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#2160995 - 10/02/13 10:22 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
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The juggler's jugular? Or carotid?
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#2161001 - 10/02/13 10:53 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: rysowers]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: rysowers
On some hammers you just have to go for the juggler!



I'll be sure and tell him...

laugh
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#2161003 - 10/02/13 10:55 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: BDB]
Jbyron Offline
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Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 481
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
The general rule that I use is that the softer the blow that creates the harsh tone, the closer to the strike point you have to needle.

In extreme cases, I will needle under the strike point, parallel to the string. The needles could come in one side of the strike point and out the other if I needled enough.

What I am aiming for is the dead-blow hammer effect, where the hammer remains on the string long enough for the tone to develop. This is especially important in the bass, where the hammers can bounce off the string so quickly that the fundamental of the lowest strings will be restricted at best.

To get this to work properly across the range of the piano, from A-27.5 to C-4186.0 requires that the hammer stay on the string 152 times longer at the lowest A than it does at the highest C. That is an incredible variation, not likely to happen, but it is what we should be aiming for.


BDB, that's very interesting, thanks for that description. So finding a way to minimize the rebound of the hammer in a case like that would un restrict the sounding of the fundamental. I wonder if needling on the shoulder (non speaking length side) rather than the sustain side would also help to slow the rebound? Of course you would lose some power though.
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#2161032 - 10/03/13 01:32 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
rysowers Offline
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Sometimes you have to go for the juggler's jugular! laugh
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#2161034 - 10/03/13 01:53 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
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I think the difference between which side is voiced is minimal. Of course, you are free to experiment. Learning voicing takes a lot of experimentation. But good theories can direct your experimentation in ways that are more likely to be fruitful.

Hammers which are too hard have a couple of characteristics. One is that the hammer bounces off before the maximum displacement of the string. The other is that it tends towards putting the energy into higher modes. Think of a couple of kids with a jump rope. They can turn it together at a relaxed pace, and the rope forms a nice catenary curve. If they whip it faster, they can make the rope turn with a node in the center, sort of like a sideways S. That is the rope vibrating at the second harmonic. Faster yet, and you get another node, which is the third harmonic. But those nodes barely move, which means that there is very little fundamental, or even second harmonic in the latter case. Hitting a string very briefly is like whipping a jump rope very quickly. It does not give a chance for the sound to develop.

It also puts less power into the string. The hammer rebounds from the string too fast to put a lot of energy into it. This is why we should aim to make the hammer more like a dead-blow hammer, which has weights in a viscous liquid which add more force after the hammer has hit its target.

This is not the only factor in voicing, of course. Just as you can have a dead-blow hammer with a hard plastic end, or with a soft rubber end, you can adjust the characteristics of the surface to suit the sound you are after. Again, you have to experiment.
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#2161148 - 10/03/13 11:10 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
OperaTenor Offline
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Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
That's the thing. I spent 35 years knowing needling the striking point was verboten...
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#2161163 - 10/03/13 11:36 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: OperaTenor]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 527
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
That's the thing. I spent 35 years knowing needling the striking point was verboten...


Agreed...I often deal directly with the strike point as well, but almost never as sugar coating.

Often in the crown, I use #10 needles, and though it of course varies from piano to piano, will use the needle in multiple full insertions in the Angel Shot orientation, but not necessarily the Angel Shot location...often starting, with the Angel Shot orientation, towards the distal side of the crown, and progressing to the proximal side of the crown as needs be.

As well, I have found David Stanwood's compass needle/ballpeen hammer technique occasionally a life saver. This technique is directly applied to the crown as well.

Jim Ialeggio
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#2161164 - 10/03/13 11:39 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6322
Loc: France
I thought that angels where a protected specie, shooting forbidden even during season...
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#2161177 - 10/03/13 12:03 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: Olek]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Olek
I thought that angels where a protected specie, shooting forbidden even during season...


Good one, Isaac!

