Welcome to the Piano World Forums, Don!

That is quite an invention you have there...

Are all 88 notes capable of tuning themselves?

The middle C note still sounded a tad disonant to me after it was tuned... maybe it was the recording.

Good luck with your invention!

Rick

All 88 notes simultaneously and independently. Less than one minute for the entire piano.

Don A. Gilmore
Kansas City

Doesn't that mean the whole piano's strings (all of the two hundred and something of them) are going to be vibrating for around one minute before you can play the piano? And after you install this device, do you not need to have a piano tuner to tune your piano again? (well, of course you need a piano tech to do your maintenance and action, etc). It's a pretty interesting device, though, Thanks Don.

No offense but, when you said that note was perfectly in tune, it was most certainly NOT. The unison sounded bad. In listening to the remainder of the video, the piano is quite out of tune.

Cool idea. But does not seem to work very well, unless it's the recording. Or you are using a bad tuners data as a basis.

Way to many parts that will rattle at some point.

There is already very little clearance between the pin block and the action, so as an aftermarket product, doomed.

It would probably be easier to implement on a screw stringer type system (or not, what do I know), but I know of no manufacturer that produces them.

Still a very neat idea. All the best.

I had wondered what happened to this. It's a nice idea.

My question is whether there has been any testing done regarding pinblock longevity. The reason I ask is that one technique I use for removing stubburn bridge pins is to apply heat. Usually it is by touching a soldering iron to to top of the pin. The pin expands, enlarging the hole, and will then be loose enough to pull out. You can use a similar technique to size center pin bushings. I'm just imagining the effect of repeatedly heating the tuning pins. It sounds to me like a recipe for ruining pinblocks. When I heard about this before, I didn't realize that you were applying heat to the bottom of the tuning pins.

I don't know though. Maybe it doesn't get hot enough. That's why I'm asking.

I wonder if the out-of-tuneness perceived by the technicians here is an artifact of the recording process. Or the stability of the instrument, if it's brand-new.

Hi, Don. I remember your earlier posts (here or elsewhere) about your work, going back years. Nice to see a demonstration; best of luck.

Who would want this custom-built, complex contraption in his piano?
And who wants a piano that gets tuned by turning it on and letting each string heat to just the right temperature?
And how much would this cost?

I think this idea is a loser. Sorry.

I prefer a human piano tuner to an oven piano tuner.

I'd like to see it do a 50% pitch correction.

So if the tuning pins need to be warmed up enough to heat the strings, how long will the pin block last?

Assuming that it is capable of really tuning the piano perfectly, I think this system would be most attractive for someone who likes to have their piano nearly perfectly in tune all the time. As any player knows, even if you have your piano tuned three times a year, most of the time it is not as well in tune as it is just after the tuner leaves.

A technician will still need to be called once a year or every two years for voicing and regulation. But I could imagine that having the piano be perfectly in tune would make this system worthwhile for many people.

One worry I would have is that heat can only lower the pitch. If the goal is to have the piano in tune with itself (not necessarily A440), this means that if one string slips flat, the system will tune the whole piano down that much. One way to avoid this would be for the user to learn the very basic skill of raising the pitch of just one string by a moderate amount using a regular tuning lever.

Careful, Charles, you may be stirring up a hornets nest with that comment… (just kidding… no I’m not )

I’ve never been the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to business ideas or ventures, but it seems to me this idea/product would be a good sell for some, selective individuals/piano owners and circumstances, but not a broad array of piano owners.

Most owners of high-end pianos can afford (and probably prefer) to have a skilled technician maintain their instrument on a regular basis, and probably wouldn’t want this type of accessory installed on their piano. Besides, the tuning on high quality pianos seems to be more stable anyway. I don’t know, but I’m guessing this option would be several thousand dollars, and the average piano owner, regardless of how good a player they may be, would opt to spend the money else ware, on a better instrument or maybe piano lessons.

The idea may appeal to some piano manufacturers, but if it adds a considerable amount to the selling price, I doubt they would go for it… but, again, I’m not much of an entrepreneur or big thinker when it comes to business ventures.

I'd like to hear what Steve Cohen or Larry Fine has to say about it.

Nevertheless, it is a great idea and a monumental effort in the use of modern technology on an old (and stable) design.

I wish Don the best of luck with his invention.

Rick

I'll try to answer most of your questions.

The tuning pins are not heated. They are just a contact point to apply 5 volts of electricity. Because the strings are long and very thin they have electrical resistance and get warm. The pins are much thicker and very low in resistance. They do not warm any measurable amount and remain at room temperature. Even the strings only get to about 95 F, which is cooler than your skin.

I wrote a special program to do a fast tuning for the video, so that you wouldn't lose interest having to stare at the screen for a solid minute. That's why it appears to tune so fast. I stopped tuning when the error was less than one full cent. The background music is NOT the self-tuning piano. I originally had an Idil Biret recording of a Chopin piece, but YouTube hassled me about copyright infringement, so I sat down and recorded the Fauré piece myself on my Kawai grand, which had been hand-tuned a few days before that. If you don't like the sound of it, you can take it up with my tech.

