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#1827764 - 01/19/12 10:38 AM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Dr Popper]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper

Yeah its basically a N1 in a upright case with a full upright action ... its going to be cheaper then the N1.


Does it makes sense to put an upright action into any digital? I've thought upright action is just compromise and everybody prefers grand piano action...
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November 2011: piano entered into my life.

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#1827778 - 01/19/12 11:25 AM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Well any real piano action is better then any digital action so yes
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1827783 - 01/19/12 11:31 AM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Meh, I guess I disagree with both of those statements. There are plenty of acoustic actions that are inferior to plenty of digital actions, all things considered. The distributions overlap in terms of quality.

I also don't think an upright action in a hybrid piano makes sense. How much cheaper would it really be than the N1 because of the action change? A little bit of horizontal space would be traded for some vertical space with the associated loss of key length, double escapement, and gravity-instead-of-springs action. Not a big win.


Edited by gvfarns (01/19/12 11:32 AM)

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#1827785 - 01/19/12 11:33 AM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: KarelG]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
Originally Posted By: KarelG
Does it makes sense to put an upright action into any digital? I've thought upright action is just compromise and everybody prefers grand piano action...

I've played some wonderful upright actions. I've also played some not-so-wonderful grand actions.

Regardless, even in a DP, I imagine that there might be a size/shape advantage to the upright action if you're installing it in an upright-shaped enclosure.

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#1827795 - 01/19/12 11:52 AM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
If Yamaha wanted an instrument between the quality of the AvantGrand and their digitals, they could probably design a simple-ish action that is much improved over current digital actions without using an acoustic action.

Say, start with something that looks like RM3, but with keys that are as long as acoustic keys. Use two hammer sensors for velocity and an optical key sensor for dampers. You are done. If you want to take it to the next level, you can add a true escapement, though that adds a lot of complexity.

Probably not worth it, though. The savings to using such an action or an upright action instead of using a grand action can't be that big relative to the total cost of the instrument. Would you buy an upright-action AvantGrand if it was $500 or even $1000 less than the N1? I wouldn't.

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#1827816 - 01/19/12 12:30 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
Madlock Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 36
Is Kawai the only one of the big names who hasn't released a list of products to be shown at NAMM or have I missed it? All I really am looking forward to is seeing if they have something new to replace CA-63, so I can finally either buy it or start waiting for the updated model smile

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#1827822 - 01/19/12 12:36 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
doremi Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1682
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I am doremi because I play scales
Had I progressed to playing chords, I would be domisol

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#1827837 - 01/19/12 12:54 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: doremi]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 176
If the action is as good as on a Yamaha U1, I think it the action would be the least of your concerns.
_________________________
Roland RD-700NX // Galaxy Vintage D

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#1827839 - 01/19/12 12:57 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2910
Loc: Oregon
With top DP actions now rivaling those of some acoustics, I see no need for installing a compromise action (which is exactly what an upright action is) in a DP.

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#1827857 - 01/19/12 01:17 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4388
It makes no sense to put an upright action on a DP: the reason why concert pianists won't play serious stuff on uprights is because their action is compromised and rapid ornaments and repeated notes etc are difficult/impossible to execute. DPs with actions similar (even if not identical) to those of acoustic grands (i.e. using gravity for key return, not springs) can repeat notes as quickly as on good grands - if they have the right (number of) sensors.

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#1827873 - 01/19/12 01:31 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2324
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Not to mention that the sound will be a Yamaha grand sample...upright action makes no sense to me either.
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Yamaha CP1

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#1827879 - 01/19/12 01:36 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
I just noticed between another thread and google that the NU1 is not a wild prediction, it's a real thing. I'm not sure why it's not in the list of Yamaha announcements.

Just in case anyone was like me and thought we were being hypothetical here...

A hybrid piano with an upright action. That really is a first.

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#1827888 - 01/19/12 01:46 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: bennevis]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
Originally Posted By: bennevis
It makes no sense to put an upright action on a DP: the reason why concert pianists won't play serious stuff on uprights is because their action is compromised and rapid ornaments and repeated notes etc are difficult/impossible to execute. DPs with actions similar (even if not identical) to those of acoustic grands (i.e. using gravity for key return, not springs) can repeat notes as quickly as on good grands - if they have the right (number of) sensors.

I think there are a lot of assumptions in there. Maybe concert pianists don't play on uprights because, well, they don't need to. Grands are always available, and they sound better. At any rate, I would guess that, for the vast majority of players, who are not concert pianists, the "lesser" action of an upright is not the limiting factor in their technique. (And as I mentioned, I have played some uprights that were much nicer to play than some grands!)

BTW, quick repetition isn't everything, and also doesn't necessarily require extra sensors (though retriggering a sound, pedal-up, without muting the previous strike, does require a third sensor). Simple two-sensor unweighted boards can permit extremely rapid repetition. (Unfortunately, they also tend to provide no decent control of dynamics!)

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#1827893 - 01/19/12 01:48 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: anotherscott]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
(Unfortunately, they also tend to provide no decent control of dynamics!)


Can you elaborate what you mean by this and explain why it should be so. Because the sensors are too far apart perhaps? Control of dynamics in a two-sensor action is not a problem I've noticed or heard people complain about.

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#1827899 - 01/19/12 01:52 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2324
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
He meant that the unweighted boards offer no control, not that they are two sensor.
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Yamaha CP1

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#1827903 - 01/19/12 01:56 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: EssBrace]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2910
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
He meant that the unweighted boards offer no control, not that they are two sensor.

