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#1830311 - 01/23/12 02:26 PM Inside the AvantGrand N1
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
On Wednesday I have a guy from a Yamaha certified repair center coming over to fix a little issue with a black key. It makes a woody noise when released, probably some damping material missing.

I will try to get some fotos of the inside. I'm posting this now to ask if anyone wants me to do additional stuff, maybe measure the key length or something?

Edit: Alright, here are all the images I could take.

As for measurements, since he ended up not needing to remove the whole action (merely changing the angle of one of those screws between the keys in the front fixed the noisy release sound of that one black key) I could only measure little, and not very accurately. Basically holing the tape measure in the air.

The length of the key, the whole thing from front to back, seems to be about 480 mm (about 18.9 inches), key depth measured at the front of white key was 26 mm (little more than an inch). Hope that helps a bit.

It wasn't too bad exposing the action. Basically unscrew the top row of screws on the back, then you can remove the top cover with the speakers (there is one cable to be unplugged first, seen in image 7). Then you have to remove the black thing in the middle as in image 12 and 13. Then remove the lid in the front which can be lifted out easily.

We talked about how much more work it would be to completely remove the action and we didn't think it'd be much more effort. In the last image there is one of the screws that would probably need to be loosened, and a couple more around the middle of the action which would need a long screw driver. Most likely the whole action could then be slided out.

He had a service manual describing everything. Asked him to email it to me, but sadly he's not allowed to do that. cool

The "guide pin" he offered to lube to lighten the action are those visible in picture 16 to 19 with the red felt material around them. After examining them we both concluded that it would probably not help much since there is very little friction there to begin with.

1


2


3


4 (sensors)


5


6


7


8


9


10


11


12


13


14


15


16


17
[img]http://i44.tinypic.com/35mjzx0.jpg[/img]

18
[img]http://i40.tinypic.com/add8pw.jpg[/img]

19
[img]http://i44.tinypic.com/v6q2xz.jpg[/img]

20
[img]http://i44.tinypic.com/2edtxzl.jpg[/img]


Edited by Gigantoad (01/25/12 02:27 PM)

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#1830360 - 01/23/12 03:07 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
Yes as a fellow N1 owner and looking to get my action regulated, I would love to see photos, measure the key depth, etc. may I ask how you or the technician is getting to the action? I hear the N1s are tricky to get to the action.
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Yamaha AvantGrand N1
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#1830379 - 01/23/12 03:23 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
If you can take a good picture of the under-key sensors and the hammer sensors, that would be great.

There's a lot of talk and uncertainty about this dual sensor system: (1) whether the hammer sensors are optical or they the rubber type that most DP's have (2) which set of sensors does velocity and which does damper, etc.

Since people have been talking about regulation, if you could take pictures of as much as the regulatable parts of the action too, that would be great. Basically it would be nice to know things like if you changed the keyboard weight, would it affect the velocity calculation somehow.

Measuring key length is also great, though we have a good idea of what is probably is.

I'm looking forward to whatever photos you are able to get!

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#1830427 - 01/23/12 04:28 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
I second the key length (pivot to played end of a white key). Yamaha implied it was the same as that of a large grand action, but others have said it is shorter, so it would be nice to be able to resolve this.

I second the key switch as well, wondering mainly if it is optical or rubber.

Pics of the main brain board might be useful too.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1830474 - 01/23/12 05:25 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: PianoZac]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Yes as a fellow N1 owner and looking to get my action regulated, I would love to see photos, measure the key depth, etc. may I ask how you or the technician is getting to the action? I hear the N1s are tricky to get to the action.


I have no idea, I will try to watch how he opens the thing. He is n't a piano technician, just a general service guy for Yamaha and other brands. I chose him from a list on the Yamaha site that they pointed me to after I wrote to their support.

I asked him if he would be able to lighten the touch, but as expected I would need a proper piano technician who would probably spend a whole afternoon changing the weight on each key.

He did talk to Yamaha about it apparently. They said he could try to lube some kind of "guide pin" or something? I can't properly translate it, nor do I know what exactly they meant by it. I know precious little about piano actions. He offered to do it for CHF 150 (about $160 at current rates), but I really doubt it will help much.

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#1831629 - 01/25/12 02:24 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Updated the original post. Last 4 images don't show up for some reason, but you can click the links.

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#1831655 - 01/25/12 03:14 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
Great job on the pics! Thank you for sharing. I'm going to just play my N1 for a while longer and see if it loosens up some. If not, no big deal. I would guess taking the N1 apart must have been a task with the speakers and wiring, etc. what did you have done to your N1? Did the guy do anything to your action? Is it back together? Does it play any differently? Sorry for all the questions just a very curious fellow N1 owner. Thanks again Gigantoad.

Sorry I got ahead of myself, did he do anything else to your action other than the fix to your key? Also how long have you had your N1?


Edited by ZacharyForbes (01/25/12 03:22 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
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#1831665 - 01/25/12 03:23 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks!

Too bad you didn't measure the key length to the key pivot post, that's the most important in terms of mechanical advantage as perceived by the player. Overall length doesn't mean too much.

Comparing #5 to #11 there seems to be a huge difference in hammer weight grading from bass to treble. Those bass weights look particularly massive, I can imagine why people say the AG has a heavy feel.

The brain board pics unfortunately don't have enough resolution to read any of the IC numbers.

Those look like individual amplifier boards in #2.

#4 is very interesting, the optical sensors on the hammers use fiber optics, not something I would have expected. It looks like the fibers are terminated at that block in #13. And I wonder if this is just a single sensor on the hammer? Perhaps they have a sensor on the key and then use the time difference between them instead of a third sensor?

Where are the speakers in #7, #8, and #9 located? They look rather small, perhaps 5" diameter max?

I assume those round wooden things in #16 - #18 are the letoff buttons.