When running the real algorithm, the accuracy is much more precise. The string vibration is compared to how many times a high-frequency quartz clock "ticks" for each vibration. So I can measure to a tiny fraction of a cent. I have found in reality that you can't tune to better than a tenth of a cent or so, because the string frequency naturally wavers a little.

The system is not tuned to a theoretical value. It simply records and plays back tunings. It would come with a factory tuning, by a factory tech. After that you can record another tuning if you like.

Justifying the cost of such a system based on how much you spend on tunings now is like justifying the purchase of a cell phone based on how many dimes you would have spent in a pay phone. You can (and will) tune your piano every time you play if you have this system. If you think about $100 every time you push the button, it easily justifies itself.

Don,
Congratulations and all the best for its success.
How will you bring it to market?

fingers

IMHO it sounds like a neat idea. The video is well done.

I am curious about the "tick counting" given that there are fundamentals and harmonics going on simultaneously but I imagine that is secret stuff.

Is there a price?

It sounds like you are explaining why the note does not sound perfect.

To me the video would be much more impressive if you demonstrated a short piece on the piano when it's out of tune, and then pressed the button, waited the full minute for it to be really in tune, and then played the piece a second time.

There is no doubt that a lot of thought, research and experimentation went into this project.

Here is something else I thought about… if the strings are never heated above 95*F, it would lead me to believe that the system can only work within certain parameters of the pianos current tuning… in other words, if it is way out of tune, as someone else has mentioned, will the system make enough of a change to get it in tune?

Seems to me it would only work to “fine tune” a piano that is not too far out to start with. Yet, and still, it is an invention worthy to be admired for its technological innovation.

By-the-way, if you don't mind me asking, (and someone else has already asked in this thread) how much would a system like this sell for, installed? Just curious…

Rick

Another potential market would be recording studios and live music venues, who often have great expenses associated with weekly or even more frequent tunings.

I think Don's cell phone analogy is a good one.

Well, okay then... If I only listen to C-4, the first note that was proclaimed to be "perfectly in tune" after one minute, I can easily hear that it is actually no where near being, perfectly in tune to my ear. Why not? I have an excellent sound card in my computer and I have Bose speakers.

The tuning range was a great concern in the beginning. Both Steinway and QRS (Story & Clark) were worried about the piano going out of range, with the logic that something under tension must eventually slacken over time. But since installing the system several years ago it has never gone out of range. It seems that it goes through a cycle throughout the year and returns to it's original pitch. The total variance appears to be about fifteen cents.

I think most of us agree that, no matter what, the demonstration in the video is impressive. The video shows a computerized system automatically improving the tuning of a unison of three notes which are clearly out of tune at the beginning of the video. The technology is ingenious and appears to have potential for being relatively inexpensive, lightweight and invisible.

But the claims that are made exceed what is shown in the video. The claim is that the system can tune the entire piano perfectly -- I understand this to mean roughly 'as well as a good technician' -- in one minute.

If the system is capable of this feat, and this is the claim made of the system, it is reasonable to expect that this is what should be demonstrated in the video.

I was trying to keep the video simple and easy to understand. It is easier to tell when a unison is out of tune than an interval. Tuning the rest of the strings is just a multiplication of this same thing.

The strings actually respond very quickly to the current. At 5 volts I can easily bend the pitch ten cents in about a second. Most of the time is taken with fine tuning and getting the pitch stable. Every few months I think of a way to get the time shorter and shorter.

The live portion of the video is actually a couple of years old. The circuit photos are relatively new. At the time, my little camera could only handle a couple of minutes of video. Now I have a larger memory chip. Perhaps I need to make another video. I suppose I could cut out part of the tuning process, which would be tedious and boring to watch, and just say "one minute later" in a caption. A minute is a long time to stare at a video watching nothing and listening to a cacophony. I don't want people to give up and close the video before they see it all.

I think this is wonderful. Like many new developments, several things could occur.

First, folks who do it the old way will fight it, just like the medical establishment fought the discovery of penicillin back in the 1930's.

Second, initially the new system might have a few bugs, and will be very expensive.

Third, many manufacturers will resist it, especially in the acoustic piano world, where new developments are shunned. To this day, people are dissing carbon fiber action parts.

Fourth, it could never catch on because of opposition, inability to get financing, etc, or any number of reasons unrelated to the merit of the system.

Fifth, if it ever gets in production, it will become progressivly less expensive and more reliable until it becomes virtually a standard, or a common and desirable option, like power windows or mirrors on a car. Those where very expensive and only on luxury cars at first.

I would love to have one of these systems on my piano. Having a piano in fresh tune every day is a heavenly dream.

There is no marketing department for your invention (yet) to make the perfect video; consider though that a slick salesman in a storefront would develop techniques for making a minute pass quickly.

"Would you like to have an espresso? Oh, look at that, the piano's already in tune! Let's go and try it out."

While you can't offer an espresso in a video, you could divert the viewer's attention in other ways, while still providing an experience similar to being there in person (which is to say: not cutting out any time in the process).

