What if you want a new piano and you've given your dealer several opportunities to earn your business but you still think the price is too high and they won't come down any further and they have a monopoly where you live?

$8k for a U1 delivered seems high to me.

No one will quote prices over the phone. Do you guys just take vacations and travel the country looking for the best deal, then rent a U-Haul and drive it back?

Or do you give in to the dealer and just enjoy the instrument knowing that you got ripped but it was a worthwhile investment and you didn't settle for a chinese alternative?

What does where the piano was built have anything to do with it?

No I would not do business with a dealer who I thought was trying to gouge me for a couple thousand extra. But then again I wouldn't start shopping out of town for just a few hundred bucks, either.

My real question would be how is this guy to deal with after the sale? I'll pay extra (started to say "gladly pay extra" but let's don't get carried away!) within reason to deal with someone a) local and b) who I feel is going to be excellent to deal with for routine maint. and/or warranty stuff. But I'd have to get the serious warm and fuzzies to pay that kind of money for a U1.

P.S. Pianos are a "purchase" not an "investment" in the best of circumstances. You're not going to get all your money back out of selling a new piano...doubly so if you pay a couple grand over the going rate up front. That's just more money that's gone the day you sign the check.

I think you can do better than 8K but to call it a rip..I don't know.

Everything you buy for example a set of cloths, iphone, laptop, pc, flat screen, tennis shoes, football game tickets, etc. all these has margins well over 60%.
Fast-food; think about it, you order your own food, you bring it to the table, you clean your own table, they sell you garbage that's bad for your body, on top of that you have to pay for it.
Have you been ripped off all your life?
Can you get half of what you paid for those items 5 years from now?
Can you get half of what you paid for your piano 5 years from now?

Look at Apple; they truly have a monopoly, everywhere you go the prices are fixed. The company has billions in revenues and yet they get celebrated by the media and the population of the country. OTH you have the piano industry barely surviving and if a dealer decides for a healthy margin, then they get crucified and regarded practically robbers.
U1 at 8K out the door it is not close to 40% margin. The fact that a dealer doesn't want to wholesale a product it doesn't mean they are a bunch of thieves.

Just imagine that you'll have to go work and your company will pay you only the cost of your transportation and your lunch, if you ask for anything else above the minimum cost of your service; you'll be consider a rip.

Talk to your local dealer or make a reasonable offer.

Not sure where you live but I live just outside NYC and there are maybe only three dealers in the area to work with. That being said......it seems the smaller mom and pop ones won't budge for a variety of reasons. If you buy a new Yamaha it comes from a warehouse most of the time. It's a maufacture warranty. Why not travel a little to save? If something goes wrong with the piano it's a factory warranty issue.

What about the territorial agreements among dealers of certain brands?

I don’t know… I wonder just much those territorial agreements are honored in this economy. It would have to be tempting to a struggling dealer to sell a new piano out of their territory.

As far as getting ripped off… you haven’t purchased anything yet, so I don’t see how you could be getting ripped. That is how capitalism works… buyers and sellers come to an agreement on price or not.

Rick

Dealers in the NYC area are going to cost more because it's a high-cost area, and they have to pay more for everything (rent, utilities, etc.). I don't think they could stay in business and quote the kinds of prices you could get in the Midwest.

The problem with out-of-town shopping for pianos is that piano moves are EXPENSIVE. Retail prices for a cross-country piano move can run between $1,000 and $2,500. Some dealers may be able to work a better deal, but consider moving costs and not just selling price.

Superdog,

If the U1 is what you like and your local dealer has one, why not try to strike a deal? What I mean is, decide what you think is a fair price and offer it to them. If they take it then you both win, if not, walk and give them a few days to reconsider. Don't call them back but make sure they know how to contact you - something like "when you are ready to sell that piano for $xxx, call me. Hopefully it will not be too late for you in case I find something else I like."

Good luck,

Jonathan

1. 8k for a new Yamaha U1, delivered, is not a rip off. Things cost more than they did five years ago. Get used to it.

2. Dealers (regardless of their brands) are not allowed to quote prices over the phone.

3. If you were buying an expensive, high end piano, it would make sense to do a nation-wide search, but that's not what you're buying. You will likely pay more money, in the long run, if you shop far away because any amount you save will be eaten up by traveling expenses, shipping, and sales tax (which you are still required to pay for out of state purchases).

4. Chinese pianos aren't crap. Yamaha even makes some of its pianos in China, and they're pretty nice.

Lol, yes, but I wonder how many people have actually made out a check to their state tax office for an out-of-state purchase that they saved the sales tax on. Probably about the same number of people who would put a $20 bill in the local "Lost & Found" that found blowing around outside on the ground. Personally, I have never seen this law enforced.

A $500 - $600 sales tax savings would probably ship your piano a long way. I would search the archives on this forum or ask others here to tell you what they paid for a new Yamaha U1 (in a new thread and have them contact you by PM if they are more comfortable) and then go to the dealer with this offer. If he won't budge on the price, you can always contact other dealers by phone and make the same offer. Maybe they can't quote a price on the phone, but they can sure entertain an offer.

By the way, what part of the country are you in?

The dealers that are still in business despite the economy are those with a higher profit margin. Many of the low priced dealers are out of business. A dealer has to make a certain profit margin to keep the doors open. Are you (the OP) coming across to the dealer as someone who has to have the rock bottom price, or you feel ripped off? You are coming across that way to me. Perhaps a different approach to the dealer is in order, and you may get a better response.

