I wonder if Chopin was familiar with any of Dickens' stories? He did know someone else who was trying to write socially conscious novels.

Dr. Jeff: You're making me wish that there is some alternate universe in which I went to a music school that offered graduate degrees in music history, or moved to a place where there was one. Back when I used to spend a lot of time with the lute, I dreamed of getting some kind of grant to travel to Europe and find and study old manuscripts and make transcriptions. I did look into it a little bit but could not even imagine a way to make it happen.

Fortunately, some people have done such things, and more lute music is available in good, readable editions these days. But there is a great deal more out there. I used to love poking around in the library at Youngstown State University, where I attended the Dana School of Music. A previous guitar teacher had somehow gotten funding and collected stacks of scholarly anthologies of early music. I don't know if much of anyone besides me was looking at those books. I suppose they're still there....

I've been curious (I think we've discussed it here before) about what sources the young Chopin might have had for earlier Polish "serious" music as well as for folk music. Exactly what was available in the library at the Warsaw Conservatory, I wonder, and what use did he make of it? For example, I wonder if he figured out how to read old keyboard tablature?

Mark: Chopin's mind can be a dark and twisty place, but I still like to spend time there.

Elene

btb: Cool!
And BTW not only was I wrong in my guess for #5, I was even wrong in the answer I thought I had found!

I thought it was Edwin Drood, which I'm familiar with from the play that was made from it in the '80's.

Reminds me that it was Peter Sellers in the guise of "rock idol" ( I forget the name) who
spoke knowingly of "Chopping and Hidin'.

Hilarious!

Dang Thai Son interview

Largely about playing Chopin.

Elene

I wonder if you've noticed this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1818371/1.html

I've had the thought that it would be great to be a fly on the wall and observe someone going through the process of learning the Fantaisie-Impromptu. What candlelightpiano is doing here is similar to that.

You'll see posts from Sam Rose, who was playing the piece pretty competently after just a bit more than a year of piano experience and no lessons. Now he's working on the G minor Ballade! This is such a completely foreign way of learning, to me, that it's very hard to imagine what he has done. It's going to be fascinating to see how he develops.

(You will NOT be seeing videos of me practicing the Impromptu anytime soon-- which is fortunate for you!)

One way or another, it's great to see people being so inspired by music, Chopin's music in particular.

The other night I heard our formerly local pianist Elias-Axel Pettersson play a recital. The centerpiece of the program was a piece written for him by our excellent Albuquerque composer Michael Mauldin, but the recital began and ended with substantial Chopin works. I sat with Michael and another of our pianist-composers, Suzanne Dawson, which made the performance extra fun. It was obvious how much Elias enjoyed the last piece in particular, which was the 3rd Sonata-- so the audience did too. Suzanne and I grinned through the entire last movement, and by the end we were literally laughing with glee.

This is why we do this stuff, isn't it.

Elene

BTW, something Mary-Rose came across:

http://www.iisis.net/index.php?page=fred...iw&hl=en_US

Seems extremely unlikely to me.

Elene (yet again)

I hasten to add, it's even less than extremely unlikely to me

Dam right it's unlikely!

I'm the reincarnation of Chopin!

Unless anyone else wants to claim the mantle.

ME ME ME!!!

I can't compose and can hardly play, but we are otherwise identical.

No, no, it's me!!! I have his eyes, fragile constitution, I changed religion (or to be accurate I gave up religion) etc. etc.

Works for me.

Works for me too.

Hey guys! So I'm working on the Presto con fuoco section of the Ballade, which is probably my favorite minute and a half of music I've ever heard. It's only just starting to sound kind of the way I would like it to, and if you could give me some tips on what you would change I'd be very happy

Disclosure: I haven't worked the second scale at the end up to speed yet so I sped it up in audacity for dramatic effect (it's poorly done, and you can easily tell, but it's all in good fun). The rest is unedited (promise!). Sorry about the mistakes and extreme roughness in some areas. Pile on the advice please!

Linky: http://www.box.com/s/jcz67s4qagasdj8x18bo


Edit:
Since I just started with a teacher (two lessons so far) and we mostly covered technical issues, I haven't had any of his advice yet on this bit of music, and the "technique" and "interpretation" are therefore of my own invention. We will discuss it eventually (when I get back to NY and have another lesson) but I'd like your advice for now!


EDIT 2:

And for comparison's sake, here's a recording I took in early December. I apologize in advance
http://www.box.com/s/p4exn2v1rr6xpmnlsijs

Not bad! In fact, it's sort of pretty good!

The first scale, by the way, is terrific.
And the second one....you've got great "tech" technique.
If you hadn't said that you sped it up, I wouldn't have suspected anything.

