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#1826486 - 01/17/12 12:57 PM suggestions for sight reading material?
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
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Loc: Kentucky
I have a 50 year old student who is completing Faber Level 3B. The problem is that now he tries to memorize each piece because he can't manage to read and play at this level.

It has occurred to me that he is doing this because his reading is weak. He enjoyed the Adult Christmas for All Time Book 2. I think he needs more work at level 2 to improve his reading. Any suggestions or books you particularly like?
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#1826493 - 01/17/12 01:06 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Online   content
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I find that short (4-8 measures) exercises are best for this problem. They can quickly study and analyze the material and the length makes it feel less daunting, like they have a real chance of making it through successfully.

There are lots of books out there for that purpose. Bastien Line a Day, Berlin's Four Star Sight Reading, etc.
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#1826496 - 01/17/12 01:11 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Loc: Kentucky
Thanks Minniemay, I'll look for these. smile
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#1826583 - 01/17/12 03:27 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Minniemay, after your post I recalled picking up a sightreading book at a workshop a few years ago. On my bookshelf I found "Sight Reading & Rhythm Every Day" Book 2B by Helen Marlais and Kevin Olson. I had never read through it. Played a few pages and it looks VERY good!

Next time I'm out, I think I'll get some additional levels of this sighreading series.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (01/17/12 04:04 PM)
Edit Reason: added info
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#1826630 - 01/17/12 04:56 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
TimR Offline
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Loc: Virginia, USA
I have recently come to think that sightreading is not a generalized skill but one quite specific to the type of material.

Sightreading novel material will not do much to improve a student's ability to read the type he's working on. To help it has to be a similar as possible in terms rhythm, harmony, fingering.

And, I think, doing a large amount of sightreading new material doesn't improve the skill as much as taking short sections and thoroughly learning them before moving on.
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#1826642 - 01/17/12 05:08 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
keystring Online   content
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If your sight reading gets good when playing lots of similar material, then it is possible that you are following familiar patterns, half-predicting them. Though your actual playing may sound better, is your ability to read actually improving?

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#1826654 - 01/17/12 05:31 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Online   content
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Well, good sightreading IS recognizing patterns. Being able to predict what is coming up is important. So the trick is, once you get comfortable with a certain kind of pattern, change it up.
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#1826659 - 01/17/12 05:35 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
keystring Online   content
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Minniemay, would you be open to saying that it *includes* recognizing patterns as a main component rather than that it is that? I have a feeling that this is important.

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#1826660 - 01/17/12 05:37 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Stanny Offline
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I'm using the Marlais sight reading books with two of my students. They are working out well!
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#1826661 - 01/17/12 05:39 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: keystring]
Minniemay Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/09
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Loc: CA
Absolutely. The ability to recognize patterns is what frees up the eye and the mind to see what is out of the pattern.
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#1826673 - 01/17/12 06:11 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Minniemay, after your post I recalled picking up a sightreading book at a workshop a few years ago. On my bookshelf I found "Sight Reading & Rhythm Every Day" Book 2B by Helen Marlais and Kevin Olson. I had never read through it. Played a few pages and it looks VERY good!

Next time I'm out, I think I'll get some additional levels of this sighreading series.

Sightreading is the first time only, no idea what something sounds like, never having seen it before.

I am more concerned about reading, meaning that if the 2nd and 3rd reading starts to snap into place really quickly, eventually the 1st reading (true sightreading) will be excellent.

thumb for the idea of short and reasonably easy pieces for practice.
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#1826714 - 01/17/12 08:06 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Stanny]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Stanny
I'm using the Marlais sight reading books with two of my students. They are working out well!

Good to hear it. I'm seeing that there is a well designed structure to the 2B book that I have. (I received it free at a workshop, but never appreciated it until today.) So far I've played 3/4 the way through.

I suggested the sight reading book to my student this evening. He's going to think about it. I don't think he's entirely convinced that he would benefit from this work. I had him work on the first page, and it is NOT too easy for him. If he chooses not to get the book, I may use my copy for a few minutes exercises during lessons.
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#1826721 - 01/17/12 08:12 PM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Gary D.]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Gary D.


I am more concerned about reading, meaning that if the 2nd and 3rd reading starts to snap into place really quickly, eventually the 1st reading (true sightreading) will be excellent.



My concern is reading also. This student is not reading well. So even though it's called a sight reading book, I'm concerned with improving overall reading.

He has spent weeks working on just one page of Canon in D (version in 3B book). In other words, 2nd and 3rd readings are not "snapping into place".

Taking the time to work through this book will give needed practice with rhythm and reading. I hope he will do the work.
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#1826869 - 01/18/12 02:45 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3672
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Ann from Kentucky,

There are no short cuts to learning to sight-read ... adults might think that their worldly-wise experiences give them a head start ... but as you have found, gaffers tend to memorize
rather than genuinely sight-read the keyboard music.