I'll add this to the "DPs Exposed!" thread - thanks again!
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1831670 - 01/25/12 03:26 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: PianoZac]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Great job on the pics! Thank you for sharing. I'm going to just play my N1 for a while longer and see if it loosens up some. If not, no big deal. I would guess taking the N1 apart must have been a task with the speakers and wiring, etc. what did you have done to your N1? Did the guy do anything to your action? Is it back together? Does it play any differently? Sorry for all the questions just a very curious fellow N1 owner. Thanks again Gigantoad.


I have edited the text of the original post as well to describe the procedure as best as I could. It wasn't too bad really smile

He fixed an issue with a black key that made a louder noise than the other keys when releasing it. Turned out it hit one of those screws between the keys (best visible in image 19). By adjusting that screw a little the key now moves freely again.

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#1831674 - 01/25/12 03:32 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Online   content
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Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2422
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: dewster
Perhaps they have a sensor on the key and then use the time difference between them instead of a third sensor?


There is definitely an optical key sensor...if it's very dark in the room you can see a gentle red light emanating from between the keys, which I assume is something to do with the sensors. Seeing these very welcome pictures from Gigantoad seems to answer the question about whether the hammer sensors are optical or rubber buttons.
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#1831716 - 01/25/12 04:52 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yeah, I think we've always known the key sensors are optical, but the hammer sensors we didn't know about.

So can you guys explain how you know the hammer sensors are optical? It seems like the sensor is out of sight. Or are those yellow tabs attached to the hammer shanks in #4 a way of breaking a beam of light? And then the light goes down the optical fibers and is actually sensed in some location all together. Is that right?

Are we still thinking that hammer sensors calculate the velocity while key sensors govern the damper? I only see one fiber coming out of each key (and one going in) which makes me wonder if the hammer sensors govern the dampers (you would need two paths to be broken in order to calculate velocity).


Edited by gvfarns (01/25/12 04:59 PM)

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#1831734 - 01/25/12 05:06 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
It seems those tabs on the hammers move up through those slits and the yellow thingies on top somehow measure that movement in some optical way. I don't think there is anything more hidden underneath.

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#1831737 - 01/25/12 05:09 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5281
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
On the GranTouch, the first generation hybrid from Yamaha, there is a metal tab under every key that breaks the optical beam when the key is depressed.

I'm sure the N series is the same.
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#1831763 - 01/25/12 05:46 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2422
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
So can you guys explain how you know the hammer sensors are optical?


Well, they are connected with fibre optic cabling - this is not my area but I assume they are therefore optical sensors?
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#1831768 - 01/25/12 05:56 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Erard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 51
Loc: Italy
Thanks Gigantoad, very interesting pictures indeed!

Originally Posted By: Gigantoad

The length of the key, the whole thing from front to back, seems to be about 480 mm (about 18.9 inches), key depth measured at the front of white key was 26 mm (little more than an inch).


I measured the length of the keys on my C3 and they are also 480mm long (more or less). So it's possible that this action has the same geometry as the C3's.
It's interesting that the repetition levers are not made of wood (photo #4 and #11, the white levers between the hammer shanks) - looks like nylon or something similar.

Originally Posted By: dewster

#4 is very interesting, the optical sensors on the hammers use fiber optics, not something I would have expected. It looks like the fibers are terminated at that block in #13. And I wonder if this is just a single sensor on the hammer? Perhaps they have a sensor on the key and then use the time difference between them instead of a third sensor?


Dewster, I remember seeing the action of a silent grand from Yamaha. There is a hole in the shutter.
If I remember correctly, when you press the key at one point, as the shank goes up, the light is interrupted. At the end of the stroke the light passes through the hole again. So the time the sensor goes dark is proportional to the speed of the hammer, similar to two sensor.
I think the sensor under the key, besides "lifting" the dampers, allows the system to know when the light interruption is from the hammer coming down, so that no note is triggered.
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Yamaha C3M - V-Piano

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#1831822 - 01/25/12 07:02 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Erard]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Erard
Dewster, I remember seeing the action of a silent grand from Yamaha. There is a hole in the shutter.
If I remember correctly, when you press the key at one point, as the shank goes up, the light is interrupted. At the end of the stroke the light passes through the hole again. So the time the sensor goes dark is proportional to the speed of the hammer, similar to two sensor.
I think the sensor under the key, besides "lifting" the dampers, allows the system to know when the light interruption is from the hammer coming down, so that no note is triggered.

That doesn't seem entirely foolproof. What if you play a note light enough for the edge of shutter to just barely obscure the beam before falling back - couldn't that cause a false trigger?

If they have some trick in software to somehow guard against this, might that sometimes quash a valid trigger?

The way to do this unambiguously (i.e. correctly) is to have two sensors, not two events with a single sensor.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1832064 - 01/26/12 02:59 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: dewster]
Erard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 51
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: dewster

That doesn't seem entirely foolproof. What if you play a note light enough for the edge of shutter to just barely obscure the beam before falling back - couldn't that cause a false trigger?

If they have some trick in software to somehow guard against this, might that sometimes quash a valid trigger?

The way to do this unambiguously (i.e. correctly) is to have two sensors, not two events with a single sensor.


That's a good point.
Then maybe it's the key that triggers the note, and the hammer sensor is used only to compute the speed? Or a combination of both?
In the case you describe, the key would be up and no note would be triggered.

Here is an image of the shutter of a C3S:


The oval shape of the hole seems to account for hammer checking, as the hammer goes down a little bit after hitting the string.
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).

This is what Yamaha says in the specs for the C3S:

Hammer Sensors
88 one-beam, two-point optical fiber sensors
Key Sensors
88 two-beam, four-point optical fiber sensors (key-release velocity sensing)

The 'key release velocity sensing' bit makes things even more interesting....


Edited by Erard (01/26/12 08:32 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha C3M - V-Piano

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#1832088 - 01/26/12 04:48 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5281
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I believe on my GranTouch there were two sets of optical sensors, one to measure the velocity of the hammer and the other to register key on\key off - the piece of metal embedded into the bottom of the key which interrupted the light.

There were also, of course, sensors for the three pedals.

I'm fairly certain this is a mature technology.
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website

mp3\wav files

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#1832196 - 01/26/12 10:03 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Erard]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.