Although weighted two-sensor actions do tend to be less capable in the area of dynamic control during rapid repetition, for some reason that the technically-minded can doubtless explain. Three-sensor actions are definitely preferable if you need that level of control.

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#1827905 - 01/19/12 01:59 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2324
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Oh yes, I agree purely in terms of rapid repetition. But in a general sense I don't think the third sensor offers any great advantage in control of dynamics.
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Yamaha CP1

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#1827914 - 01/19/12 02:12 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Gotcha. That makes more sense.

Though my question/worry about two sensor actions is whether they are close enough together. The first sensor encountered has to lift the damper so it happens something like half way through the stroke. I would prefer it if velocity was sensed at two points close together near the bottom of the stroke so that the effects of accelleration would be negligible. In other words, so that the time between the two sensors is a good estimate of the velocity as it passes the last sensor.


Edited by gvfarns (01/19/12 02:12 PM)

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#1827944 - 01/19/12 02:46 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: gvfarns]
KarelG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I just noticed between another thread and google that the NU1 is not a wild prediction, it's a real thing. I'm not sure why it's not in the list of Yamaha announcements.

Just in case anyone was like me and thought we were being hypothetical here...

A hybrid piano with an upright action. That really is a first.


Oh, so now, let's just see their sales figures, but it really looks like they are going after Kawai CS9 with this beast. It's really a pity that Kawai cannot come with a real competitor for AvantGrand's line... Would be good for customer to make their prices a little bit lower.
_________________________
November 2011: piano entered into my life.

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#1827993 - 01/19/12 04:43 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: KarelG]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1682
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_________________________
I am doremi because I play scales
Had I progressed to playing chords, I would be domisol

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#1827998 - 01/19/12 04:51 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Madlock]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8383
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
What's the new/updated console from Kawai?


The ageing CE200 has been updated to the CE220, with PHI sound and 88-key sampling.

Hardly a game-changer, but a welcome upgrade none the less.
"Loved the key action, hated the sound" posts from folks who try this model in musical instrument chain stores should finally become a thing of the past.

Originally Posted By: Madlock
All I really am looking forward to is seeing if they have something new to replace CA-63, so I can finally either buy it or start waiting for the updated model smile


No new CAs, CNs, MPs - Kawai America's primary focus this year is the new Shigeru Kawai series.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1828006 - 01/19/12 05:01 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
@doremi: Kawai's acoustic grands are not direct competitors with Yamaha's AvantGrands, though. I'm sure that's what KarelG is referring to.

I'm sure we'd all love to see a millennium 3 action in a hybrid piano but at the moment acoustic grand with "anytime" is the only place you can get that.


Edited by gvfarns (01/19/12 05:25 PM)

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#1828056 - 01/19/12 06:05 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1682
.
_________________________
I am doremi because I play scales
Had I progressed to playing chords, I would be domisol

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#1828066 - 01/19/12 06:21 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
I actually think you misunderstood the other people. No sane person would imply that Kawai doesn't have the ability to make something like the AvantGrand, particularly on the action side.

They just aren't doing it. Possibly there are issues engineering the whole package (mostly the digital side), but most likely it's just not profitable to do so.

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#1828079 - 01/19/12 06:43 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1682
.
_________________________
I am doremi because I play scales
Had I progressed to playing chords, I would be domisol

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#1828085 - 01/19/12 06:50 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Well, we'll see what they charge for it. From the pictures it looks like it will be larger and heavier than the N1 and N2, which I consider a downside.

You have a point that the difference between an upright and grand action doesn't come up much. It is an inferior action, though, and a bigger box. They will have to make it noticeably cheaper for people to be drawn to it over the N1, I would think. And an upright action isn't *that* much cheaper than a grand action, so it seems strange to me.

On the other hand, it has a great look about it. If they price it near that of the CS9, the latter could become a tough sell.

(This has gone on longer than is optimal already, but to be clear the "can't" in the post you quoted could refer to the profitability or perhaps willpower issue I mentioned, which makes total sense. Your follow-up, on the other hand, disambiguates it as if Kawai lacked the ability to manufacture a good hybrid, something that does not make sense. For that reason I think the misunderstanding was yours. Following it up with an invitation to play Kawai acoustics further supports the notion that you misunderstood the post you quoted, even though you were apparently addressing a completely different topic.)


Edited by gvfarns (01/19/12 07:14 PM)

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#1828094 - 01/19/12 07:07 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1682
.
_________________________
I am doremi because I play scales
Had I progressed to playing chords, I would be domisol

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#1828120 - 01/19/12 08:03 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
We are talking about a piano that's several thousand dollars below the N1 in price basically price wise its the next step up from a Clavinova 480 and I don't agree that a Yamaha U upright action is inferior to ANY current digital action.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1828121 - 01/19/12 08:06 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Dr Popper]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I don't agree that a Yamaha U upright action is inferior to ANY current digital action.


No one said that, actually, so you are disagreeing with thin air. Someone in this thread suggested that ALL acoustic actions are better than ALL digitals, which is quite different. If you agree with that, stop by my parents' house and play their spinet.

Several thousand dollars less than the N1 does get it into a range where it competes with normal digitals, so if that's right it will indeed be interesting. I didn't see a MSRP. Do you know what it is?


Edited by gvfarns (01/19/12 08:10 PM)

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#1828135 - 01/19/12 08:17 PM Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM [Re: Sketches]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I was told substantially less then the N1 .... and I'll restate this a bit more clearly.

ALL current acoustic actions from major manufacturers are superior to ALL current digital actions which leaves out your parents spinet.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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