My solution to maintain interest is always to find a piece of music that the adult REALLY LIKES ... like a an appetising carrot (that’s of course if you like carrots ... my preference is spinach feta) to ease the boredom of hammering away at so many repeats.

Hope you are having good weather,
regards ... btb

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#1826900 - 01/18/12 04:51 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 3586
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
He has spent weeks working on just one page of Canon in D (version in 3B book).

This raises a red flag for me. Usually by Faber 3B students should be fluently reading steps and skips, plus intervals up to a 6th. If he is spending weeks on one page, don't you think his reading level is below 3B?

I've worked with the slowest of the slow readers, so I know how you feel. Do you think he'd be willing to do drill-and-kill worksheets on note naming? I've discovered that people who recognize notes instantly tend to sight read much faster than those who were taught to count up or down from the landmark notes (or middle C!!).
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#1826947 - 01/18/12 07:27 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: AZNpiano]
piano joy Offline
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Registered: 03/28/11
Posts: 596
Loc: Florida
When I returned to playing, I made copies of the grand staff and placed one in each car,one in my purse, one in the bathroom (during hair drying!), you name the place. I would study it every chance I got, as I had forgotten quite a few of the notes, esp bass clef, no surprise. This really helped me get back on tract very fast and my sight reading is quite decent and FAR better than my memory.

(ps. I did not study WHILE driving, but while stopped at red lights- great use of those little moments )

Just a thought.
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#1826964 - 01/18/12 08:26 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 1810
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Minniemay, would you be open to saying that it *includes* recognizing patterns as a main component rather than that it is that? I have a feeling that this is important.


I think that there is a component of processing (seeing the music and producing the muscle movements directly) and a component of retrieval (recognizing and reproducing thoroughly learned prememorized fragments).

I think that for the really good sightreaders retrieval is about 95%. If so, that has implications for how to practice it.

There may actually be little difference between sightreading something new with familiar components, and playing a learned piece using the sheet music.
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#1826971 - 01/18/12 08:58 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: TimR]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7496
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: keystring
Minniemay, would you be open to saying that it *includes* recognizing patterns as a main component rather than that it is that? I have a feeling that this is important.


I think that there is a component of processing (seeing the music and producing the muscle movements directly) and a component of retrieval (recognizing and reproducing thoroughly learned prememorized fragments).

I think that for the really good sightreaders retrieval is about 95%. If so, that has implications for how to practice it.

There may actually be little difference between sightreading something new with familiar components, and playing a learned piece using the sheet music.


There is also the issue of the eyes moving ahead of the fingers. That is a tough thing for most people to do as they feel more comfortable watching the note as they play it rather than relying upon short-term memory to continue the measure while the eyes move onto the next for processing/recognition.

Have them start out by looking/studying measure one before playing it (start with a piece they already know to develop this skill), and then cover it up, THEN ask them to play it while looking at measure 2 which is still uncovered. Then about halfway through measure 2, cover that up, and continue this through the whole piece.
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#1826973 - 01/18/12 09:01 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
Thanks for the comments. I think I need more information. So I'll pull out flashcards and see how quickly he can name and play notes. But I really think he will do just fine with that.

Some worksheet drills with note naming and interval naming could be helpful.

But I'm thinking about Tim R's comment about processing. I have a feeling it's something about processing. This is the student who had GREAT trouble with pedaling. (And it's much improved now.) I think for example he sees that 16th notes are coming up and races into it, forgetting to count...an element of anxiety "Oh, no, it's going to get faster and it's going to be difficult". And this is where taking more time to tap and count prior to playing could help.

The sightreading book surprised me by having more than drills. It has suggestions along with each exercise. And rhythm exercises. Feels like you have two well respected professionals (Marlais and Olson) at your piano telling you their best advice for looking over a piece before playing. And different exercises. With some exercises they may suggest that you sing the melody, another they may suggest playing just the downbeat of each measure (while counting) etc. as preparation to playing the piece as written. I'm thinking this would be helpful.

btb, choosing material he likes is easy. He likes most pieces and is happily working through Piano Literature Bk 1 also (with difficulty). BTW, the weather here is very unusual. In 40's to 50's and rain for weeks. Perennials are peeking up in January. Very strange. How's your weather?

AZN, since Level 3B is not easy for him, that's my signal that he's really not ready to move to more complex material. But he was doing well until getting to the end of 3B. He tends to be prepared. It may be that he simply hasn't put much work in these past few weeks. But still, it is obvious that work at this level is not easy for him.
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#1826975 - 01/18/12 09:07 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7496
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky


AZN, since Level 3B is not easy for him, that's my signal that he's really not ready to move to more complex material. But he was doing well until getting to the end of 3B. He tends to be prepared. It may be that he simply hasn't put much work in these past few weeks. But still, it is obvious that work at this level is not easy for him.