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#1832258 - 01/26/12 11:39 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
I'll be honest, I don't really care much for the tech specs of my N1. It plays as fast as I want, it doesn't drop notes, and offers the best playing and practicing experience I've had on a non acoustic grand. I'd have to say without a doubt, because of the N1, and the ability to spend my time practicing on its acoustic action, my technique has progressed leaps and bounds. And there's no transition going to and fro acoustic pianos like there always used to be.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1832294 - 01/26/12 12:42 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Erard]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks for that picture Erard!

Originally Posted By: Erard
In the case you describe, the key would be up and no note would be triggered.

As long as the key and hammer sensors are somehow physically calibrated together. However, there's a fair amount of slop in a key/hammer mechanism which might limit the precision of this calibration or make it difficult to carry out. No one likes to manufacture products that need excessive tweaking on the assembly line.

Originally Posted By: Erard
This is what Yamaha says in the specs for the C3S:

Hammer Sensors
88 one-beam, two-point optical fiber sensors
Key Sensors
88 two-beam, four-point optical fiber sensors (key-release velocity sensing)

The 'key release velocity sensing' bit makes things even more interesting....

When they say "two-point" for a single sensor I believe they are describing the way a detected beam at the hammer can either mean the hammer is down or up but not within a certain region in between, the transitions in and out of the region marking two distinct positions/times. Doing this with two beams at the key gives what they call "four-point". Not sure what Yamaha is doing under the key, but with two beams you could easily do a Gray Code on the position and know for certain which of four quadrants it currently resides in, and the transitions would give you three distinct position/time detections.

If they are using the key-up velocity then I can see why they have two sensors on each key. And they probably convinced themselves that this, combined with a single sensor on the hammer with two positions, was sufficient to differentiate the various hammer/key scenarios. My feeling is that it is a bit too tricky.

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I'm fairly certain this is a mature technology.

It could still have quirks and bugs, particularly if there is software involved.

Has anyone here experienced an AG misfiring (note not playing when it should, note velocity obviously incorrect, etc.)?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1832378 - 01/26/12 02:52 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2422
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: dewster
Has anyone here experienced an AG misfiring (note not playing when it should, note velocity obviously incorrect, etc.)?


Thankfully no. It has never done anything untoward at all. Neither did the GranTouch I owned for a few years previously. I think Dave is right, the technology is both mature and in my experience extremely reliable.

Cheers,

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#1832397 - 01/26/12 03:34 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
I haven't experienced droppped notes like what has been widely documented with the RD700GXF/RD700NX but I have played a note that didn't sound. It's very very rare, but it has happened. The AGs aren't bug proof and they aren't perfect, but they're the closest thing to playing a quality acoustic grand piano you can get out of the non acoustic world. I am very happy with mine.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1832472 - 01/26/12 05:49 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5281
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I've had a few notes that I expected to hear and they didn't sound. To be fair, I've had the same happen on an acoustic so I assume the problem was me.
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#1832596 - 01/26/12 10:01 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
I haven't experienced droppped notes like what has been widely documented with the RD700GXF/RD700NX but I have played a note that didn't sound. It's very very rare, but it has happened. The AGs aren't bug proof and they aren't perfect, but they're the closest thing to playing a quality acoustic grand piano you can get out of the non acoustic world. I am very happy with mine.

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I've had a few notes that I expected to hear and they didn't sound. To be fair, I've had the same happen on an acoustic so I assume the problem was me.

Interesting. Not saying that's necessarily what's going on, but killing a note rather than playing it due an ambiguous hammer sensor scenario is what I would probably do faced with the AG sensor configuration. But if I designed it I think I'd put a second real sensor on each hammer. And if money was no object I'd put continuous positional sensors on the hammers and keys.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1832601 - 01/26/12 10:22 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
Dewster, I'm confident with your expertise, you'd most certainly come up with oe real monster of a DP. The only problem, is none of us coud afford it! smile
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Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1832620 - 01/26/12 11:23 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I've had a few notes that I expected to hear and they didn't sound. To be fair, I've had the same happen on an acoustic so I assume the problem was me.


That's my experience too. It's easy to conclude it's performer error, but I have experienced instances with the N2 where I was surprised the note didn't sound. I haven't gone back and tried to repeat the issue.
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#1856161 - 03/04/12 03:35 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Singleton Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
I just completely dismantled my (brand new) N1 because one of the keys regularly got stuck. (The problem was that the felt in the middle hole of the key in question was sticking out a little, preventing the key from moving smoothly.)

There was the question above as to how the position of the keys is tracked: There are two light barriers for each key, one easily visible on top of the keys in this bridge running across, and the other below the keys where you press them. From the way it's built, it's not clear to me why two sensors are needed.

There was also the question above as to how to take the N1 apart. It's fairly simple: Loosen the four screws along the upper edge of the back wall and you can slide the lid forward, disconnect the speaker cable and then lift the lid off. Everything else is just as simple and mostly self-explanatory. The only tricky thing for me was when reassembling the whole thing, I had trouble with the two long screws that adjust the heigth of this slat right above the keyboard in the front. You've got to leave the screws in there and just remove the (funny looking and ackwardly shaped) nuts - or you might end up ruining the screws as I did.)

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#1856204 - 03/04/12 04:51 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Singleton]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2422
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Singleton
I just completely dismantled my (brand new) N1 because one of the keys regularly got stuck......You've got to leave the screws in there and just remove the (funny looking and ackwardly shaped) nuts - or you might end up ruining the screws as I did.)


And you've just voided your warranty. Why would you do this yourself instead of calling the dealer you bought it from, or Yamaha? Crazy....
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#1856210 - 03/04/12 05:00 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: EssBrace]
Dave Horne Offline
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Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Singleton
I just completely dismantled my (brand new) N1 because one of the keys regularly got stuck......You've got to leave the screws in there and just remove the (funny looking and ackwardly shaped) nuts - or you might end up ruining the screws as I did.)