I keep thinking, "How many angels were shot in the name of good tone?"
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#2161235 - 10/03/13 02:13 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
Olek Offline
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Posts: 6322
Loc: France
That needling all along the hammer curves I have seen depicted as an old method used at Grotrian Steinway, but now possibly they do something similar at some point.

It seem to slow the hammer in intermediate level of play without impacting the density of FFF -I perceive that as lessening the color for mF (kind of neutral tone)

It sort of fight some partials without lowering global power (as the "angelkill" thing but for higher levels too)

I hardly imagine the final effect in the hammer, but that seem well suited for their tone anyway. Did it on a vertical with good results.

More neutral tone : more power at intermediate levels of playing (saturation later) long needles needed #5-6 10 mm.

I have no idea of the usefulness on cold pressed/lacquered hammers, but why not.

Possibly releasing the tension on the outer places may allow a little reinforcing under and near the crown, too


Edited by Olek (10/03/13 02:24 PM)
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#2161246 - 10/03/13 03:06 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
That's the thing. I spent 35 years knowing needling the striking point was verboten...



And that's still true.

This is no substitute for complete tone regulation but can sure save time with a long needle between the strings without removing the action when only two or three adjustments need to be made.

All this is extremely location specific. One light poke at a time. Testing in between.

Often just a scratch in the string mark of the brightest string is enough or begin with the needle very shallow at the distal end of the string mark and test before going anywhere near to the middle of the string mark. Do it in small increments and there will be no need to damage the hammer by starting at the crown as shown on the photo.

If you go to far, you can bring the note back up a little by a single stitch taken between the strings above or below the felt securing wire.

Personally, I always bring notes up, those that need it, first, before taking any notes down.

Sometimes a pianist will attempt to direct you in this sort of work. If you feel they are asking you to go too far, slow right down. Start to take the action out if necessary. They will get frustrated or bored and go away thus saving the piano. There's one very famous pianist whose personal piano is dead because he does this by himself to his own piano.

As Isaac says, you can kill a hammer very quickly if this is done carelessly.


Edited by rxd (10/03/13 10:32 PM)
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#2161258 - 10/03/13 03:46 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: rxd]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 527
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: rxd
There's one very famous pianist whose personal piano is dead because he does this by himself to his own piano.

Does he like the sound he achieved on his piano?

Jim Ialeggio
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#2161260 - 10/03/13 03:54 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6322
Loc: France
The same can happen with moisture and heat, as the result sound pleasing but the felt loose its interlocking soon, then pack in an unlively cushion.

As say Jack Brand, (owner of Wurzen felt factory) "moisture is the enemy of felt" (and of steel, shellac, so many other...)

The conservatory stopped doing so, here.

Now a friend want to use the "dry vapor" machines used for cloth cleaning.

RXD, do you believe the hammers can gain a little contraction by base stitching if they are lacquered ? I pre voice lacquered hammers as others but the results are very different.



Edited by Olek (10/03/13 03:58 PM)
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#2161279 - 10/03/13 04:22 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
When I used laquer, I only used a single needle once or twice in that area to bring up the hammers that needed to come up but not as a general habit. The trick was to guess the concentration of laquer that left as little needling as possible to do.
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2161288 - 10/03/13 04:36 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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I find that lacquer should be followed by sandpaper. Any particles of lacquer need to be removed, because they will wear off quickly if they are not, leaving the tone uneven if you evened it previously.

Sandpaper is an important tool for removing harshness.
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#2161294 - 10/03/13 04:43 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: BDB]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: BDB
I find that lacquer should be followed by sandpaper. Any particles of lacquer need to be removed, because they will wear off quickly if they are not, leaving the tone uneven if you evened it previously.

Sandpaper is an important tool for removing harshness.


That deserves repeating.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2161298 - 10/03/13 04:49 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6322
Loc: France
I do not see the point, the last gesture when needling is to file, but you talk of something else.
How lacquer dust do influence the tone ?
You mean a layer stay poorly lacquered and have to be filed ?



