I was wondering, when you play with a drummer, do you guys usually mic the piano? How do you deal with it when it's not mic'ed(?) well? I find it really frustrating, because for a lot of jazz gigs with drummers, it seems like people have problem micing the piano, so I have to play really loud all the time. I feel like there is no dynamic, it feels like the only thing i can do is just bang on the piano all the time.. even then, the audience tells me it's not loud enough.

I do realize that I tend to play softer than most people... but then again I've heard some people play REALLY LOUD, and even then, they get drowned out when the drummer is playing at full strength.

I guess the bottom line is that it takes the fun away from playing, and I feel like I am forced into playing in a style of playing that I don't enjoy. I don't mind playing loud sometimes, but it gets boring when I have to play the same volume/tone all the time.

I know exactly what you mean. This is what I do sometimes -- Take your own mic (lay it on a hand towel inside the piano) and your own little amp and aim it at your head. Be sure to wear earplugs to help keep relaxed, that loud playing really gets on the nerves, and to protect your hearing. Loud music is the most dangerous thing for your hearing.

Hey Etcetra,
I know your frustration over having one volume with a drummer. I like Jazz+'s recommendation above (I wouldn't have thought to do it that way).
It also depends heavily on the particular drummer that you work with. I've had to call other drummers instead of one that just played too heavy for me to enjoy a gig. When you have to play loud to be heard, your timing suffers, your feel suffers, and your creativity suffers after about 30 minutes of that.

You might talk to the drummer before the gig and ask him in a nice, positive way to keep the overall volume at a low level when you can't have a mic'd piano. Or use 60% brushes and 40%sticks (or even those ProMark red 'HotRodz' thin bundled sticks are nice for Latin numbers without overpowering). If it is someone who plays with you a lot, you might say something like, "I've been practicing some cool new chords and I want to be able to hear all the complex voicings". Tell them when you get louder and more intense at a part in your solo, they should feel free to take the volume/intensity up as well - in other words you are not trying to squelch their playing. But on the intros/heads/outros, bass solos, and most of your solos, it has to be soft to save your fingers.

Heavy-handed drummers are a real deal breaker for me. I like to hear nuance like Ed Thigpen (Oscar Peterson's long-time drummer) or Paul Motian (Bill Evans' early trio drummer), who were both great with brushes and really sensitive to the pianist/leader of their groups.

If the drummer is uncomfortable playing mostly brushes/HotRodz, maybe just tell them to try to play as soft as they can with regular sticks. If they can't even do that to your satisfaction, it might be time to look for a more sensitive drummer. Typically, drummers who play other melodic instruments, best-case scenario: the piano, will be more sensitive to your volume needs.

Hope this helps, and good luck!
-Erich

You really need to discuss this with the drummer. Too many of them play too loud too often.

I really appreciate a sensitive drummer, as a member of the audience. A drummer who does not know his place can ruin a performance. It is the instrument which stands out by not standing out.

Another thing you could try is to ask the drummer to play less loudly. But it's usually the bass player with his amplifier aimed at his feet who is the culprit and is typically forcing the drummer to play too loud. So you need to ask both... good luck! In an ideal world if the bass player brought his volume down the drummer should follow. Also, it's likely that if they are playing too loud then they are not listening closely to each other and not swinging very well as a rhythm section. This is often demonstrated by the great bassist Dave Friesen in his workshops: turn off the bass players amp and suddenly the drummer has to drop way down and then suddenly they are listening very carefully to each other and swinging much better. When they play LOUD the bass player and the drummer both compete for volume and end up not really listening to each other, it's all so loud they get insulated in their own loud sound zone. Turn them both way down and suddenly they find themselves listening harder. It's very hard to groove or swing when they are too loud and not really listening to the other.

Of course a lot of jerks won't care and will ignore your requests to play less loudly. There are many insensitive musicians out there. It is what it is: annoying and unmusical.