And you've just voided your warranty. Why would you do this yourself instead of calling the dealer you bought it from, or Yamaha? Crazy....


He did not void his warranty.

When I had work done on my GranTouch, I opened the piano for the tech and showed him what I had done which was to stuff foam to prevent rattles and apply tape and\or plastic ties to keep wires and cable from vibrating against something.

I've made minor changes to my N3 ... and posted those improvements here and to Yamaha. There was no talk of voiding my warranty.
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#1856237 - 03/04/12 06:23 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
MacMacMac Offline
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It's good to know that the warranty was not a problem. But I wouldn't dream of fixing (or even trying to fix) a brand new item by myself, especially given that there's a warranty. And even more especially after spending, what, $7000+ on it!

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#1856239 - 03/04/12 06:25 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
There was no talk of voiding my warranty.


Did Yamaha state this specifically?
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#1856244 - 03/04/12 06:41 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Kawai James]
Dave Horne Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
There was no talk of voiding my warranty.


Did Yamaha state this specifically?


No, common sense did.
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#1856308 - 03/04/12 10:00 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
Melodialworks Music Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


He did not void his warranty.


Interesting. I didn't realize that you worked for Yamaha.

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


I've made minor changes to my N3 ... and posted those improvements here and to Yamaha. There was no talk of voiding my warranty.


Have you made a warranty claim? That's when you would find out if it had been violated or not. (Another way, I presume, would be to read the warranty, although they are not always easy to understand).
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#1856321 - 03/04/12 10:35 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
MacMacMac Offline
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Isn't it a moot point? If doing your own work on the piano voids the warranty, how would Yamaha know that you did the work? Unless you're clumsy and did damage, there would be no way to know.

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#1856337 - 03/04/12 11:11 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Melodialworks Music Offline
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Unless you posted photos on the web.

Conventional wisdom is to wait 'til the warranty period has expired, or get the work done by an authorized service agent. I believe the standard phrase is "no user serviceable parts inside" or something to that effect.
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#1856404 - 03/05/12 04:17 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
EssBrace Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Isn't it a moot point? If doing your own work on the piano voids the warranty, how would Yamaha know that you did the work? Unless you're clumsy and did damage, there would be no way to know.


Indeed. But to quote Singleton:

"You've got to leave the screws in there and just remove the (funny looking and ackwardly shaped) nuts - or you might end up ruining the screws as I did.)"

Some manufacturers of consumer electronics (Blu-Ray/DVD players etc) coat inside surfaces of their equipment in a way that causes marks when the surfaces are touched so they can see if curiosity has got the better of an owner. Why give a company an easy way out of their obligations? If they see chewed-up screw heads they can walk away - and I'm not sure I would blame them. I expect all warranties state something like "repairs must be carried out by authorised persons", and I would also expect what Lawrence says to be found; "no user-servicable parts inside".

Who would try to carry out repairs on a new car for instance? We are not talking about tweaks or the fitting of accessories (so Dave, those furry dice of yours won't void your warranty) - we are talking about full-on repairs here. You'd have to be mad or in a real emergency situation to have a go yourself if there was the manufacturer's warranty still in place. Just my thoughts anyway.

Steve
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#1856424 - 03/05/12 06:51 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
MacMacMac Offline
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Well, I have to agree with that. If I pay large for a piano, I expect it to work. If it doesn't, the maker is on the hook.
... "Why give a company an easy way out of their obligations?"
and
... "You'd have to be mad or in a real emergency situation to have a go yourself if there was the manufacturer's warranty still in place."

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#1856426 - 03/05/12 06:57 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Dave Horne Offline
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I've had techs in my house to work on my GranTouch, these guys work for Yamaha but they also work for other companies as well; they've jumped through hoops to be labeled a Yamaha technician.

If you've opened the keyboard in question and explain what you've done ... and you haven't broken anything in the process, it's been my experience that you're treated as a responsible adult.
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#1856428 - 03/05/12 07:33 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
toddy Online   content
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That's great - and a very impressive affirmation for Yamaha. But if that is so, it makes Yamaha absolutely outstanding according to my experience, which has been that manufacturers and shops will do anything to avoid honouring their guarantees if they can legally do so.

Two recent examples: I once repaired a DETACHABLE mains lead to a portable TV. When that TV went on the blink, I took it to the repair station where they informed me I'd voided the warranty.

And my daughter put her newish mobile phone into repair because the buttons didn't function correctly. They refused to repair it under guarantee because it 'had been exposed to damp'. Well, she is very careful with her stuff and it had never had an accident of any kind - just normal usage.

In other words, 'damp', incurred through normal use (keeping your phone in your pocket), means they do not need to provide any after sales service.

No, guarantees aren't worth much more than the paper they're written on in my experience. Better buy something that won't be likely to go wrong, or be prepared to fix it yourself (ebay has been a great help for this, by the way.)

And going anywhere near a device with a screw driver would surely land you straight in the sh** if you were to have a problem later.
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#1856468 - 03/05/12 09:36 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Gigantoad Offline
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Surely Yamaha is more accommodating with the AvantGrands because of the relatively high price point. This puts it more in the spot of real instruments rather than just techno gadgets. Nobody would ever dare to claim the warranty of a real grand was voided because a none-manufacturer tech voiced it or fixed some issues it had. If you really manage to mess things up though (which is unlikely) then you have to accept the consequences.

After spending so much money though I have absolutely no reason to try and fix things myself. This is something that I expect Yamaha to do, and they did so without question even for the super minor issue I had.

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#1856645 - 03/05/12 03:13 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Singleton Offline
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Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Singleton
I just completely dismantled my (brand new) N1 because one of the keys regularly got stuck.


And you've just voided your warranty. Why would you do this yourself instead of calling the dealer you bought it from, or Yamaha? Crazy....

The warranty isn't worth anything in my case, as I bought the instrument via an online shop (to save money).

Moreover, it was exciting and instructive to take the thing apart and I'm glad I did it. It's such a difference if you know it from outside only, or if you've really gotten in touch with it and know how it's built and how it works.


