My children attend a reputable music school, my daughter started first and had an excellent teacher for 2 years in group class (The school discourages private classes until the child is about 8). We did not realise how good the teacher was until she left the school and we cycled through a few other teachers. My daughter (now 8) is now in a private class at the school and things seem to be better now.

My son is doing group and started out with a teacher that did not get through to a lot of the young kids. It was torture for him and me because the lesson flow was disorganised and the pace was very erratic. Luckily I knew enough music to teach him a lot at home (I did guitar for a while). We complained and got him into a new class with a good teacher and he responded well almost immediately. His teacher has now left the school (after about 1 term) and after 2 lessons with the replacement I am worried that I am back to a frustrating year again.

I think that because I have had the 2 years of experience with a first rate group teacher for my daughter (and son for a short time) I end up being less tolerant and complaining more than the other parents that just accept that music is a struggle or think that there is something wrong with their kids.

I realise that a lot of this comes from experience and I epect that they will all learn eventually, but we pay the same fee for these teachers irrespective of skill level.

Is it insulting to point out some of the things that these new teachers should do in the class (based on what I have seen other teachers do)? I have really grown to appreciate the skill it takes to manage a group class with children aged 3 - 5. The teachers that I found to be good did some simple things to keep the class controlled and focused and had good instincts on when it was appropriate to tackle certin topics. I thought these were tenets of the school, but I realise now that it was personal style.

I am trying not to be a whiner, but I know that my son will not have a clue what to do based on how the material is covered in class. How much time should I give before saying something.

What is a "private class"?

The idea that children are not ready for private lessons until age eight is ABSURD.

If your children have talent, get them out of groups and find a first-rate private teacher.

The premise for the group class is that they challenge each other and respond to the social aspect to the class. It makes sense to me in principle.

I have considered looking for a private teacher, but I like that there are lots of opportunities to perform in public regulrarly at the school.

I think that I might switch them out of the school if they want to pursue music to a very high level, but right now I just dont want them to be frustrated or bored with it.

Really? In my experience, these group classes aren't the most productive. Some parents have told me they wish they had started their kids with private lessons instead.

I agree. Piano class is very unproductive usually. That is not to say that you cannot find a private teacher who does group classes on occasion.

My question is, why do you insist on staying that this school where they have a revolving door of teachers? The good ones leave for a reason, you know. Why not find a good private instructor that suits your needs?

Whoa, hold on there. Group lessons can be highly effective IF well taught. The same holds true for private lessons. It all has to do with the teacher.

The best situation, of course, is to have both. Many college preparatory departments do just that. A master teacher teaches the group lesson (which is the main form of instruction) and another teacher teaches the private lesson (supplementary to the group). Students get the social interaction and many performance opportunities from the group and the necessary individual attention in the private lesson.

Back to the OP, you need to make sure you have a good teacher, whether or not it is group or private. Many private teachers offer monthly group lessons, too.

I agree that the teacher makes a big differnce whether group or private. It takes a lot of skill to hold a group class, but when it works the kids all pull each other along.

I like the school because of my experience. I had played guitar for a while and spent a long time going from teacher to teacher and school to school. After being frustrated I walked into this school and very impressed. It might be that they recently have grown too large to properly coach and monitor the teachers. I remember that when my daughter started there would be periodic visits form the senior staff to view the class, but they dont seem to do that anymore. They said they were actually taking notes on her technique to pass on to other teachers.

I also like the programme that they have. It is different from what I was used to growing up and I think it is actually quite good. It is heavily focused on musicianship and my daughter understands more music theory than I ever learned in my life, and I did classical guitar exams up to grade 5 and continued playoing to about a grade 7 or 8 level (so I was told). She is the one that teaches me about chord structure and progressions. I have aa lot of faith in their programme. but the rotating door of teachers is frustrating.

At best they all pull each other along at the slowest child's pace. Just my 2 cents.

To me the magic of lessons is that for the first time a child is cannot be dragged down by other children who are moving slower.

I just can't see piano as something like a chorus, band, or orchestra, where people HAVE to be playing together.

Now, if we are talking about small ensembles, that's another matter.

I see what you are saying.

Maybe my daughters group just happened to be very well matched.

I see some little 5 y/o kids on the internet playing chopin and it is mind boggling, that could not come out of a group class. but my kids are not that good.

I believe in sports and all sorts of groups, and not only for small children or young people.

But for any child who COULD BECOME really serious about the piano, serious meaning wanting to play well, enjoy it, etc., not serious in the way of winning prizes, I think private lessons should be the most important part of piano.

Having said that, there are many children who are more or less spinning their wheels when starting before age eight, because they are not yet ready for the more intense nature of one-on-one.

But for those who are ready, every year delayed I think is a shame, so I would always put groups second, for piano.

+1. I think that group piano, in addition to weekly individual instruction can be helpful, but my idea of group piano is more like small ensemble playing so they get accustomed to playing piano with others as well as opportunities to perform for one another in a relaxed environment so that they do not develop any anxieties about playing in front of others. However, if given a choice, individual lessons will win out against group each time. One-on-one time spent learning from an adult is such a unique experience for a child that they end up loving it if just for that alone.