BTW, you're playing that little phrase at 1:01 an octave up from where it's supposed to be!

I wouldn't WANT to be the reincarnation of Chopin.* Too much responsibility! CA, maybe you're his spiritual niece or something?

Sam, I just don't know what to say about the fact that you're playing even parts of the Ballade. It doesn't seem possible, after so little time and so few other pieces, yet you are doing it. What is your new teacher having you study? It seems to me that if you would stop and take a breath for a while, work on developing basic skills, reading, ear training, theory, etc., everything you do would be that much easier and better. You would have the flexibility to play lots of pieces that way. But it's hard to advise because your path of learning is so unusual. I would honestly say, though, that even though you love the Ballade so much, it would probably better to put off really serious work on it for a while. It's a very major piece, as you know. That's my 2 cents, and may be worth no more to you than that.

*To the best of my knowledge he hasn't returned to the planet as a new person, but reincarnation doesn't appear to be linear, so it's possible that some other aspect of the same being is incarnate now, or however these things work... if somebody seemed to remember being him, it would be awfully interesting, wouldn't it.

Elene

I agree -- including about the ambivalence that you imply. From a piano-learning standpoint, I would say it's ill advised for him to be working on the piece. However, I know what it's like to have unusual paths of learning -- for better and for worse I've had those too -- and I can identify with just really, really wanting to work on a particular piece.

I think too often it is assumed that someone studying piano (or anything else) is interested in a good path of learning. This might sound absurd, but people aren't necessarily very interested in that, and it's not necessarily bad if they aren't. I can well imagine that Sam might have little or no enthusiasm for the abstract thing of "learning to play piano better," but extreme enthusiasm for learning this piece. I can also imagine that for some people of that mind, if they were persuaded that it's a bad idea to work on the ballade, the alternative wouldn't be that they'd be working on other music in a more 'sensible' way -- but that they wouldn't have the interest to be working on music at all.

So, I don't know.

Hmmm...

It's interesting to see people dissecting me and my motives like this. Basically, I'm not just interested in learning this ONE piece (although I really love it and want to learn it and be able to play it well). I'd like to learn to play the instrument. I've spent a fair amount of time reading some introductory theory, I've done some scales, some other pieces, some sight reading exercises, etc. It's not just the Ballade 24/7.

It's a long term goal, and I work on other things at the same time, all with the intent of reaching the goal, which is to be able to play the piano "well" and this piece in particular. There are now many pieces on my list, and I recognize that if I don't work on my other skills as well, each one will be a monumental task. But that's not what I'm doing. I AM working on many other things at the same time (perhaps not as much as I should be, but I am doing it). I realize the path I took is very unconventional, but that's a byproduct of my personality. I don't like doing things the way "everyone else" does them, if I can help it. Since I've seen success with the path I was taking, I stayed on it. Unlike the girl arguing on the pianist corner thread "Constructive criticism" ( I think), I enjoy playing almost no matter what I do. I just love the feeling of making music and connecting with the instrument, and I don't find practice to be a burden at all, even though I'm never going to be Horowitz. With that said, working on music that really speaks to me, and progressing in that music, is tremendous motivation for me to work, and work hard, as Mark C speculated. If I had an old lady teaching me from the beginning and telling me what I could and could not play, I would likely be miserable and probably not get nearly as much joy from the piano as I do. This is one reason I am somewhat grateful that I did not have lessons as a kid.

The Ballade is a long term project which I plan to continue running side by side with my learning of the piano. It will be finished when it is finished; there is no deadline. I'm just enjoying the ride, which, to me, is what music is all about.


P.S.
You can watch the video of that clip:


(that second scale is not sped up there, so it's not as dramatic)
@Mark C: Thanks for letting me know about the wrong notes. I'll fix it ASAP

@Elene: Any suggestions on the playing?

I certainly feel so.

Well, Sam, you wrote, "Pile on the advice, please!" So that's what we've tried to do.

You've done remarkable work so far on that section of the Ballade and I have nothing in particular to say about it. It seems to be going in the right direction. I've worked on this piece, but that was a few years ago. I never really learned it, and I wouldn't have specific thoughts to convey about it without working through it again.

(BTW, I'm still struggling along on the Fantaisie-Impromptu, but yesterday for the first time I got some segments up to tempo! I've been stalled at something like 7/8 of a good tempo for quite a while, and it was a huge thrill to feel what it really should be like even for just a few moments. I learn piano music very slowly so it may still be some time before it's all the way there. I appreciate the inspiration from Sam and others here.)

Elene

THAT'S A GOOD TEMPO.

I think I would have said that (although maybe not in caps) even if I didn't know what piece you were talking about.