Edited by Singleton (03/05/12 04:14 PM)

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#1856666 - 03/05/12 04:11 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Singleton]
Gigantoad Offline
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Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Singleton
[quote=EssBrace]
The warranty isn't worth anything in my case, as I bought the instrument via an online shop (to save money).


Since when does buying in an online shop come with no warranty? Was it some kind of black import or something laugh

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#1856673 - 03/05/12 04:20 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Singleton Offline
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Registered: 03/04/12
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Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Originally Posted By: Singleton
[quote=EssBrace]
The warranty isn't worth anything in my case, as I bought the instrument via an online shop (to save money).


Since when does buying in an online shop come with no warranty? Was it some kind of black import or something laugh

When I ordered it, I thought everything was ok. But when it was already too late, I learned (from a real dealer) that Yamaha doesn't support this kind of selling their instruments - and that I can forget about the warranty.
But I can live with that. I'm pretty good at fixing things myself - and I'm still very glad about the money I saved. (It would have been 7500 Swiss franks in the shops, and I paid 6000.)

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#1856718 - 03/05/12 05:44 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
gvfarns Offline
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6000 CHF = 6580 USD.

That's an outstanding price. So much for all the talk about Europeans getting screwed by higher prices than we pay in America. Is that before or after a monstrous 20% VAT?

I would definitely give up my warranty in order to get one at a superior price like that.


Edited by gvfarns (03/05/12 05:47 PM)

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#1856719 - 03/05/12 05:45 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Singleton]
Gigantoad Offline
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Originally Posted By: Singleton

When I ordered it, I thought everything was ok. But when it was already too late, I learned (from a real dealer) that Yamaha doesn't support this kind of selling their instruments - and that I can forget about the warranty.
But I can live with that. I'm pretty good at fixing things myself - and I'm still very glad about the money I saved. (It would have been 7500 Swiss franks in the shops, and I paid 6000.)


I'm from Switzerland too. Where did you buy it? I got mine from a shop I found on Ricardo (http://www.furrerpromusik.ch) and paid 5695 with full 2 year warranty.

I actually had a small issue fixed by service guy described here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1830311

Edit: duh, just realized I linked to this here thread. Consider me facepalmed laugh


Edited by Gigantoad (03/06/12 03:13 AM)

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#1856772 - 03/05/12 07:13 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
toddy Online   content
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Interesting - that means the Yamaha N1 is available for €4801 from this shop, Furrer Pro Musik. Sounds amazingly cheap! Not much different from some of the top end Clavinovas.
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#1856981 - 03/06/12 03:06 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: toddy]
Gigantoad Offline
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Originally Posted By: toddy
Interesting - that means the Yamaha N1 is available for €4801 from this shop, Furrer Pro Musik. Sounds amazingly cheap! Not much different from some of the top end Clavinovas.


Yeah, I was sceptical at first but the dealer explained that he cirumvents the usual channels and has no shop where you can go to and try out instruments. I think he gets his stuff through other dealers or something. Could care less, it was the only way I could afford the thing at the time anyway.

Goes to show how high the margins probably are on the AvantGrands. Surely he's still making a good profit even with this low price.

It's strange because usually I need to import stuff from Thomann or such to get a good price. Switzerland tends to have way higher prices than our European neighbours, especially with the strong swiss franc.

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#1857034 - 03/06/12 08:20 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
toddy Online   content
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Loc: Portugal
Yes, that price: €4801 for the Avant Grand N1 is the online price, too. Usually, that's where you start bargaining from, so I assume you might get a cash deal quite a lot cheaper than that.

Curious, the prices and pricing policy differences from country to country. Anyway, it's great you managed to make the most of this apparent anomaly.
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#1857140 - 03/06/12 12:12 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Karnevil Offline
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Posts: 160
I just don't understand how anyone can sell the N1 for 4800 euros and actually make money of it, or rather not actually loosing money over the sale.
Are you sure this isn't a demo/store or used instrument? Wow... The list price here in Norway is around 8150-8200 euros. Having said that, Norway has a pretty strong currency these days.

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#1857234 - 03/06/12 02:22 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Singleton Offline
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Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
I'm from Switzerland too. Where did you buy it? I got mine from a shop I found on Ricardo (http://www.furrerpromusik.ch) and paid 5695 with a full 2 year warranty.

I actually had a small issue fixed by a service guy described here...

Interesting. So we bought it in the same place. And you paid even less. (I paid 6050.- including delivery.) So if you had something fixed, it means that there is a warranty after all. How remarkable.

I still don't regret having taken it apart. I like it a lot better now that I know it so intimately ...

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#1857241 - 03/06/12 02:29 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Singleton]
Gigantoad Offline
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Originally Posted By: Singleton

Interesting. So we bought it in the same place. And you paid even less. (I paid 6050.- including delivery.) So if you had something fixed, it means that there is a warranty after all. How remarkable.

I still don't regret having taken it apart. I like it a lot better now that I know it so intimately ...


Well in hindsight, it's quite possible that Yamaha just assumed that I had gotten the instrument through normal channels. Only after the service guy was finnished did I have to show the invoice, so maybe later they realised I wasn't entitled to warranty but for sake of customer satisfaction just bit the bullet? heck I don't know. smile

The dealer clearly states "2 year warranty" though. Maybe the idea was that he himself would do any warranty work instead of Yamaha? Possible.

http://www.furrerpromusik.ch/product_info.php?products_id=22

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#1858433 - 03/08/12 02:00 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Singleton Offline
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Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
The dealer clearly states "2 year warranty" though. Maybe the idea was that he himself would do any warranty work instead of Yamaha? Possible.

That's exactly what he told me. And as the guy certainly doesn't have any special knowledge about these instruments (he's just a vendor of all kinds of electronic goods), I can just as well do the repairs myself ...