In practice, if one were to 'power up' the piano during a party (if one forgot to do so beforehand), it would be reasonable to lower the lid while the tuning is being done. (Although the actual process, including the cacophony, might be an attraction in itself).

Don,

Thanks for sharing this. How stable is this tuning? In other words, how long does the tuning last?

Seems like a much more simple (and cheap) method of using "servo motor" tuning pins!

Scott

Probably much like the "cacophony" of an orchestra tuning up, a wonderful sound, IMHO.

Servomotors are certainly not cheap, nor are their drivers, and there would have to be over 200 of them.

Actually, my first invention was a device that tuned the three unisons strings at once using a motor:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=bW4eAAA...ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA

It was supplanted by the self-tuner.

Intriguing to say the least.

I'm not quite sure just how the pitch is changed. The video clearly states that the string gets hotter, goes into tune, then when the current is turned off, the string cools and remains in tune.

1) There is no device turning the tuning pins to change the tension in the string, (and the tuning pin does not get significantly hotter so this shouldn't affect the pin block).

2) When a string warms up and cools back to the original temperature, physics tells me that the tension should return to the same level; and the string should be at the same pitch (or extremely close, barring slippage or yielding of the steel).

3) So what causes the pitch change in the string - is it a metallurgical process?

4) According to the video, the temperature only reaches a temperature of 35 degrees Celsius (which as stated is less than body temperature). This won't induce metallurgical changes in steel.

I'm not being critical, I'm being inquisitive. If this works, it could be a major step forward in piano technology.

Glenn

My understanding is that the process is continuous as long as the unit is turned on.

So there is an initial tuning process, then the same process that tuned it in the first place continues to monitor the strings, and add/not add current as necessary to keep it in tune.

Then when the tuning unit is shut off, the strings cool and the piano returns to essentially its tuning prior to turning the unit on.

No, that's "clearly" not what I said.

The system remains on while you play and the strings remain warm. You switch it off when you are done playing at which time it cools and goes back out of tune. It's just thermal expansion.

Here is the patent with a little more detail:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=d7wMAAA...ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA

Neat idea Don! What is the dissipated power in the strings to maintain the tuning on average?

Yes, this clears everything up nicely, I missed the part where the strings are kept warm. Thanks.

What's the typical power requirement to keep the strings warm - say for the Story and Clark piano in the video?

All in all, this seems to be an idea with potential. However let's not ignore the "set in concrete" traditions that so many hold about pianos.

I've been fortunate in having been to concerts by some well know pianists (Borge and Liberace, but also a number of classical performers); at every intermission, a technician came out and spent some considerable time fine-tuning the piano. Obviously piano tunings really don't last very long, and may be one reason that intermissions exist.

I can envision one small problem - damn, the power went out and my piano sounds like heck. Oh well, the DP won't work either.

Glenn

I view shows where I have to touch up the tuning at intermission as failures on my part. They are rare.

First of all I think it's a brilliant approach from an engineering standpoint, good luck with it! I do have a few questions:

1. It seems that the current needs to be maintained for the tuning to be held, is this correct?

2. Do the heavier bass strings require more current or a higher temperature differential than the higher pitched strings?

3. It seems that you can only lower the pitch of a string in its natural state, so it would seem that the system will not work on a string that is flat, is this correct?

4. Have you considered a system that uses stepper motors instead?

5. How much current is run through each string? Would the current in the string prevent this system from being used on an electric guitar?

I would think that a very cool demo would be to not only tune the piano, but also to quickly achieve alternate tunings such as a pythogorean tuning -- have you tried this? It would be cool to see an iPhone connected as the processor to achieve the tuning and have a "sexy" iPhone to display the current state of the tuning. I'm a software guy -- PM me if interested.

Anyway, as I said before -- very impressive piece of work!

I have been asked that before. But if the power goes out you're playing in the dark anyway.

The wattage depends on what time of year it is, etc. It varies anywhere from 700 to 1200 watts or so.

This is what I'm struggling with. All the forces in a very well tuned piano are conspiring to:

1) stretch the strings,

2) bend the tuning pins (I've heard of tuners doing this),

3) unwind the tuning pins (must be possible, otherwise why are oversize pins used),

All these factors reduce the string tension and lower the pitch. Talking to piano tuners, they often mention that a piano was so many cents flat, but I've never heard mention of a piano that went up in pitch.

If this is so, warming the strings can only make them expand (elementary physics of most common materials, and certainly true for steel) and thereby lose tension and thus lower the pitch.

How can warming a string that is flat raise its pitch to the "well tuned" pitch?

There is one case I can think of where warming would work, and that's when the soundboard gains moisture content, swells and the mid-section goes sharp relative to the bass and treble.

Glenn

I assumed that to use this system a tuner would be asked to tune the piano a little sharp, and then the system would take over. A tuner would still need to come occasionally -- maybe once every two years.

When it goes flat, I was understanding that the system will then tune the piano to a lower frequency than A=440, so that it's in tune with itself, at least. That is why I mentioned the unfortunate possibility of just one string going considerably flat -- the result would be that the whole piano goes flat.

One question this raises is how much the system can adjust the frequency of a string. 100 cents? Less? Does it depend on the register (less in the bass, for example?)