A drummer with technique can play at a whisper with regular wood sticks. Those loud players are either on ego trips, insensitive, or have no technique.

thanks so much for the feedback!

I think there are couple of problems here.. the biggest one is that people here don't know how to mic piano properly. I've had occasions where I was playing so loud that the band members were telling me that It was too much, and yet the people in the audience was telling me they can't hear the piano. It's extremely frustrating because you don't know what you can do at that point.

Also I've noticed that other piano players that play at those places tend to play loud and have more of a "In-your-face" approach. There is nothing wrong with that way of playing.. but it's not me, and It's annoying because I feel like I am asked to be different player, and be like them. I shouldn't place all my blame on other people, because I really don't know how to play really loud, and it's something that I'd like to be able to do. But then again, if playing loud means playing more like Michel Camilo and not Bill Evans, I'm not sure if that's what I'd want to do.

IMO there aren't that many drummers in my area who can play soft, and understand this whole idea that you can play jazz with the some volume as you do rock gigs. I'm not sure what I can do about it, considering that it's hard enough trying to find drummers who can play in time.

If there aren't many drummers in your area who can play softly (meaning lower stick height), ask them over the phone before you hire them if they can use mainly brushes because the piano is not mic'd and, (pretending to put it back on you) you can't play that loud for a whole gig. I also play jazz/pop drums, and I would be honored for someone wanting to hire me for the night that needs a sensitive drummer. I'd pack my brushes and HotRods (bundled thin sticks) and that's it! No sticks.

There has to be some drummer out there willing to bring it down a notch to get hired in this economy.

Absolutely! I'd almost rather have no drummer (although it's not as comfortable) than be bothered all night. Drummers who do the right thing are very very rare.

By the way does everyone here know the old joke : what's the difference between a drummer and a condom ?

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No difference: in both cases, it's safer with, but better without!

If people don't know how to mic properly then you mic yourself.

Don't adjust your playing to heavy handed playing or hammering the keys. You will risk getting get tendonitis.

It seems my previous comments were not heard. Do I need to post louder?

I always mic the grand now and then have a monitor next to me. It's not even about how loud the piano sounds to the audience. I used to use stands and point the SM58 at the hole closest to the stick. But last time I got lazy and just left the SM58 laying on the plate hole itself. The towel idea sounds good.

Unfortunately the monitoring quality can affect playing too so maybe a condenser microphone might be in order so it will get a higher quality sound, more volume with less feedback.

In my case, the guitar players are often the volume culprits, and then the bass player, drummers adjust to them instead of to the piano volume.

Wear earplugs when monitoring yourself and the sound quality will not upset you. I agree, it's not about how loud the piano sounds to the audience.

Etcetra,

I can really sympathize with the frustration you are going through having to play with another musician that is so insensitive and does not listen well. I’ve dealt with it over the years numerous, numerous times. It’s a real bummer and those nights make it painful to be a musician.

If the drummer “listened” then he would realize that his volume was way too high. You should not have to mic at all in my opinion. If the people in the room are really loud then the band needs to set up so that they can hear each other clearly. I think it’s important to play for yourselves first and the audience second. I don’t think that you should have to have a monitor blasting you to the point that you would have to wear earplugs.

Easier said than done, right?

Perhaps just you and the drummer could get together for a few rehearsals. Maybe explore the sound that just the two of you come up with. Ask him to use brushes. If you both enjoy the result then maybe he could be convinced to transfer those feelings to the gig. He really needs to understand sensitivity more.

It sounds like this player does not have a lot of experience with small groups. Has he been playing with mostly big bands or rock bands? Ultimately, if you are the leader of the group then you should instruct him to use brushes and pay attention to the dynamics. If he can’t get that, then when the time comes and you have a suitable replacement then you just have to let him go. No one in a band should have to be told to “turn down”. If they do, then in my opinion they are “young” meaning they are inexperienced.