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#1859015 - 03/09/12 02:17 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Singleton Offline
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Loc: Switzerland
Maybe someone's interested in some more pictures of the N1's interiors? Here's a link to a set of nine photos of my taking-the-N1-apart-adventure:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77782693@N07/6821329928/in/set-72157629183675738/lightbox/

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#1859034 - 03/09/12 03:13 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
gvfarns Offline
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Outstanding teardown. Looks like you really got into the guts. You don't happen to have a closeup of the brain board and the sensors (both the ones under the keys and the ones the hammers pass through) do you?

Under the keys it looks like there's a piece of...clear plastic I guess...that hangs down and then presumably cuts through a beam of light inside the metal apparatus underneath. Is that right? Do you get the feeling the clear plastic is delicate? Adjustable? Replaceable?

If I recall right from the other pictures, the hammers also have a piece of something that comes up and cuts through two beams of light. Is it the same basic stuff as is under the bottom of your key?

Probably these should be added to dewster's "nekkid DP" thread.

Thanks for sharing!

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#1859122 - 03/09/12 07:36 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted By: Singleton
Maybe someone's interested in some more pictures of the N1's interiors? Here's a link to a set of nine photos of my taking-the-N1-apart-adventure:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77782693@N07/6821329928/in/set-72157629183675738/lightbox/

Great teardown, thanks! You should make a post here at PW with your pix in it (you can host them on the PW server, if you want me to put them there please tell me) and some text.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
You don't happen to have a closeup of the brain board and the sensors (both the ones under the keys and the ones the hammers pass through) do you?

I second the request for closeup pix of the brains board.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Under the keys it looks like there's a piece of...clear plastic I guess...that hangs down and then presumably cuts through a beam of light inside the metal apparatus underneath. Is that right? Do you get the feeling the clear plastic is delicate? Adjustable? Replaceable?

The plastic looks fairly clear to the camera (and to the human eye?) but perhaps it is opaque to IR? Though some say there is a soft red light from under the keys so I'm not sure what to think.

I don't know why exactly but I'm shocked that the AG keys have counterweights in their sides.
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#1859252 - 03/10/12 04:54 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: dewster]
Dave Horne Offline
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I don't know why exactly but I'm shocked that the AG keys have counterweights in their sides.

Do you mean the round lead keys in the front part of the keys, the part of the keys that are under your fingers?
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#1859501 - 03/10/12 03:46 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
Singleton Offline
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Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
You don't happen to have a closeup of the brain board ...

Nop, sorry. I wasn't interested in that part.
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
... and the sensors (both the ones under the keys and the ones the hammers pass through)

This is the best I have for the sensors below the keys:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77782693@N07/6824204370/in/photostream

And for those of the hammers, picture 4 of the original post already shows the sensors pretty well. In the following picture you see them too, less clearly, but more of the slices that go into the light barriers is visible:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77782693@N07/6824204532/in/photostream

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Under the keys it looks like there's a piece of...clear plastic I guess...that hangs down and then presumably cuts through a beam of light inside the metal apparatus underneath. Is that right?

Exactly.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Do you get the feeling the clear plastic is delicate? Adjustable? Replaceable?

I inadvertently gave it a push several times, and it's not particularly delicate. It's pliable, yet fairly rigid. It didn't look adjustable, as far as I can remember - but I guess replacing it wouldn't be too difficult, as there seems to be enough space under the keys to fix it in improvised ways (if necessary).

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
If I recall right from the other pictures, the hammers also have a piece of something that comes up and cuts through two beams of light. Is it the same basic stuff as is under the bottom of your key?

No, it isn't. Looks more like metal to me. But I didn't touch it.


Edited by Singleton (03/10/12 04:02 PM)

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#1859508 - 03/10/12 03:59 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: dewster]
Singleton Offline
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Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: dewster
You should make a post here at PW with your pix in it (you can host them on the PW server, if you want me to put them there please tell me) and some text.

Sounds good. For some reason, if I want to place a picture in a post, only the image-tags plus the URL appear instead of the picture. That's why there are no pictures in my posts.
I didn't know pictures could be hosted on PW. That would definitely be better than having them on flickr. How can I upload them? Or how can I send you the pictures to do it for me? By email?
And what about the size? The FAQ section states that pics should only be 35K max, which is pretty little. Means you can't zoom in on any details.

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#1859944 - 03/11/12 03:33 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: PianoZac]
sunwei Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
I had as well a noise issue and got it repaired. I talked with the guy and he told me it's impossible to get to the action unless to dissemble the piano.

Here are some pictures I made:






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#1859950 - 03/11/12 03:40 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Gigantoad Offline
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Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Wow, 3 guys from Switzerland and all of them had their AvantGrand disassembled. That must mean something, I'm just not sure what smile

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#1859956 - 03/11/12 03:46 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Singleton]
sunwei Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
I bought my N1 from A-Zulauf in Aarau. They actually also sell pianos on Ricardo and eBay. I don't think that the online purchase is the reason for no warranty.

I traded in my 1.5 year old Clavinova CLP-370 and together with the cashback promotion of Yamaha, I paid 39xx Franks. It's a good deal, isn't it?

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#1859965 - 03/11/12 03:56 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5281
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Wow, 3 guys from Switzerland and all of them had their AvantGrand disassembled. That must mean something, I'm just not sure what smile


That is interesting, isn't it?
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#1859968 - 03/11/12 03:57 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
sunwei Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/31/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
My problem is similar to yours. The white E3 key makes a click noise when released. It took the guy quite a lot time to find out where the noise comes from and what is the reason. And finally it turn out to be a very small defect that one wood stick is 1mm away from the center where it is supposed to move up- and downwards.

Anyway, I think the overall quality and especially the finishing of N1 is very good.

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#1861817 - 03/14/12 02:55 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Dave Horne]
yaccob Offline
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Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
Wow, 3 guys from Switzerland and all of them had their AvantGrand disassembled. That must mean something, I'm just not sure what smile


That is interesting, isn't it?