Sometimes when you find something like this happening, it usually means that a change in their practice routine is called for. Perhaps he's still in the habit of playing through pieces 2-3 times a day and doesn't realize that you need to do more detailed practicing? It really should not take this long at this level, so it's worth talking to him about. Make sure he knows that the things you do during the lesson is exactly how you want him to practice when he's at home. Sometimes they don't get this unless you say it specifically.
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#1826976 - 01/18/12 09:08 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
Thanks Morodiene, I'll get more info and give more guidance regarding practice at home.
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#1826985 - 01/18/12 09:23 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
I'm looking over P Canon to figure out where the difficulty may lie. I suggested from the start to block the broken chords. Initially he did not do as advised, but instead came up with an elaborate analysis which did not help him at all.

In retrospect I see that the chord names confused him instead of helping...it's as though he was looking for chords in root position. Next I had suggested looking at the shape of the chord. They are mostly 1st and 2nd inversions. Anyway, after a few weeks page 1 is coming along OK and he's on to page 2 now.

But I don't see how reading broken chords could be so difficult, unless he is only trying to read one note at a time. So I think I need to have him work on playing chords with inversions (as opposed to note naming)...basics that need more time.
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#1826988 - 01/18/12 09:30 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
I'm looking over P Canon to figure out where the difficulty may lie. I suggested from the start to block the broken chords. Initially he did not do as advised, but instead came up with an elaborate analysis which did not help him at all.

In retrospect I see that the chord names confused him instead of helping...it's as though he was looking for chords in root position. Next I had suggested looking at the shape of the chord. They are mostly 1st and 2nd inversions. Anyway, after a few weeks page 1 is coming along OK and he's on to page 2 now.

But I don't see how reading broken chords could be so difficult, unless he is only trying to read one note at a time. So I think I need to have him work on playing chords with inversions (as opposed to note naming)...basics that need more time.


Have you had him just play the blocked chords in the LH alone? No need to identify the name, just read all the notes in the measure (if it's one chord/measure, I don't have it in front of me) and play them simultaneously. When he can do that with fluency, then have him play the RH as written while blocking LH chords. When he can do that fluently, then have him play as written.
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#1826989 - 01/18/12 09:30 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Minniemay Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/09
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Loc: CA
Has he had sufficient previous experience with broken chords in all their inversions?
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#1827006 - 01/18/12 10:06 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Minniemay]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Has he had sufficient previous experience with broken chords in all their inversions?


By sorting through the issue here on PW, I've come to the conclusion that he has not. We'll focus on that.

It was really helpful to talk this over with everyone, and then see that the issue is more specific than a general poor reading. So I know where to go from here. (I've only had one other student complete 3B and he had no problem like this.) So thanks to all who posted. smile

This year I've looked over RCM guidelines for scales and I'm having students do more scale work. Now I see I need to add more work with inversions too.
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#1827007 - 01/18/12 10:10 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
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Loc: Kentucky
Hi Morodiene,
In this arrangement, LH has a single note, followed by RH single notes. I've encouraged him to play the LH note then play the RH broken chord. It was difficult for him to see the pattern changes. He has the book "Scales, Chords and Arpgeggios" and I'll start assigning some work from it regarding chord inversions.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (01/18/12 10:10 AM)
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#1827017 - 01/18/12 10:29 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7496
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Hi Morodiene,
In this arrangement, LH has a single note, followed by RH single notes. I've encouraged him to play the LH note then play the RH broken chord. It was difficult for him to see the pattern changes. He has the book "Scales, Chords and Arpgeggios" and I'll start assigning some work from it regarding chord inversions.


OK, then have him block the chords on the RH in the same format as I described above. He needs to see the relationship from one chord to the other...do any notes remain the same? Which ones change? Chances are they change by step, so blocking it out helps with that.
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#1827036 - 01/18/12 11:07 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
Ann in Kentucky Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2063
Loc: Kentucky
I've put the book away, so I don't know right off if there are common chord tones, but I will be careful to point out common tones when they occur.

In the future I will not just tell a student to block the chords. Instead, we will spend time in the lesson blocking chords, and looking at a descending pattern which moves the hand down one note at a time. They'll get an introduction to it, and I'll get a sense of whether the student finds it difficult.

But also I'll add inversion work to the routine way I teach. I now tend to start lessons with a few minutes of scales. I'll get a plan for chord inversions too, so that it is not just introduced and then neglected.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (01/18/12 11:08 AM)
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#1827085 - 01/18/12 11:51 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 1810
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky

But I'm thinking about Tim R's comment about processing. I have a feeling it's something about processing.


As a beginner, he doesn't have a memory bank to do retrieval from. He has to do it all with processing, and that is inherently more difficult.

Your ideas in the later posts about blocking chords, etc., seem to me to be right on target with what is needed to produce some of those memory fragments.
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#1827086 - 01/18/12 11:51 AM Re: suggestions for sight reading material? [Re: Ann in Kentucky]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 967
Loc: Maine
From an (adult) student's point of view: Bastien Technic Level 3 has several pages of exercises on inversions, which I found really helpful in getting comfortable at recognizing inversions and getting to the correct fingering for them. I spent about 2 months on them, and they really helped.
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