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#1830913 - 01/24/12 10:18 AM Fingering arpeggios
Lollipop Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 770
Loc: Georgia
I struggle a bit when teaching arpeggio fingering - eg. left hand C Major, because I am not comfortable using my 4th finger, so it's hard for me to make my students do it. My 4th finger is, I think, shorter than average (or my middle finger is longer), and using my 3rd finger just makes more sense for me.

Just wondering how important this is. Should I be encouraging my students to get comfortable with the standard fingering even if I don't, or just let them use whichever comes more naturally? Do you change the fingering based upon your students' hand? Or do you make everyone follow the standard?
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#1830928 - 01/24/12 10:48 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Lollipop]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
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I've found there to be great inconsistency in fingering suggestions. I've seen publications where the LH is 4-2-1 and then the RH, on the same key spacings, 3-2-1. Personally, I work with my student's hands to discover which works best for them, but constantly mention to them that as they grow older, they will want to experiment with other fingerings, looking for fluidity, each of movement, etc.
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#1830990 - 01/24/12 12:19 PM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Lollipop]
Lollipop Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
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Loc: Georgia
Thanks, John. That is helpful.
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#1831055 - 01/24/12 02:47 PM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 3468
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
I've found there to be great inconsistency in fingering suggestions. I've seen publications where the LH is 4-2-1 and then the RH, on the same key spacings, 3-2-1. Personally, I work with my student's hands to discover which works best for them, but constantly mention to them that as they grow older, they will want to experiment with other fingerings, looking for fluidity, each of movement, etc.

John,

For any arpeggio that uses four fingers, I finger it:

1 2 ? 5, meaning always choose 3 or 4 according to hand size and what feels most natural...
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#1831293 - 01/24/12 11:20 PM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Lollipop]
Monaco Offline
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Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 311
Loc: GA
Try this,
Open your hand to the shape of an octave. Now which finger is closer to the note a third below your pinkie. I'll bet it's 4. The 3 fingers in the middle tend to stay together. To use finger 3 you have to enforce an opening between fingers 2 and 3. I believe that is why 4 is the appropriate fingering, because it is a more relaxed, natural hand position.
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#1831346 - 01/25/12 01:56 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Lollipop]
AZNpiano Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 3586
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Lollipop
Just wondering how important this is.

Not very. Just choose one and stick to it. I use 3 in this case (for accuracy), but I can see how 4 is also viable.

For most arpeggios that involve black and white keys, the general rule is to use the thumb on the white keys.

As to choosing 2-3 vs. 2-4, if the lateral stretch is wide, go for 4. 3 gives more strength and accuracy because for many people 4 is a weak finger.

Sometimes an alternate fingering will take advantage of the fact that the 1-2 stretch is laterally wider than the 2-4 stretch. Here's an example of alternate fingering: For the R.H. of F minor arpeggio, you can start with 1-2-3 or 2-3-1.
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#1831359 - 01/25/12 02:57 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 3468
Loc: South Florida
I still think the best approach is to let the hand decide which is more comfortable. When teaching, simply watch the student, and suggest to the student to use one, then the other, observe, make a suggestion if one is obvious more relaxed and/or stronger than the other.
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#1831448 - 01/25/12 08:18 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Gary D.]
piano joy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/11
Posts: 596
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I still think the best approach is to let the hand decide which is more comfortable. When teaching, simply watch the student, and suggest to the student to use one, then the other, observe, make a suggestion if one is obvious more relaxed and/or stronger than the other.


Is it preferable for the hands to use same fingering, or can they differ?
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#1831455 - 01/25/12 08:39 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Monaco]
chrisbell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 890
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Monaco
Try this,Open your hand to the shape of an octave. Now which finger is closer to the note a third below your pinkie. I'll bet it's 4. The 3 fingers in the middle tend to stay together. To use finger 3 you have to enforce an opening between fingers 2 and 3. I believe that is why 4 is the appropriate fingering, because it is a more relaxed, natural hand position.
+1
This is very good advice. I believe it is very important to get one's students in on using the 4th finger as early as possible.
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#1831495 - 01/25/12 10:05 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Lollipop]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1231
Loc: CA
I'm with Gary. Everyone's hand is different. What works for me may not work for you. My basic technical premise is to keep the arm aligned behind the hand via the wrist. You have to always look at the proportions of the fingers to each other.
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#1831535 - 01/25/12 11:05 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Lollipop]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 311
Loc: GA
I need to clarify-
I was referring to white note, 4 note (or more) arpeggios and chords. Ex. L.H. C-E-G-C
When there is a black note in the middle, then 3 is the correct fingering.
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#1831568 - 01/25/12 12:25 PM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Monaco]
Lollipop Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 770
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: Monaco
Try this,
Open your hand to the shape of an octave. Now which finger is closer to the note a third below your pinkie. I'll bet it's 4. The 3 fingers in the middle tend to stay together. To use finger 3 you have to enforce an opening between fingers 2 and 3. I believe that is why 4 is the appropriate fingering, because it is a more relaxed, natural hand position.