And here's another Swiss guy, whose Avantgrand N3 will come out of the 2yr- warranty this month, and who is interested in learning how to open up the N3 :-)

Any hints?
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#1863099 - 03/16/12 12:49 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: yaccob]
Le Senior Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/16/12
Posts: 1
Hi to everybody! Well, I'm from germany, my hometown is nearby the borderline to switzerland (!) and - believe it or not - my brandnew N2 is also deficient. It's actually my second N2, the first went back to Yamaha after weeks of endless discussions and trouble-shooting.
The problem now is within the shank stopper: The core of the shank stopper is wood but it's stiffened with metal side panels. The rear panel is loose (the red adhesive tape isn't much good obviously) and stick out a few millimeters in a wide bow, so six hammer heads of the octave in this area (which rather should not strike anything) are touching the metal side panel with an ugly noise.
(I've learned already, how to open up the N2...)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LgoS5h8Ddw0/T2bmGnNCRtI/AAAAAAAAACs/4Hz9dVXnPoQ/s640/DSC00236.JPG
Superglue or animal glue? Any hints?


Edited by Le Senior (03/19/12 03:59 AM)

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#1894599 - 05/10/12 05:55 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Le Senior]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Hello guys, interesting thread, theres quite a lot in here!

I would like to take back the discussion on the quality of the keyboard for a second, if you dont mind.

My N1 has a decent overall feel, but certainly it doesnt compare to the feel I have on the real thing. The keys feel shallow, and the step of the escapement is way lower down the run of the key than on my baby grand. This means that if you depress the key at the level of the escapement and try to make a sound, nothing really comes out most of the times! I think another exemplary feature is the glissando. On my old Yamaha P80 I could easily do octaves glissando. I can do them easily on my N1 as well, but theres no way on earth I have ever been able to do them properly on my baby grand. That tells me theres something different in the regulation of the mechanics, which is quite substantial. What is your experience? How does the glissando trial works for you guys smile? Any contribution very much appreciated, thank you.

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#1894600 - 05/10/12 06:00 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2422
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
What is your baby grand? What make? All piano keyboards are different. My N3 replaced a Yamaha GC1 grand piano and I would say in very general terms the keys feel about the same. The response is a bit different but the feel is much the same.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1894610 - 05/10/12 07:08 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: EssBrace]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Hi EssBrace, I have a Kawai babygrand (actually it is a Lipmann I think, one of those Kawai built in Korea or something..). I have been playing the piano for more than 30 years, and yes, thats one of the charms and the course at the same time of this instrument, no piano sounds or feels the same. But frankly, my N1 feels a bit like an hybrid between a grand and a digital, I have never played a grand which felt shallow like that, but that is the feeling I invariably get playing digitals, and uprights too, to a certain extent. When I go back to a normal grand piano, it always feels a lot easier to play, to speak in general terms.

I know it is a bit trivial, but I think the octaves glissando are a good way to exemplify the difference, they are notoriously difficult to produce on a modern grand (think Beethoven op 53 of course, and all the debates about those octaves in the last movement..), and I have never been able to produce them properly myself on any grand I have tried, but they are a piece of cake on this N1. Have you tried that on your N3?

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#1894614 - 05/10/12 07:10 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
This means that if you depress the key at the level of the escapement and try to make a sound, nothing really comes out most of the times!


From what I gathered, this is called "playing off the jack" and it's a known limitation of the AvantGrand. A very minor one though, as there are hardly any practical uses for this technique.

I don't think it has anything to do with the shallow key depth though.

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#1894623 - 05/10/12 07:30 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Thanks Gigantoad ( smile!), I am not sure the keys are actually shallow, actually I would be surprised if they were, as it seems to me it wouldnt match the sophistication the instrument has under many other aspects. What I am saying is that they [/i]feel[i] as if they were shallow. And I think this is down to the ligthness of the keyboard generally and specifically to the escapment kicking in too late in the run down of the key.

Interesting to know about that limitation of the Avantgrand though, I agree it is minor but playing keys already partially depressed should be the most substantial advantage of a grand's mechanics compared to uprights'..

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#1894630 - 05/10/12 08:00 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
BTW from those photos, isn't this action from yamaha GB1 baby grand?
looks familiar...

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#1894857 - 05/10/12 04:01 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
Hi EssBrace, I have a Kawai babygrand (actually it is a Lipmann I think, one of those Kawai built in Korea or something..). I have been playing the piano for more than 30 years, and yes, thats one of the charms and the course at the same time of this instrument, no piano sounds or feels the same. But frankly, my N1 feels a bit like an hybrid between a grand and a digital,


Well not be 'smart', but your AvantGrand N1 is a hybrid, so there should be no surprise it feel like a hybrid.

Sorry if my tone was rude. I certainly did not want to come across that way. My point was that being that the AvantGrands are hybrid instruments, they will have naturally (no pun intended) have shortfalls compared to a real grand piano, err, well maintained grand piano. But they also have many advantages over acoustics, as well as pretty much all other digital pianos. Most people would surely rather have an acoustic grand piano vs any digital or hybrid, but the high end digitals and hybrids have so many advantages over acoustics, least of all price.


Edited by ZacharyForbes (05/10/12 08:01 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1894899 - 05/10/12 04:58 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: PianoZac]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Well, yes mate, but thats a bit quoted out of context. It is the piano which is supposed to be an hybrid, not the keyboard. The piano is hybrid, because the mechanics (the keyboard) should give the response of a grand piano, and the sound is instead digital. What I am saying is that that my keyboard does not quite do what it says on the tin, and that (the keyboard, again), is the unique selling point of the instrument. It is certainly better than any digital I have ever played, but it is not quite the keyboard of a grand piano either.

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#1895006 - 05/10/12 08:02 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
I revised my post Alex...sorry about the somewhat rude tone!
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1895164 - 05/11/12 05:03 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: PianoZac]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
No probs at all, Zachary, thanks for taking the time to clarify your point. I am with you in saying that Avantgrands are the best amongst the non acoustic pianos, and am the first one to recognize their advantages, especially for people who practice regularly. Actually, I have to say that I spotted the issue straightaway when I tried the piano in the shop, and this didnt prevent me from buying it! I would buy the N1 again, for that matter, so my isnt to be intended as a mere criticism. Instead, since I read on this and other forums of people having their keyboard seviced in order to suit their likings/needs more, I was just wondering if it is possible to alter the settings of the keyboard toward my likings in order to make it even better for me, and if other people had had it serviced to meet similar targets as mine. It seems not, as far as I can see!