The energy cost for someone playing 2hrs a day at 12 cents per kWh seems to be in the range of $7 per month. Again, a drawback but not a dealbreaker.

Further to these comments, it would seem that the piano can be made to be in tune with itself if any string or strings go flat. But the piano can't then be at A440 which may limit the usefulness in an orchestral or recording situation.

Another puzzler - how can the initial tuner's tuning be duplicated or maintained if the overall pitch of the piano goes down to match a string in which the pitch has dropped?

Does scale design come into play here? Any of you techs have comments on this?

Glenn

Like I said before, the piano in my lab was strung and tuned in 2004 (while it was warm). It has never gone out of range since, nor does it appear that it will anytime soon.

The system offers the option to re-tune it at any time. There is a keyswitch under the piano. When you switch it, it warms the piano to a median temperature. Then you tune it. When you switch it back, the new tuning is stored and used from then on. I have never had to use this feature.

Thanks. This clarifies things considerably.

Starting with warm (lower tension strings) during the initial technician tuning provides "headroom" for the inevitable drop in pitch of strings with time.

I must have missed that point or never thought of it.

Now it's all making sense; and I see that this could be a breakthrough in piano technology. Not that it needed any.

Now it comes down to cost installed and gaining acceptance. From what I can see here (and had the space/money) for a grand, it would be worth pursuing.

Glenn

I already want it on all three of my pianos. Imagine never, ever to have that annoying feeling two days after a tuning when one unison goes slightly out, then four days later two more unisons go out, and again even more a week later . . . until you're just putting off having to tune the piano again, and getting less and less enjoyment out of it.

Admittedly I only get this feeling on the two less stable pianos I have (somehow the Hardman holds a tuning solidly for ages), but even on that piano, it would be nice never, ever to have to experience even a slow deterioration of the tuning again.

But I still want to see a demonstration of the fully tuned piano before I believe it's as good as claimed.

With all due respect to Don, and his self-tuning piano invention, I would have to see and hear it in person to believe that it would perfectly fine tune the piano with the push of a button... the middle C in the video sounded a little dissonant to me after it was said to be perfectly in tuned.

What the computer software says is at proper pitch may not be so in real life and to the human ear, taking inharmonisity (slight imperfections) and other factors into consideration.

I'm very particular about my pianos... I want them in tune, or at least reasonably in tune when I play (or at least try to ). I've learned to do that myself with a high degree of success and satisfaction that my piano is in tune… and I enjoy doing it (most of the time ).

If the self-tuning piano device works as represented, it may well have monumental implications for the piano industry… but I’m not convinced by watching a YouTube video. So, I guess I’m from Missouri on this one…

Rick

I agree with Rickster, having made similar observations to his.

While I welcome the innovation, I would need to see more.

I can understand how possibly it might help to maintain a tuning.

But as far as I'm concerned, a real tuning involves turning the tuning pins. After all, that is what they are for.

Don,

If you have a chance please reply to my post above -- I posted several questions and some thoughts for you.

Additionally, how many cents total can you lower the pitch of a string? Does it depend on the diameter of the string?

My main concern is that once a string goes flat at room temperature, then there is no way to tune it without a manual tuning, right? Can you tune the piano in real-time, i.e., while it's being played to optimize the tuning of each string as the ambient temperature changes in a room/on stage or as a string slowly goes flat?

If that can be done then I can see it augmenting a proper tuning, but never really replacing it unless you have some way to raise the pitch under computer control too. I love the idea of being able to achieve various alternate tunings under computer control (e.g. pythogorean I believe is what they are called, but I don't recall the technical term). I'm wondering if someone here can expound on the benefits of such a tuning. Thanks.

Or the tuning there everything is calculated and in line exactly with the harmonic series. That'd be cool.

Answer me this. According to the computer screen, the pitch was lowered on one string by at least 29 cents.

But I'm pretty sure my piano will not go 29 cents flat if I heat the room to 95 degrees. (I'm pretty sure since it gets to be over 100 degrees where I live, and I don't always have the air conditioning on).

Something doesn't add up.

I'm not going to try to speak for Don, but the idea is clearly that the piano is tuned a little sharp at room temperature. When the system heats up, the pitches fall and the piano is tuned to, say A=440. If some strings lose some tension, the system simply puts less current through those strings, and the piano is still up to pitch when the system is on.

Don has already said that during the last six years, none of the pitches has fallen low enough that the system cannot compensate. (It's not clear whether he meant that the piano still goes to A440, though, from what I understand.)

Charles, Thanks, that makes sense, though the sooner after the manual (slightly sharp) tuning the more current he's going to need to run through the strings. I wonder if he's measured what effect the regular expansion and contraction of the strings does to their life span and whether they are affected at all. I don't know what the duty cycle is of a typical piano string or how often they break or need to be replaced.

"First, folks who do it the old way will fight it, just like the medical establishment fought the discovery of penicillin back in the 1930's."

Well put.

