that keeps her out of the video


:-)

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#1825143 - 01/15/12 06:05 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Minniemay]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
FYI, you can't upload photos of your students to your website without written permission from the parents. It's the law. You must have written record of consent.


Is this actually a law where you are?

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#1825169 - 01/15/12 08:28 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Minniemay]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
FYI, you can't upload photos of your students to your website without written permission from the parents. It's the law. You must have written record of consent.


Thanks for the advice Minniemay. Currently I don't have a particularly good group photo, but if I do get one I'll ask for parent permission to post it on my website.

I want to respect student's privacy, so I'd get permission whether it were in the law or not. At this point I'll do well to get one photo of myself uploaded.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825199 - 01/15/12 09:36 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Part of the feeling of a burden comes in because of the poor impression she makes (overweight, a bit negative personality).


Good Lord -- is that how we should judge a photograher? By her weight?

I almost spat my coffee out when I read that.

My gut feeling is that in order to get a better shot than could be a achieved with a decent compact camera (which will probably be silent and unobtrustive), you'd need very invasive pro photography gear -- a noisy camera on a heavy tripod, and probably flash hoods. This stuff can be set up fairly quickly, but I'm not sure you'd want it in everyone's line of vision during the performance. You can get away with it at a rock concert because everything is loud and chaotic anyway. But in a small-ish venue, it's likely to be a bit overpowering.

Just my £0.02, of course.

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#1825215 - 01/15/12 09:58 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Yes, it's the law. Privacy rights of children are protected.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1825235 - 01/15/12 10:52 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: kevinb]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Part of the feeling of a burden comes in because of the poor impression she makes (overweight, a bit negative personality).


Good Lord -- is that how we should judge a photograher? By her weight?

I almost spat my coffee out when I read that.

My gut feeling is that in order to get a better shot than could be a achieved with a decent compact camera (which will probably be silent and unobtrustive), you'd need very invasive pro photography gear -- a noisy camera on a heavy tripod, and probably flash hoods. This stuff can be set up fairly quickly, but I'm not sure you'd want it in everyone's line of vision during the performance. You can get away with it at a rock concert because everything is loud and chaotic anyway. But in a small-ish venue, it's likely to be a bit overpowering.

Just my £0.02, of course.



blush

I should have left it at "poor impression" with no mention of weight. The poor impression is due to complexity that is far more than just being overweight. Obviously someone can be overweight and still make a great impression.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825244 - 01/15/12 11:06 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
I'm grateful for having gotten to discuss this with all of you. I think it is distracting to have a camera clicking during a performance. I think getting a professional group photo is likely to be much more time consuming than a group snapshot. I think individual photos after the recital will take up too much time. We just have 2 hours start to finish...time to set up, perform, group photo, refreshments and clean up.

I think I have nothing to gain, yet I have something to lose if I allow this person to take photos.

As much as a want to be a people pleaser (by doing what the photographer wants), in this case I am going to have to say no. Thanks for all the advice. It's been helpful while I sorted through what to do.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825247 - 01/15/12 11:10 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
How much does the photographer want for the session? The prints? Hi-resolution digital copies? Does she charge extra for touch-up work?

If she's a professional, it should work like this:

She'll quote a price for all those things, and you decide whether or not it's something your studio can afford. Then you decide if/how you need to pass that business expense on to your clients.

Also, the quality of the work is important. If she's taking pictures with a $200 camera and importing and printing from iPhoto, then that's hardly worth paying for. If she's using a professional DSLR, brings lighting equipment, has experience working with groups of children, and edits the photos and provides a means for clients to view/order copies online, then it may very well be worth the money.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1825288 - 01/15/12 12:24 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Kreisler, she doesn't know what to offer. She was all over the board with her suggestions. Initially telling me to add a couple of dollars to my tuition fee to cover the fees she'd charge. Student here. Gotta go.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825297 - 01/15/12 12:41 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
trublues Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/10
Posts: 73
Loc: New Hampshire
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Kreisler, she doesn't know what to offer. She was all over the board with her suggestions. Initially telling me to add a couple of dollars to my tuition fee to cover the fees she'd charge. Student here. Gotta go.


Doesn't sound like you want to add this kind of confusion to your life. But maybe to help her out would you consider having some photos taken of your students just for your studio? You could frame them - some group shots and solos - and let parents know. They could see the nice photos and you could help advertise for your friend that way.