The most successful group classes are taught to the top of the class, not the bottom. That's why a supplementary private lesson is essential. It helps keep the slowest kids going. The group lesson expectations push those slower students to achieve.

When I was teaching in such a program, we set very high standards. It was exciting, seeing how the "fast" kids helped the slower ones. It didn't slow down the fast kids; it sped up the slower ones.

One more thing I like about the group classes is that a parent has to sit in so that they can supervise homework. So I can fumble around the piano a bit now .

I tried not to play the piano much with my daughter because I wanted to leave piano as her thing (even though I always wanted to learn) without me in her space, she likes being the expert. With my son I think I will actually practice quietly when he is not around.

I would talk to the director of the school. A larger problem is why they're having this kind of turnover in their teachers. A good school will have a stable teaching staff. I wonder if there's another problem underneath.

Are the kids placed into classes by levels and abilities? Or are they all doing basic stuff like ta-ta-ta-ta for quarter notes?

Group instruction can only go on for so long before the ability gap renders the slow kids frustrated, and they'll just quit lessons.

They all start out in the same class and remain there for the first year. At that point, they are leveled. Most of the classes remained together for the 2nd year with the 3rd year being more of a separating point.

The group lesson where I taught was the main mode of instruction. All concepts were prepared and introduced in that setting. We taught technique, reading, rhythm, ear training -- the whole works.

It's essential that the group lesson be supplemented with a private lesson. It addresses the individual needs beautifully.

Thanks for the explanation. It makes more sense to me now. Have you ever worked with children who can't work their way out of the first year?

Over two years ago I got a transfer student nightmare from one of the local group classes. The student has already had more than two years of "group instruction" and still couldn't read past middle C 5-finger position, count in 4/4 time, keep a steady pulse, hear the difference between major and minor triads, or sight read preparatory material. That experience made me want to scream at the group lesson instructors.

My very first student in that program, in fact! For the first year and a half, every lesson seemed to revert to the first week or so. We kept her in the group, trusting that at some point, the lightbulb would go on. Indeed, it did. Within the second half of her second year, she went from being a virtual non-reader to playing a Bach prelude.

Sometimes there is some developmental catch (classic Piaget) that you cannot control. Patience and repetition are called for, but I'll tell you, that was one of the most difficult things I have encountered in all my years of teaching.

By the way, that student became a decent pianist and is now a lawyer.

Thank you for that explanation. The one thing I always support is not giving up on anyone until it is clearly impossible to continue, and obviously you did hang in there in spite of all odds. So that was very enjoyable to read.

As the director of a piano school that offers group lessons, I would suggest that you see if you can figure out which teacher you would prefer, and then talk to someone about getting into that teacher's class. Some of this is personality, some of it is teaching style, and some of it is training.

Depending on the supervisor, he or she is probably very aware of their teacher's shortcomings and is already working on ways to improve. Hearing about your frustrations will also help to give the teacher feedback and ways to improve.

I also think it would be totally appropriate to talk to the teacher and give them some tips. Many times group lessons is a challenge, especially to someone that has previously taught privately. I find that I have to tell my new teachers the same tips several times before they realize that I may know something about how to control a class or before they are really able to take the advice. The teacher may not respond to you immediately, but if their supervisor and other teachers have told them the same thing, it will mean a lot more coming from you.

I have no idea what is happening in your school, but here are some very general tips I have used in my school with the young children.
1. To get the children engaged and attentive, use body motions and finger plays. If I'm teaching rhythm, we may be clapping or stomping. If I'm teaching a new song, I'll start with singing it several times with body motions. I had one teacher sing songs and teach hi/low by having the students touch different levels of their body: feet, knees, waist, shoulders and head for the 5-note scale.
2. Only give one direction at a time and only expect the children to do one thing at a time. NEVER give the students instructions while they are working on a worksheet.
3. Praise the students often and learn their names immediately. This age wants desperately to be recognized and will strive for your attention in any fashion. If you don't give them positive praise, then they will seek negative discipline. Either way they are noticed and that is their goal.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the advice. I will talk to her, you are correct that new teachers seem to have trouble controlling a group class.

I like the high low idea. I will try it at home.

Some of the things that I found the more experienced teachers used that new teachers seemed to miss were:
- Making sure that kids were not allowed to answer questions without being called on and direct questions to specific children. This gives everyone a chance to participate. Sometimes one kid can take over a class.
- After circle time make each kid go back to their parents seat and teach the parent what was discussed (prents are in the class)
- have them play the pieces individually and in group so that teacher can focus on each child as well as how they play together. the child gets used to playing solo to an audience and also playing in time with others, listening and coming back in with the group if they make a mistake.
- Make sure that kids understand before doing games. Some of the newer teachers get so worried about making the class fun and getting to the games that they dont have time to actually teach the topic properly.

I will drop her an email with some thoughts. I hope she does not take offense.