It's very possible. But, hard to tell from the present point of view. Just to provide the opposite possibility, consider the Aurora Safety Car from 1957. It was built in order to reduce pedestrian injuries from collisions. Yes, those bulbous areas are relatively soft and are supposed to act like pillows. It may sound silly now, but it was forward-looking at the time, no doubt (view is of the front end).

Perhaps what's missing is that with the room at a higher temperature, the cast iron frame will also warm up and expand which compensates for the expanding strings. As the frame gets longer, it stretches the strings. While there is a difference in thermal coefficient of expansion between iron and steel, it's not terribly significant.

Glenn

It's an interesting proposal, but the strings will warm much faster than the cast iron, since they have such a small diameter. On a hot day, the air might go from 75 to 100 degrees in three hours. I think the cast iron would lag considerably behind the strings in reaching that temperature.

My understanding:

I think he said the strings (only) are warmed up during the initial manual tuning. Then when the manual tuning is complete, the warming system is turned off, the strings cool, get shorter, and will rise in pitch (they will all be sharper than A440 when cool).

If a string or two slip and go flat, the system is turned on, all the strings warm up, lowering the tension of all the strings, and also their pitch.

Of course, the strings that slipped are still flatter than the others, but then the system takes over and warms up each individual string to a temperature that matches it to the tuning of the strings that slipped.

Of course one cannot possibly warm up a flat string to match the pitch of strings that didn't slip (elementary physics). So the system starts the entire piano at a higher overall pitch, allowing the system "headroom" to adjust to slippage of some strings.

Glenn

I'm guessing the heater is turned on before regulation and voicing?

For the record, it was Rocket88 who said it first...

Credit where credit is due...

Rick

Not in my house! I keep it cold enough to use the down comforter in July.

I'm happy to see Don's progress. I've followed his journey with this for many years. I remain convinced it's an elegant idea that *will* ultimately succeed. And maybe make our old classics a little more obsolete.

Well Put.

Maybe now.

Wow! That's what I get for going out on Saturday night. I'll try to answer some more questions before you guys guess the whole thing into oblivion.

There is almost no limit to how far you can pull a string flat. While experimenting I have flattened strings more than 100 cents. The problem is they can get pretty hot. 95 F is an approximate *average* temperature. Obviously the strings are all at different temperatures depending on how far they have been tuned. They're not all at 95 F.

I deliberately tuned the three strings in the video to exaggerate and make the unison sound awful to better demonstrate the capability of the system. Normally all three strings go about the same degree sharp when the system is off and the unisons don't sound too bad. In fact the piano as a whole doesn't sound too bad. If you didn't know it was sharp, it sounds like a piano that was tuned maybe a few months ago. That's why it's hard to do a demo, since the difference is not that pronounced, especially with a crude recording like the one I made with my little digital camera.

As for the tension of the strings, an in-tune string always has the same tension regardless of its temperature. The tension and length are what decides the pitch. I am controlling that tension by controlling the temperature. The tension doesn't vary much more than when you're out of tune and your tech tunes it now.

Remember that this is simply copying a "recorded" tuning. The piano is manually tuned when warm. At that time the tech takes all of the technical aspects of the tuning into mind (stretching, inharmonicity, etc.). When he's done, each string is at a given fundamental frequency. That's what is stored and repeated. All the harmonics of that string follow that fundamental, so returning to that exact frequency always produces the same result.

Here is a radio interview I did a couple of years ago on NPR that might explain some more:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=878091

Okay, that explains it a little better... the piano is tuned to theoretical perfection by a real piano technician first, and this tuning is used as a bench-mark for subsequent electronic tunings.

That makes more sense.

Wishing you all the best with your fascinating invention, Don.

Rick

And, if the piano is already 1/4 tone flat? Which happens here in Michigan every winter. It would heat the wires and tune it flat, apparently, leaving the piano flat of pitch?

I can't help but wonder what heating the strings might do to the felt of the hammers and voicing, eventually, after many hours or days of use.

This is an awesome idea and I'd LOVE to have it on my piano.

I tune my piano myself and am very aware of how quickly they become 'imperfect'.

To be able to have it perfectly in tune every time I play it would wonderful.

Mr. Gilmore has been working on this a long time and I feel certain he has the majority of the bugs ironed out. I expect a few additional problems could crop up if it's put in full production somewhere. The questions here are definitely valid to help me understand how this works.

Mr. Gilmore can feel free to install it on my piano free and I promise to demo it for anyone

Good job.

For someone who is worried about the heat issue, it would presumably be possible to tune the piano less sharp, and so require less heat for it to be in tune when the system is activated.

The drawback would be that the tuning would fall below A440 more quickly, and so would require a manual tuning more frequently than otherwise (but still much less frequently than a standard piano).

Don Gilmore, you have a PM.

Wow, this is a brilliant idea!

Not sure if it will remove the need of a conventional tuning from time to time in areas where seasonal temperature and humidity changes are big and piano is in a room where they are not controlled, but anyway, it looks very promising.

Regards,
Kurt.-

You could have the system alert you when an individual string is flat. Then the user could raise that one string enough for the piano could maintain 440. With such a system, the end user need not be a great tuner, just don't break any strings

By the way, I also am of the camp that needs to see a better end result before I become convinced.