If someone said they were only up to "half" tempo, that's one thing. But I think both we and any listeners would be hard-pressed to ever think that seven-eighths of anything for anything isn't enough to be OK. I say that if one ever gets stalled like that on "7/8," forget about it -- not about the piece, but about speeding it up -- don't worry about it, and just work on making it work (and on enjoying it!) at that tempo. And maybe the speed takes care of itself eventually, but even if it doesn't, it's no problem.



3/4?? I'm not sure.

P.S. Speak of the devil....

As if on cue.....
Carey did a post on Pianist Corner about Ruth Slenczynska's recital of last night.

You might be particularly interested in this part:

For an encore, Slenczynska played a leisurely rendition of Chopin's "Minute Waltz..."


I mean, if she can do a leisurely rendition of the Minute Waltz....

Mark, I think I know what you mean, and thanks for the encouragement. The thing with the Fantaisie-Impromptu is that if it doesn't reach a certain "escape velocity," it just doesn't sound like itself. Does that make sense? I don't know how to describe it better.

But when I mentioned to my tuner a while back that I was working on it and that it was going to be a long slog to get it up to tempo, he said, "How do you know what the tempo is supposed to be?" I would say, in this case, "the way it's usually played." Yet, we know (as my tuner pointed out) that pianists have been playing faster and faster over the decades, and some pieces are now "usually played" at speeds that threaten to break the Einstein limit and are not particularly musical that way.

The D flat waltz is one of those, and I don't mind the idea of a "leisurely rendition." I'd like to hear it.

I was thinking about this issue in relation to the scherzo from Chopin's 3rd sonata, having heard it live a week ago. The triple meter feel got lost, and I think this may happen mostly because people are pushing for speed at all costs. But maybe not; Horowitz's recording of the scherzo from Barber's piano sonata unnerved me because the meter is all over the place in a manner that I find quite uncomfortable, whereas I expect it to stay in a dancing, bouncing 3, and I'm not sure the speed itself is the issue, as he could handle that. Any thoughts?

At any rate, I am extremely unlikely to be able to play anything so fast that I could be accused of excessive speed.

(I have heard people speak of the Impromptu as being an easy piece, and/or of the speed being no problem....)

Elene

Absolutely it does, and I took that into account. Obviously I'm being theoretical, including because I don't know exactly what speed you're talking about!
But even taking all of that into account, I hold to what I said. There actually are some pieces where I sort of wouldn't -- like, recently I commented about a Mendelssohn piece that it really needed to go faster -- and I think "an extra 1/8" would have been all that's needed. But I also mentioned on there that there are certain things he could do to make his current speed "work" -- so, even with a piece that's an exception, I think it really isn't. And I'd pretty confidently hold to it on the Fantaisie Impromptu. But that thing about making certain adjustments to make it work at the slightly slower tempo is important. It's impossible to specify in the abstract exactly what kinds of things that would be. But in any event, I for one would much prefer a nice, musical performance at 7/8 speed -- even if it were to sound a little slow, which I think it wouldn't -- than a full-speed performance that sounds like a struggle.


Great example -- because that happens to be a piece where I did "struggle" to get it up to a tempo that I thought was necessary! IMO it's the hardest movement of the piece (at least for me it is), even though of course the last movement is famous for being hard and many pianists say the 1st movement is even harder. I haven't performed it in a few years, and if I did, I'd follow the advice I'm giving here. I didn't then. One time when I was playing the sonata in an amateur competition, being at the disadvantage of not having practiced it for weeks because I didn't imagine that I'd reach that round, but with the first movement having gone surprisingly well, I hit the 2nd movement at the speed I usually aimed for. Right away I said to myself "OK, I guess I'm going for 2nd prize" because a lot of the notes just weren't coming out. I don't think the triple meter was getting lost, but a lot of the notes were.

I would guess that with the pianist you heard, very likely it's exactly what you said, assuming that the person isn't just unmusical. It could be that the speed was too fast for the meter to come out, or that the person just couldn't do what needed to be done to make the meter come out at that speed, or that his/her focus on speed kept him/her from really being able to listen to what was coming out.

Mark, it's fascinating to have the chance to talk with someone who can actually play all this stuff!

About the 3rd sonata scherzo: I pulled up all the recordings I could find, and I think that either a) this "meter loss" is a general issue among many pianists, or b) it has something to do with the way I hear and process the piece in my own brain. The latter seems more likely. The piece starts on an upbeat, but it sounds to me, the way it's generally played, like the first notes are the downbeat. Then the triple meter never really comes through after that. I am biased toward danceable rhythms, and I think the underlying dance sensibility is a great strength of Chopin's music, so that is important to me. IF I could play this piece, which I can't, I would hope to emphasize the triple-y scherzo quality. I'd be very interested to hear how you play it, Mark, even if some notes are missing.