Edited by Olek (10/03/13 04:52 PM)
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#2161315 - 10/03/13 05:15 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
The point was about sanding after laquering and before needling which is standard practice. or used to be.


Edited by rxd (10/03/13 05:17 PM)
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Eschew obfuscation.



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#2161320 - 10/03/13 05:24 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
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When in doubt, try it yourself! There is no substitute for experience.
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#2161330 - 10/03/13 05:43 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6322
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
The point was about sanding after laquering and before needling which is standard practice. or used to be.

you may talk about cold pressed or NY hammers, sometime refelted hammers are lacquered before anything but with Renner type hammer I first needle , then sand then lacquer if necessary, needle and sand.

I cannot see the need to lacquer before first voicing. while it may be an option exceptionally.
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#2161336 - 10/03/13 06:00 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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One should sand before needling. Fitting the hammer to the string is very important. It is another thing that will happen by itself if left long enough, and result in uneven tone if the hammers were voiced to be even when they are not properly fitted. Of course, needling hammers poorly fitted is not likely to result in even tone. Different problems have different solutions.
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#2161342 - 10/03/13 06:10 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
rxd Offline
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We are talking about certain American hammers that require lacquer initially, often total saturation. It is not usual to do any prior needling or fitting. All that is done after the laquer is dry.

Is that where the confusion lies?

The way you use lacquer with European hammers is different.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2161347 - 10/03/13 06:19 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6322
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: BDB
One should sand before needling. Fitting the hammer to the string is very important. It is another thing that will happen by itself if left long enough, and result in uneven tone if the hammers were voiced to be even when they are not properly fitted. Of course, needling hammers poorly fitted is not likely to result in even tone. Different problems have different solutions.


sure , that is just crown work then. I was more in processes prior to voicing, hammer prep (indeed a fast crown filing is done but hammers can be evaluated without precise fitting)


Edited by Olek (10/03/13 06:20 PM)
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#2161402 - 10/03/13 08:46 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
Gary Fowler Offline
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Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 372
BDB, exactly! Make sure the hammers are hitting all 3 strings at the same time. That in itself can do wonders to the tonal response you get out of the hammers.
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#2161418 - 10/03/13 09:12 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Well, that was the thing for me in this particular case. I had previously needled these hammers ~10 times in the preceding year and a half. I pulled the action to do it again and noticed they were in need of resurfacing first. When I resurfaced them, it was as if all of my previous voicing came undone; the overbrightness was back in all of its glory, and the sound was totally uncontrollable; any sustain would produce an avalanche of sound. And these hammers - original Renners in a 1980 SF-10 - have absolutely never been lacquered.

And my customer was giving a performance on this piano in ten days...

Hence, my foray into Angel shot voicing, and then into needling the striking points themselves.

FWIW, the resurfacing I did this past time was probably the most aggressive, thorough resurfacing job I had ever done; they looked new when I was finished.





Edited by OperaTenor (10/04/13 12:57 AM)
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#2161455 - 10/03/13 10:26 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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BDB,
How did you derive that the hammer contact time at A1 should be 152 times F of C88?
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#2161463 - 10/03/13 10:36 PM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
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Division.
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#2161484 - 10/04/13 12:04 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Registered: 12/09/12
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Loc: Seattle, WA USA
BDB,
So your hammer string contact theory has no term for the inertia of the hammer?
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#2161500 - 10/04/13 12:34 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: James Carney]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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No, it only considers the frequency of the note, which is only a function of time.

Mass might be a concern when one is trying to make hammers rebound in a given time, but that was not the topic that I was addressing.
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#2161547 - 10/04/13 02:44 AM Re: Angel Shot Voicing [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6322
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
We are talking about certain American hammers that require lacquer initially, often total saturation. It is not usual to do any prior needling or fitting. All that is done after the laquer is dry.

Is that where the confusion lies?

The way you use lacquer with European hammers is different.


Dear Rxd yes that is what I've suspected. Thanks for clearing. that is different indeed . the final hammer is a sort of composite material then.





Edited by Olek (10/04/13 03:16 AM)
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