Yes, the alert would be a nice addition. It's an innovative idea, I'm still not sold on the idea of needing to continually run a current through each string. I think for the system to be more effective it needs to be augmented and I have some ideas. One feature I would like to see is the ability to continually correct the tuning of the strings during a performance if need be. But like I said, I think the system really requires an extra component that it's currently missing.

I am still waiting for a system that will play the notes I meant to play, rather than the notes I did play!

It's been done -- it's called MIDI!

Never in my life have I wanted to play like MIDI plays.

All of these mechanical methods just suck the life out of music.

MIDI is "perfect" in the sense that everything is correct -rythm, pitch, etc- but is too mechanical. Therefore, you can say music is never perfect, but it can get close.

It will also perfectly reproduce a real performance that you record to MIDI format - with all its imperfections in timing, velocity etc. Of course, if you just use a sequencer to create your MIDI stream, then it could seem too mechanical - except all modern programs have algorithms to put imperfections back in to make the performance sound more human. A MIDI recording of a real performance is just like the piano rolls of years gone by.

Paul.

Actually, some of piano roll manufacturing methods are JUST like step-MIDI recording:


(Video shows real-time entry method as well... a good little vid!)

I don't think it would be practical to "tune on the fly". One of the keys to the system's accuracy is the fact that the strings are always sustained steadily at the same constant volume, both when recording the hand-tuning and when performing the automatic tuning. Striking a key causes a sudden spike in volume, followed by a gradual decay. There is actually a small difference in pitch between the loud and soft volumes. Louder tends to be sharper.

It is important for many reasons for a tech to tune striking firmly and softly and comparing harmonics between notes, etc. But when he's done, each string is sustained at a given volume and the fundamental is carefully measured. When the self-tuner sustains again when it tunes, it sustains at this same volume and the pitch is adjusted to precisely the same frequency as when the original hand-tuning was done.

It also makes the system simpler and faster, since the musician doesn't have to play through all the notes, one at a time, and wait for each to tune.

Hi Don,

Don't get me wrong, I think you're invention is brilliant! I was just thinking out loud here. You obviously know volumes more about what can and can't be done. Have you had any requests for your system to put the piano into various pythagorean tunings depending on what key a piece is being played in? I think your system would really shine here, as I understand that the way pianos are normally tuned is a bit of a compromise so that a piece will sound good in any key.

Don -

You said your first patent used a servo to tune the three unisons at once. Was it the expense of the servos and control boards that caused to to seek another method? Are very strong motors needed to be to handle the tension?

Actually, I did with an ordinary gearmotor. Here is the patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=bW4eAAA...ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA

It was slow and clumsy. The self-tuner is much simpler, faster and easier.

Took a quick look at the patent list. This is staggering - first filing date December 29, 1980.

You are a very patient man. I wish you all the good success in the world.

There are a few comments which are questioning or perhaps even a bit negative, but I personally think they are based on misunderstanding the physics principles involved so it would be neither prudent nor productive to address them.

I'm convinced this will work.

Can't wait to discuss with my technician/rebuilder friend - he is very open minded and will understand this concept immediately.

Glenn

Don,

You apply a dedicated current (voltage) to each string in the piano. The current is applied at the pinblock end of the string, flows through the string to the tail end, where the hitch-pin of the plate acts as "ground".

While the bridges are electrical insulators, the front termination of the speaking length is not. The strings are connected electrically at the front end, because the agraffes / V-bar / capo bar are all connected to the plate.

So, how do you control each string's current (voltage) separately if
... the two ends of each string are connected via the plate?
... the pinblock end of one string is connected with the next via agraffes, V-bar, capo bar etc.?

Does the plate not cause a short circuit across the string, and shunt currents from one string to the next?

If the cast iron is sufficiently conductive to act as "ground" at the tail end of the piano, why does it not short-circuit the front end of the strings?

Very good questions. In the text of the patent he says that the strings need to be isolated everywhere except at the hitch pins. So the agraffes and/or capo bar have to be changed to something else or modified? Won't that change the piano tone?

And if the agraffes have to be changed or altered, does that make installation to an existing piano more difficult?

Sam

Just getting back to the computer.

OK, first of all, I didn't start in 1980 (I was in high school then!). You were probably looking at some of the "prior art" dates. I developed the mechanical tuner in the late nineties, then the idea for the self-tuner came to me in about 2002. There has been a lot of development work since.

There are two basic ways to insulate the strings and I have done them both. Originally, I used plastic (Delrin) agraffes and string rests. This worked and the tone was unaffected, but it didn't hold up over time. I then went through a series of different agraffes including Garolite, bone, antler, brass with several different coatings including diamond, and several different designs that involved ceramic inserts.

The second way is to apply current at the hitch pin end. This requires the string to be split into two separate, independent strings (rather than just hooking around the pin). I did this with a brass anchor that slipped over the hitch pin and had two ceramic-insulated holes. The string passed through and then I crimped a bit of the end over against itself and silver-brazed it. This was like a knot to keep it from pulling back through the hole. Bass strings were strung with a small piece of Garolite tube slipped over each hitch pin and the string loop around that.