It’s a real tough situation I know. This player is obviously not at the level that you are and I realize that it’s frustrating to have to work with that type of mentality in another musician. I really hope someone better comes along soon….

Dan

There is something I'd like to clarify. The bottom line is that I am under a lot of pressure from virtually everyone to play louder. Musicians here perceive that as sign of weakness in my playing and They've openly complained about it to me. I am sure that the reason I don't get that much gigs is because I don't play loud like other guys. As far as micing the piano/telling others to play softer is concerned, the response I get is "Other piano players don't mic their piano so why do you have to&why can't you play louder?

Again, it's the musicians, the venues, everyone is expecting certain type of playing, and they want you to play jazz with the kind of attack/touch you would use to play Chopin's Polonaise. One thing I noticed about other piano players playing loud is that I felt like they had this harsh sound, and IMO the piano sounded way too loud to me when I was standing right next to it. I guess that's an indication of the kind of loudness musicians are used to.

It's great that people here can actually understand what I am going through, It really helps to know that I am not the only one with that problem.

That's total BS ! These guys obviously don't have the technique, finesse or understanding of the genre. If it "goes there" I'd say fine, I'm bringing an electronic keyboard -SINCE WE AREN'T PLAYING AT ACOUSTIC LEVEL ANYMORE !

Velocity controls volume on piano so play with a faster attack, not a harder attack. It's like some Kung Fu where it's very fast movement with a light touch. Do not hit the keys "hard".

PS: They will not mind if you mic your own piano!!! Really.

Bring a dp a big big amp and some serious ear plugs and give 'em a taste of their own medicine!
(put amp directly behind drummers head)

Jazz+

Yea, I will start micing the piano myself from now. I am pretty sure the problem is that people here don't know what they are doing, because I remember we had this guy who know how to work the sound system in the audience once and he was able to get a full sound out of the piano.

Dave,

Yea there is definitely lack of understanding of the genre here. I don't think I am a great player myself, but I find that there is so much that is wrong with people's playing here, even the ones that are considered best here(mainly the lack of understanding of the bebop language) and feel(I don't claim I have both down either).. so yea, I feel a lot of cognitive dissonance playing jazz here, and it's part of the reason why I am not that big into the jazz scene here.

Beeboss,

It's possible that's normal, or even pleasant for these guys ears...haha

They are discriminating if they say piano doesn't need amplification. Tell the acoustic bass player to play with no amplification.

Direct your drummer to this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyPtFT453i0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Just tell him that this is what you are looking for. You can hear every note in every chord that Evans is playing. If you had to transcribe this, you could, because it is clear what he is playing (and Evans was known for having a very soft, light touch).

It is still an intense, swinging, charged jazz performance without getting too loud.

Maybe the drummer has a hearing disability - maybe he's deaf - that makes a person play too loud. Maybe everybody but you are deaf. I'd bet lunch on it. If the band members cannot hear each other, y'all are playing too loud. Such an imbalance can make the band really suck. A loud drummer will make the whole band too loud. Loud is bad in this genre. The band needs to hear each other to make the tunes come alive. Tell everybody to turn down; then if the piano needs a little boost - OK. Just my take on it.

Daviel,

I was talking to the owner of the club(or the guy who is in charge of the entertainment), he basically told me that the club is kind of place with lots of talking and stuff, and told me that's why they prefer having (jazz)bands that play loud. I basically told them that they'll need to get someone else in the future.

I agree, but I feel like unfortunately we live in a music world that is probably too loud for my taste. I mentioned standing right next to the piano player who played loud.. I swear for me it was unpleasant when it was that loud, my ears would hurt if I was standing there all the time.. but other people didn't seem to mind at all. It's not unusual that I am only one wearing earplugs on gigs that requires me to play loud, like hip hop gigs.

I think I've mentioned in other posts about not being sure about wanting to play anymore because of politics, unprofessional attitude..etc but in some ways this is worse. It could be that I am just less tolerant of loud level of noise compared to most people.