I forget if you have studio classes or not - some photos taken during a group class could work. Might be fun for the students, too. But definitely not at a recital.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
_________________________
Independent Piano Teacher
Member MTNA, NHMTA

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#1825318 - 01/15/12 01:17 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Kreisler, she doesn't know what to offer. She was all over the board with her suggestions. Initially telling me to add a couple of dollars to my tuition fee to cover the fees she'd charge. Student here. Gotta go.


Well, she really has no business telling you how to pay for it. It's sounding more and more like she's not a professional photographer.

If you're in the mood to be her charity, then give her $50 to take pictures for your website and let her hand out business cards so parents can order prints. Otherwise, I'd steer clear.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1825330 - 01/15/12 01:38 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
Just what I was thinking--- studio shots, at the piano but outside the actual recital. They could be supplemented with ambient-light shots during the recital, with the camera, tripod, and photographer out of the way at a distance. The audience, by the way, is sometimes more worth photographing than the performers.

It can do no harm to have the parents' approval for posting to the website; even if it is not against the law in your state it shows the parents that you are careful for their kids' protection. If your site (or that area of it) is password-protected, so much the better although I'm sure you would post nothing unseemly, and I'm pretty sure the law does not envision rounding up and charging piano teachers.

Explain that it is a pilot program in your letter introducing the photographer, and let her take it from there with pricing, formats, photo finishing, etc. You might poll the parents before, to find out what they want, and after, to find out if they got it.

Personally, I do not much care for group photos. Unless your photographer can hang from the ceiling and shoot something a la Busby Berkley, the tiresome, time-consuming, nerve-wracking genre is hardly worth perpetuating.
_________________________
Clef


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#1825339 - 01/15/12 01:49 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Minniemay]
Stanny Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 1461
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Yes, it's the law. Privacy rights of children are protected.

Can you quote a source for this? I've done a bit of research and I don't see where that is the law in my state.

To be safe, I include a release in my studio policy which all parents sign...I say that photos will be used on my website unless the parent specifically asks that they not be posted.
_________________________
~Stanny~

Independent Music Teacher
Certified Piano Teacher, American College of Musicians
Member: MTNA, NGPT, ASMTA, NAMTA

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#1825361 - 01/15/12 02:20 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Thanks for the feedback. She's trying to be a professional photographer, but doesn't yet have much experience. Yes, I agree it's a degree of chaos I don't want at my recital.

Studio shots at the piano but outside the recital is a possibility. I could let her leave a portfolio here and flyers, then let parents know when she will be at the studio (at the Steinway dealer) to take individual photos.





Edited by Ann in Kentucky (01/15/12 05:41 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825369 - 01/15/12 02:33 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11166
Loc: Canada
Freelancing has two components: mastering your craft (music, photography, accounting etc.), and mastering the business end of things. Often our downfall is in the second. Might your friend benefit from contact with other professional photographs, a photographers' guild of some sort, or similar?

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#1825466 - 01/15/12 05:40 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2643
Loc: Kentucky
Yes.
_________________________
piano teacher

"She played upon her music box
a fancy air by chance,
And straightaway all her polka dots
began a lively dance."
-- Peter Newell

Top
#1825493 - 01/15/12 06:25 PM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Our local branch was advised by our state association's attorney. Take a cue from your public schools. If parents have to sign a release in the fall, then it is likely the law in your state.

http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1825736 - 01/16/12 03:45 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Stanny]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Stanny
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Yes, it's the law. Privacy rights of children are protected.

Can you quote a source for this? I've done a bit of research and I don't see where that is the law in my state.

To be safe, I include a release in my studio policy which all parents sign...I say that photos will be used on my website unless the parent specifically asks that they not be posted.


In the US this will vary from state to state. In the UK there is, as far as I know, no specific law that prohibits putting pictures of children up on web sites. It might well irritate their parents to do so without permission, but I've never really understood why it should.

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#1825753 - 01/16/12 05:12 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Minniemay]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Our local branch was advised by our state association's attorney. Take a cue from your public schools. If parents have to sign a release in the fall, then it is likely the law in your state.

http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm


I wouldn't bank on it! Here in the UK, media-led panic over anything that came within 100 miles of paedophilia prompted many schools to adopt a "no photography" policy. It's easier to give in than to argue the point. Last year a government spokesperson felt the need to announce "Don't be so silly, of COURSE you can photograph and video your child's Nativity Play!"

To give our government credit, they also released a series of posters debunking the wilder propaganda of the "Health & Safety" industry. While emphasising the need for safety, they made it clear that common-sense was largely sufficient, and expensive "certification" procedures were not compulsory.

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#1825820 - 01/16/12 09:46 AM Re: Hire a photographer? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
The U.S. is much more litigious.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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