This way worked as well, but was not very practical for a field installation. I finally found a suitable agraffe material: PEEK (poly-ether-ether-ketone) that works great.

Ah, so there's more to it than installing the sensors, actuators and pinblock electrodes...

Interesting that you should end up with PEEK. I use a functionalised version of this material in my work, but for completely different applications (ion-conducting membrane with high thermal and chemical stability).

I find it interesting that your system can significantly change the tension of the strings by raising the temperature slightly, whereas the tension of the strings doesn't vary much when the room temperature changes. As someone said earlier, this is probably explained by the frame expanding to compensate for the strings' expansion.

But does this mean that if you were to enclose the piano in a thermally insulating box and turn it on for a long time, the frame would gradually heat up, prompting the system to heat the strings even more to maintain a temperature differential, causing the frame to heat even more and so on, leading to thermal runaway?

Of course nobody would put their piano in a box, but the thermal conductivity of wood is rather low so it might be a real issue when the lid is closed: it's not easy to get rid of 1000 W power (especially for smaller pianos), so in order to avoid reaching harmful temperatures is there a practical limit to how long the piano can be turned on?

http://www.gizmag.com/gilmore-self-tuning-piano-system/21425/

Hi Don,

Great article...I hope it's a go for you, and that you can have one for existing pianos at some point in the future. What I wouldn't give to have your system in my M&H Grand, along with the LX and Ampico...I could have concerts everyday and not worry about the piano going out of tune!

Looks like it is starting to evolve into something quite nice. I still do not understand how the device can increase the natural frequency of a string since apparently the only adjustment is to the amount of current flow, that is, there appears to be no way to increase the tension by cooling.

However, best of luck and I am looking forward to continued postings on your progress.

Mr. Gilmore:

Excellent!

I have an electrical/electronic background in addition to a piano tuning background and kept wondering how you would be able to apply the current to each string individually when they were electrically common at the upper termination and the hitch pin. You don’t explicitly say so, but it must be that only the upper, non-speaking lengths from the tuning pin to the upper termination is conducting individual currents. And just like in manual tuning, as this segment’s tension is changed, the string’s tension renders across the termination to the speaking length. I have to wonder what sort of algorithms you use, or might develop in the future, to deal with one of the most important parts of tuning, the rendering of the strings. It may shed light on what manual tuners do.

It does bother me a little bit when you keep referring to “5 volts” when it is really current that does the heating... But I agree that the tuning pin would see hardly any direct heating. No more than a very heavy extension cord would when plugging in an electric toaster.

Some of the arguments against the system are interesting but do not have merit:

The first has to do with resistance to losing employment in tuning pianos. Well, are piano tuners interested in servicing the piano or servicing the customer? I mean, isn’t having a piano stay in tune their job? Besides those that are tuning now will have plenty of ordinary pianos to tune for as long as they may tune. And those that may otherwise get into tuning would just find other employment. But then again, imagine John Q. Public walking into a showroom and listening to pianos that are all wonderfully in tune! There could very easily be a piano boom similar to when player pianos were first introduced.

Yes, the contact boards underneath the pinblock would be in the way when removing the action. But inserts and thumbscrews could make the contact boards easily removable.

Will an automatic tuning be as good as the real thing? Well if not as good as an hour old tuning, certainly better than a month old tuning! But with time and the right algorithms to deal with rendering, it just might be better.

And I see no reason that this system would not work on uprights as a retro-fit. The contact boards would simply be installed at the head of the pins.

I do wonder about the resonators affecting the tone of a fine piano, though. Anything added inside the piano does have some kind of muffling effect.

Anyway, I wish I had a few millions to invest in this. (Heck, I wish I had a few millions period!) Best of luck.

[Edit:] Oops, I didn't read all the pages and didn't know about the electrical insulation at the upper termination. But I am not so sure it is necessary. Without the insulation, only the upper non-speaking length would be heated. But as the string renders, it would need less and less current to change the tuning.

It would work as a retro-fit, but it wouldn't be a simple retrofit. If the piano has agraffes, then they have to be changed to something non-conductive, which means restringing the piano. If it's just a capo bar change like an upright, then all the strings have to at least be loosened so that electrically insulating material can be added.

So it's not as simple as just buying a kit and bolting it on.

Am I right, or am I totally confused? (Wouldn't be the first time).

Sam

AMEN!!!

Here's a self tuning guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qw1j2CLdwo&feature=related

Any long term effects from heated strings on the bridge, tuning pin torque, etc. ???

Gentlemen:

If you came up with a way to eliminate tooth decay, should you ignore it so that dentists could keep thier business? If you could invent a way so that you would never have to change a car's oil, would you abandon it to avoid slowing down the work at Jiffy Lube? Probably not...unless you're a Luddite!

This device is not the death-knell for tuners, nor was that ever my intention. There are over 1,000,000 NEW pianos produced each year. If I thought my system could be intalled in even one percent of those, and never retrofitted, I would jump for joy.

Besides, who do you think is going to be doing the installation? You might be able to comfortably retire on these things!