This is interesting. I did try this, opening my left hand to an octave. Fingers 1-2 are the widest gap, of course, but fingers 2-3-4-5 were pretty even. So I put my hand on the keyboard in a relaxed octave, and 5 was on C,and 3 was on E. That makes sense to my why it is so hard for me to force the 4th finger there.

I will watch my students and see what fits, and go from there.
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#1831720 - 01/25/12 04:57 PM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Monaco]
John v.d.Brook Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 6124
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Monaco
I need to clarify-
I was referring to white note, 4 note (or more) arpeggios and chords. Ex. L.H. C-E-G-C
When there is a black note in the middle, then 3 is the correct fingering.

Our hands are so vastly different - in size, stretch, strength, etc., that to say there is "one correct fingering" for each passage, be it an arpeggio or anything else, is, IMO, quite risky for a teacher and student. I have 5 or 6 different sets of major student works, accumulated over many years of teaching, and none of them agree on fingerings. A fairly recent UE urtext edition of either the Mozart K545 or Beethoven Op 49 (I forget which, sorry), offered really unique fingerings, yet, I could immediately see some of the advantages to students using and learning them. Overall, I'm probably much more tolerant of students using the 3rd finger in arpeggios because my own hands, though large, do not stretch well between fingers 3 & 4. I get much smoother playing sticking with the 3rd. But I have students who can use the 4th, and do so just as well as I can using the 3rd. For them, the 4th is the better choice.
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#1832060 - 01/26/12 02:48 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Gary D. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 3468
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Our hands are so vastly different - in size, stretch, strength, etc., that to say there is "one correct fingering" for each passage, be it an arpeggio or anything else, is, IMO, quite risky for a teacher and student. I have 5 or 6 different sets of major student works, accumulated over many years of teaching, and none of them agree on fingerings. A fairly recent UE urtext edition of either the Mozart K545 or Beethoven Op 49 (I forget which, sorry), offered really unique fingerings, yet, I could immediately see some of the advantages to students using and learning them. Overall, I'm probably much more tolerant of students using the 3rd finger in arpeggios because my own hands, though large, do not stretch well between fingers 3 & 4. I get much smoother playing sticking with the 3rd. But I have students who can use the 4th, and do so just as well as I can using the 3rd. For them, the 4th is the better choice.

A thought: for my hand it makes no difference at all whether or not I use 3 or 4 for the span of an octave, such as C E G C (5 ? 2 1), but if I continue up an arpeggio, 5 4 2 1, 4 2 1, 4 2 1 is a bit looser.

However, if I stretch a 10th between 5 and thumb, EITHER 4 OR 3 works better for a solid chord. For instance, C# E G# E, solid, is very comfortable for me as a block chord using 4 on E but very uncomfortable using 3. I did not know this until this very moment, since I never think about such things for myself, and my students do not have my stretch. So for them, I do the same thing, simply have them play things with either the 3 or 4, watch how their fingers shape themselves, then make a recommendation on that basis.

I fully agree that so many factors make it impossible to make solid rules.


Edited by Gary D. (01/26/12 02:49 AM)
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#1832062 - 01/26/12 02:51 AM Re: Fingering arpeggios [Re: Minniemay]
Gary D. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 3468
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
I'm with Gary. Everyone's hand is different. What works for me may not work for you. My basic technical premise is to keep the arm aligned behind the hand via the wrist. You have to always look at the proportions of the fingers to each other.

thumb
You are looking at the hand, not just the fingers, and I think that is very wise. smile
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