This reminds me of what Ron Stout said in a workshop. He was praising one of the student for having a very nice soft tone, and told him never let anyone tell you that you have to play louder&aggressive. Ron then went on and criticized this "Gladiator mentality" of trumpet players, where you are compelled to play louder.

I think the solutions to your problem have been clearly given. But it seems that for some reason you are unwilling to yield and take them. I don't understand.

Solutions = your own mic and amp pointed at your head, wearing earplugs (this is absolutely necessary and I actually love wearing earplugs on gigs, it's like sunglasses when driving on a bright sunny day)

I have done this countless times. You have not done it once and you are quitting the gig? Do you have so many gigs that you can afford to do that?

Etcetra,

Why can't you just use a synthesizer with amplifcation?

Jazz+

I guess that will help with hearing myself, but would that actually make any difference to the audience?

Dan Pincus

Well, where I live is a lot like NY in terms of transportation, meaning that you get around using mostly public transportation. So I'd rather not bring my own keyboard unless I absolutely have to.

It will make you louder, so yes the audience will here something more. Depends on your amp too. Why do you really care about what the audience hears? Is it a concert where they sit and listen attentively?

Jazz+

I personally don't care but It gets really annoying when someone tells you to play louder for the 50th time. Actually now that I remember, the places I play do have the kind of setup you mentioned, but it's still not loud enough. One thing I didn't mention is that my experiences playing jazz gigs here is that there is A LOT of talking going on in the background, and I am guessing the piano is just getting drowned out by noise. It literally feels like you are playing in a busy shopping mall at times.

EARPLUGS ARE HEAVENLY IN THE SITUATION YOU ARE DESCRIBING. A lot of talking going on, a lot of noise... hmmm... EARPLUGS WOULD BE GREAT! An amp aimed directly at your head will be loud enough. You say you have been doing it with nothing. By the way, the audience isn't paying attention if they are talking a lot and drinking.

There is some sort of circular logic going on in this discussion. You have solutions but you express some sort of self defeatist attitude. Why not try to mic yourself with a loud amp, wear earplugs, and then get back to us. You want to change the other musicians but don't want to make changes yourself (mic + amp + earplugs). To heck with what they say. I suspect you have a tendency to take things way to seriously. Hunker down with your amp and earplugs and get on with it. Play the fool if you have to. Don't be so high brow. It's whore house music.

I really do not understand this idea that people should play so loud that anyone should have to wear earplugs. If someone wants their ears blasted away, they should do it in private and not inflict it on others.

Will the next big thing be to spray molten lead on the audience, and then tell them that they should have worn an asbestos suit if they did not want to be burned?

It is better to play more softly and make the audience shut up and listen. If they do not want to listen, they should not be there.

I wear earplugs when I play hiphop gigs and I can understand the need to be loud because it's just a reflection of the vibe/energy of the crowd, and it's an environment where people are paying attention to the music. But for me playing loud for the sake of overpowering the crowd noise does seem silly. I find that its impossible to play ballads on those kind of gigs.

IMO there is no point playing acoustic piano if you can't hear the damn thing without having to mic it so loud, and it's a shame because the places I mentioned have nice pianos, which is rare for most venues.

They're gonna put that on my tombstone...

I can't count the times I've had a lead guitar player complain "I can't hear the piano". I would play a little riff ank ask "Can you hear that?" "Yeah I hear it now, but I couldn't when we were playing the song". My answer: "Turn your amp down and you can hear somebody besides yourself".

But they never do.

If it's a festive place where people drink and are free to talk then it makes sense that you would have to mic the acoustic piano. All the great jazz clubs in the world (Yoshi's, Blue Note, etc.) mic the piano and this is where the audience is quietly listening. They amplify the acoustic bass too. I went to hear the Yellow Jackets a year ago in a club that holds 250 and they were very loud. Hiromi's band was loud too.