I don't think this would work. Think about the overpull that's needed before the string actually renders. To get the front duplex to expand this much, by thermal means only, I think you'd need to heat it red-hot. Even more so on those strings where the front duplex is very short relative to the speaking length, e.g. lowest/farthest row of tuning pins in mid-range or tenor. And in the bass, one can actually see the rendering movement, if the string is more than a few cents off. Given the short length of the front duplex, that's a huge movement to achieve only by thermal expansion of the front duplex.

Methinks you'd turn your pie-anna into a veritable toaster.

(Purely intuitive. I haven't done any calcs involving thermal expansion coefficients here.)

Mark:

I was having the same second thoughts, and like you have not done the math.

No, the entire string is warmed, from the tuning pin to the hitch pin. This avoids differential tension across the agraffes and bridge that normally has to be pounded out with heavy playing, like when a conventional tuning is done.

The smaller, duplex segments of string expand less, since linear thermal expansion is a function of the total length, and these segments are obviously shorter than the vibrating part of the string. But "strain" is also a linear function of total length and is what relates the change in length to the change in tension. So a given change in temperature results in a given change in tension, regardless of length. The tension on the short side of the agraffe changes by the same amount that the long side does and there is no net difference across the agraffe and no need to pound it out.

Mr. Gilmore:

Thanks for the clarification. I would think the the heat sink properties of the pin and agraffe would keep the non-speaking segment at a slightly higher tension than the speaking segment, assuming that the tensions were equal before the current was applied. But that is normally a good thing. The hammer striking the speaking portion can only increase it's tension, never decrease it, so it is better to have the non-speaking portion a little higher in tension for reasons of stability.

I see all sorts of possibilities, as well as hurdles (-:

According to how well the current (by which I mean "current" or "i") algorithm is written and "adapts" to the speed with which a string reaches its desired pitch - this could work very, very well.

Yes, it is very dependent on the reference tuning and that in turn is very dependent of the individual tuner/technician (not to offend anyone by not giving them their full professional title, etc.)

As long as you don't let the room get TOO much hotter than the 95 (or so) degrees at which the reference tuning was done - but who wants to PLAY in those conditions anyway ? (-:

The principle of this idea is sound, and there's no doubt that it is possible to accurately reproduce a reference tuning. As an engineer I've bought off-the-shelf (albeit expensive) components to build rigs measuring displacement to within 0.3 microns, sampling at 20,000 samples per second. Blimey, when you think of what a scanning electron mircroscope can do, there is no doubt whatsoever that an engineering solution can out-perform a human.

So, let us focus on the 'reference tuning'. Why not provide this solution from a different angle. The basic factory tuning is close, but sharp so that heating can produce the desired correction in pitch. Why not then have your local tuner do your tuning for you:

1) you have a button on the keyslip for selecting the key to tune: you press the button, and play the key you want to tune. This note is then 'selected'.
2) you then press the same or another button to toggle between the three strings of the note (if it's a trichord). That individual string is then selected.
3) the tuner then uses his or her felt and wedges as normal, but instead of a tuning hammer, presses a '+' or '-' button to alter the pitch of the selected string, by 1/100 of a hz or whatever you choose.

Brilliantly, having set the pitch of a given string, it can be held to that pitch as the rest of the instrument is tuned. Also, tuners won't get so much elbow and shoulder ache!

Secondly, if this system works, get rid of the wooden pin block and tuning pins which are not required for a one-off or once-in-a-blue-moon adjustment. Surely a means can be found to 'apply' and fix a pre-conditioned string under tension, in the factory using specialist equipment. This would eliminate a relatively labour intensive part of the process, which is one of the usual parts that fails in time.
Imagine a piano with hitch pins at either end of the string? The saving would cover the cost of the electronics which you've added.

Personally, I'd never modify any of my current pianos as I view them as historical instruments. However, if I was buying a new instrument, and the self tuning part was a really neat, invisible installtion, I'd get one!

Good luck Don!

Screw stringer, or geared stringing - Brinsmead, built in the UK around 1880....

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1484727/Brinsmead_piano_pin_block.html

I think Mr. Gilmores' invention would be a nice feature for some people. I'm not threatened by it. Like he says, there are so many pianos out there already. Dealers could offer it as an add-on at the point of sale. Maybe it would help sell some pianos. I think that the greater overall struggle, for all of us, is to get the public more interested in pianos. If this helps, great.

If a company were to produce a piano with an alternative tuning system today, then piano owners would be able to tune their own piano without this invention. In the days when the Brinsmead and the M&H screwstringer were built, the owner would have had to call a tuner anyways. A tuner would have still been needed to set the temperament, etc. So, it didn't save having to call a tuner. And tuners probably didn't like have to fidget with this device, when they we already accustomed to tuning pins. So, I can see why it didn't become more popular at the time. But now, there are many electronic tuning devices. If pianos had gear tuners, piano owners could easily tune themselves. Each piano could be provided one relatively simple ETD. It wouldn't have to be as complex as the one's technicians use. It wouldn't have to measure inharmonicity to accomodate different pianos, for example. All that could be preset for one piano. This might be the more practical way forward in the future to make pianos tunable by owners.