It was Elias-Axel Pettersson who I heard play it live last week, and I can't fault his overall musicality on the sonata at all. His rendition of the scherzo was about the average of how people are playing it, I guess.

Chopin did indicate that this piece was supposed to go quite fast, but of course we can only speculate about how fast he actually wanted it. We might wonder, too, whether the effect was different on an 1840s piano-- one might get away with more speed and yet keep more clarity on the lighter instruments.

Tempo of the Fantaisie-Impromptu: One person who has played it relatively slowly was Artur Rubinstein (who was still going Warp 8 at least on that scherzo). It is not slow by any means, but it is noticeably slower than most versions that I've heard. Since he presumably could have played it at any speed he wished, this must have been a conscious choice. Interestingly, someone has posted recordings on YouTube of Rubinstein playing both the Fontana version (in 1951) and the original given to the Baroness d'Est (in 1964).

A significantly slower rendition could probably work musically, I agree, but it would sound like rather a different piece.

I had something of a shock when I listened to a YouTube of Alfred Cortot playing the Impromptu in 1933. It's a mess! Lots of wrong notes, bumpy throughout. Even given that these older recordings are often not so perfected as modern, heavily edited ones, this one was an unpleasant surprise, and I didn't hear it as being musically wonderful enough to make up for its deficiencies. Sam's recording is much smoother than that one, actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Chn0qYtpkM

Well, I hope to get to the level of that Cortot recording, anyway. Not to the level of Cortot in general, of course, but at least as good as that one recording!

Elene

As a general matter I share that feeling (not just about this piece). I've often had debates with teachers who told me I was emphasizing the downbeat too much in such situations. I explained that I wanted to give a feeling of the beat, especially to avoid any impression of it being other than where it is -- and I was always told, don't worry about that, it's not worth it and it's counterproductive. Of course that doesn't mean I followed that.
I have taken it as a precautionary note and tried to make sure not to be overly heavy-handed about the beat, but I continue to feel it's important to try to avoid any impression for the listener like what you're saying.

Off the subject, but IMO the most noteworthy example of such a thing -- not exactly about an upbeat being ambiguous but more generally about getting fooled by the opening meter unless the performers take pains to avoid a wrong impression -- is Beethoven's 5th.

Most people think (I'm pretty sure) that the opening figure is a triplet. It isn't -- it's three 8th notes. The whole figure is (of course) a pickup to the first long note. Everybody knows that. But besides that, the first note is a mini-pickup to the second note. If I were conducting the piece, I'd make sure that the orchestra gives a slight stress to that second note -- very slight, but just enough to be present. In my experience, few performances do that, presumably because the conductor can't imagine that this would be an issue, since he's so familiar with what the rhythm actually is.

In this movement of the scherzo, I'm pretty sure I did give the 3rd note a slight stress. And come to think of it, this really is fairly analogous to the Beethoven, because even though that 3rd note is the 1st beat of a measure, in effect that whole measure together with those first 2 notes are essentially all a pickup to the next measure, which is where the first strong beat really occurs. I'm not sure I thought of it explicitly this way before, but I'm pretty sure I did put a tiny stress on that 3rd note, and a bigger one on the 1st beat of the 2nd full measure.

I bet you didn't expect all that, did you....



Absolutely!!


Thanks! I have recordings of some of my performances of the piece and maybe eventually I'll dig them up and post something from them. But since those are from a few years ago, I have a feeling that if I listen to them now, I'll go "nah." You know how it is -- even just a week later, anything we played seems obsolete.
("Obsolete" being a euphemism for "sucks.")

A very good point, that what we hear or think we are hearing when we are extremely familiar with a piece may not be what a new listener hears at all. Interesting about Beethoven's 5th.

It's necessary to emphasize what you want the listener to pick up, though not to the point of being ridiculous, of course. I always tend to underdo dynamic changes, especially, and have to be reminded to make them obvious.

In dance performances, we have to be very conscious to use our eyes and hands to point the audience to exactly where we want them to look, and we have to make larger-amplitude movements than we might do on our own, especially on a large stage.

Elene

Me again. I was reading through the first movement of Our Friend's first sonata last night, and I'm wondering again: Why is this piece held in such low esteem? I like it! (Especially since, unlike most parts of the other two sonatas, I can actually play it.) The first movement is a bit long, but it's interesting. The second movement (his only minuet) is great fun. The third movement is beautiful and innovative. The fourth movement I'm not so crazy about, but it is by no means terrible.

What am I missing? Dr. Jeff?

Elene

Elene: Don't ask me; I hear it pretty much the way you do!

Jeff Kallberg

And so do I!

I'm in good company, then.

Elene