I did, however, contact Yamaha, they already replied (in a couple of days) suggesting me to contact directly the dealer, and leaving me a phone number if further enquiries were needed. I concted my dealer, who in turn gave me a number to call to have the matter discussed. So, once I do it (probably Monday, at this stage) I will keep you guys posted if of interest, it is some more information to be had, which is always useful I think. Thanks for your help guys.

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#1895174 - 05/11/12 05:56 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
Manolios Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 130
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
[...]
I will keep you guys posted if of interest,[...]


Oh yes, please do that, Alex. I'm seriously considering the N1, the "Karnevil's Syndrome" luckily turned out to be a bit of a lot of fuss about nothing... I managed to reproduce the issue but it's not really that big of a deal for me.

Best regards,
Manolios

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#1895183 - 05/11/12 06:58 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Oks, no probs, will post on this thread. BTW, whats the Karnevil's Syndrome..?

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#1895191 - 05/11/12 07:11 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
Manolios Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 130
Loc: Germany

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#1895197 - 05/11/12 07:30 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
I am with you in saying that Avantgrands are the best amongst the non acoustic pianos, and am the first one to recognize their advantages, especially for people who practice regularly.


really? if not the real grand action avantgrand woudln't be worthy even to look at it...

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#1895300 - 05/11/12 10:56 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad]
AlexSilvestri Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 12
Well, thats precisely their unique selling point, isnt it?

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#1895348 - 05/11/12 12:27 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3658
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
Well, thats precisely their unique selling point, isnt it?


That and the 4 channel sound, which only factors in if you mostly the speaker system rather than headphones, and whether you consider the speaker system up to the job (which most people do, from what I've read). But yes, action first and foremost. It's the only one in its class.

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#1896047 - 05/13/12 05:57 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2690
Originally Posted By: AlexSilvestri
I know it is a bit trivial, but I think the octaves glissando are a good way to exemplify the difference, they are notoriously difficult to produce on a modern grand (think Beethoven op 53 of course...


As for Beethoven's "Waldstein" sonata:

Far easier to play those double glissandos as scales in each hand, instead!

Save yourself blood and sweat on the keys for all of the effort...

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#2170047 - 10/22/13 12:40 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
NormB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/02/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.


As someone who has pretty much played conventional grads their whole life I have a question about how these N3-N1 sensors work in the real world. On a 'real' grand, once the hammer has sufficient velocity it will sound a note--whether the player bottoms out the key or not. I have got into the custom of not bottoming out keys quite a lot; the notes in question of course still sound. No such luck with any digital keyboard I have played. How about these? If the 'hammer' has sufficient velocity to strike will the note sound--even if you don't bottom the key in question?


Edited by NormB (10/22/13 12:41 PM)

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#2170068 - 10/22/13 01:21 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: NormB]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2419
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: NormB
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.


As someone who has pretty much played conventional grads their whole life I have a question about how these N3-N1 sensors work in the real world. On a 'real' grand, once the hammer has sufficient velocity it will sound a note--whether the player bottoms out the key or not. I have got into the custom of not bottoming out keys quite a lot; the notes in question of course still sound. No such luck with any digital keyboard I have played. How about these? If the 'hammer' has sufficient velocity to strike will the note sound--even if you don't bottom the key in question?

I don't know about the N1-N3 but for the NU1, which uses the same technology, the answer is yes, the note will sound without bottoming out the key.

Also, I believe that this is true of many high end DP's and perhaps you have not looked enough. Maybe others will chime in.

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#2170091 - 10/22/13 02:10 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: spanishbuddha]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 760
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
I don't know about the N1-N3 but for the NU1, which uses the same technology, the answer is yes, the note will sound without bottoming out the key.

Also, I believe that this is true of many high end DP's and perhaps you have not looked enough. Maybe others will chime in.
Are you sure it's the same technology. The NU1 is a newer model with upright action. N1-N3 has been out much longer and has grand action.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2170109 - 10/22/13 02:43 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
helloworld1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 82
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.

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#2170173 - 10/22/13 05:04 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: helloworld1]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: helloworld1
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.


You 100% sure about that? The N1 has a sensor under the keys that shines a red light and another two at the hammers. Some optical fiber stuff that creates a path that gets cut by a bit of plastic.


Edited by gvfarns (10/22/13 05:04 PM)

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#2170208 - 10/22/13 06:07 PM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns]
helloworld1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: helloworld1
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.


You 100% sure about that? The N1 has a sensor under the keys that shines a red light and another two at the hammers. Some optical fiber stuff that creates a path that gets cut by a bit of plastic.


I am 95% sure that NU1 has only 1 sensors under the keys. I saw the whole actions during the repair. There are no sensors or red beam in the hammer. The only red beams are under the keky. Also the Yamaha repair tech confirms that NU1 does not have hammer sensors.

So, this means N1 also has sensor advantage over NU1.

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#2170448 - 10/23/13 04:59 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad]
de cajon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/13
Posts: 190
Loc: London, UK
I can confirm that there are red lights under the keys of a Yamaha CX SH. As noted above, they shine though a graduated-transparency plastic shuter that gradually cuts the beam.

(However, with an SH action there are also hammer sensors. Both are described here . (You will probably need to click the Features tab.))
_________________________
Yamaha C3X SH

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#2171167 - 10/24/13 10:25 AM Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: helloworld1]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: helloworld1
I am 95% sure that NU1 has only 1 sensors under the keys. I saw the whole actions during the repair. There are no sensors or red beam in the hammer. The only red beams are under the keky. Also the Yamaha repair tech confirms that NU1 does not have hammer sensors.

Wow. Though it sounds like they maybe have continuous key position information (i.e. not limited to switching positions). I wonder if they're doing anything fancy with that info?
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