You are right this law is not enforced in regular basis. However certain estates have incentives for freight companies to report high ticket items that came into their territory.
On the other hand any citizen can report you anonymously depending on how agressive is the local tax board of equalization; they will pursue the claim. In other words if a local dealer have your contact information can provided to the board.
In a way our goverment needs these taxes to subsidies unemployment checks, welfare and food stamps.

For one thing, MSRP on a U1 is $10k. It used to be $11k. How did that happen?

Still, $8k < $10k. 10 years ago and in some places 5 years ago, piano were sold somewhere near MSRP and very often higher. 30+ years ago, some manufacturers actually stamped the price into the piano and that is what you paid. If you want to do better, you absolutely have a lot of choices, but the price with allowance for local sales tax, delivery and service, probably represents closer to 30% off. For that reason, you can't cry foul.

If you make the effort to shop at other dealers, I bet your price will drop, but there are no price "entitlements." It's certainly easy to find a used U1 if you're not open to other pianos.

Kurtmen,

I think the Internet has been one of the biggest contributors to an increase in interstate commerce and from what I understand Congress is reluctant to pass any bill that will enforce the collection of taxes on interstate purchases for fear of essentially shutting down most of the trade that the Internet has been responsible for. Everyone likes to get a good deal and no one likes paying taxes, so I suspect what we have now will be the status quo for a long time forth. When I contacted a piano dealer in CT (I'm in NJ), one of the first things he mentioned is that by buying through him, I would not have to pay sales tax. And just for the record so you don't "anonymously" report me -- I did pay NJ sales tax on my piano which was purchased in NJ

To the OP, my advice: do your research on price and make the local dealer an offer with your research in hand. Good luck.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean anything personal, please don't get me wrong. That wouldn't be the way to treat somebody in the Kawai family.
We are glad you bought a Kawai piano. I think you should help the original poster to and tell him why did you buy a Kawai over a Yamaha or other brands. Perhaps you should help them get the same price and help the dealer who gave such a nice deal to make an extra sale.

In fact I'm sorry for putting pressure on the price issue, I think that anybody that champions our products should be welcomed regardless what price they paid.
Thousands of dollars are paid for endorsments and offering a good deal to somebody in return for free advertising; I think is not a bad deal. Sincerely you made me realized something.

Have a sit and enjoy your piano

Superdog,

Forget about your local dealer, I'm sure Kurtmen will extend you a great deal on a U1 -- the only caveat is that you will have to pay state sales tax on your piano even though it's coming to your state all the way from California. Welfare and food stamps in your state probably ain't cheap, not to mention the money we give to countries like Pakistan! But don't worry, your hard earned money will be put to good use as I understand there will be some great pianos coming out of that country in the next couple of decades! LOL

Got any evidence to back up these claims?
I bet the dealers in iphone/flat screen would be delighted with margins that were anywhere near that.

I just thought I'd pop in hear with a link to the Pianobuyer.com page on new Yamaha prices--it might help you feel better about whether or not your dealer is giving you a good deal or not. According to this list, $8000 for a new yamaha U1 is lower than their "suggested maximum price" for any model U1 (which is way lower than the "manufacturers suggersted price" (list price).
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/249.html
HTH

There's only a dollar difference between those two prices.

In the USA dealers are not allowed to say the price on the phone but sell pianos with 20% discount of the MSRP? Wow

Yes, but we all want to be upstanding Americans, don't we?

I would be surprised, too. When I worked for a university bookstore, the retail markup was typically around 20%.

What a concept. One knows exactly what a product costs.

Walk in to a piano store and look at the prices listed on the pianos.
Usually completely dishonest.... which reflects both the dealer and manufacturer.

If incentive is given to consumers that can hustle and dealers that can swindle,
no wonder piano dealers are going down.

Pianos aren't going out of style,
but the way they're marketed and sold,
leaves much to be desired.

How far away is your next-nearest dealer? When I bought my piano recently, I traveled to a dealer that was about 3 1/2 hours away. I wouldn't travel halfway across the country, but you might need to widen your search radius if your local dealer sucks. I exchanged a lot of emails with this particular dealer, and they quoted my prices by email. If they weren't willing to give me a ballpark figure upfront, there's no way I would've driven all that way. I've made that mistake before.

So now it's automatically dishonest when the final price differs from the sticker price?

What is going on on this thread? I am not happy about it. There are many types of sales in which the final price is not the same as the sticker price--cars, jewelry, etc. Moreover, if a store insists on the sticker price, you have only to wait a given period of time and the item will go on sale. Either way--whether the price is negotiable or the item will go on sale--the sticker price is not the final price. It is perhaps noteworthy that the ONE car manufacturer that (at least in theory) refused to negotiate prices is now GONE, at least in part (I would bet) because consumers WANTED to negotiate. Saturn, anyone?

And monopolies are now a good thing, because monopolists get the prices they demand? I am an Apple person myself, but not because the sticker price is actually what one pays.

Moreover, since when are consumers all good? Why are people assuming that consumers are not lying to the piano salesopersons they encounter about prices that the consumers are (allegedly) seeing elsewhere? I am not saying that anyone here or anywhere else is misrepresenting anything. I am, however, questioning indiscriminate assumptions about who is the good guy and who the bad. I have known (and know now) both wonderful piano dealers and consumers who are happy to misrepresent prices elsewhere in order to try to reduce the price of something.

If I were a dealer in anything, and a consumer came to me and said "I can get X price on something elsewhere," and the price were ridiculous, I would say "Fine, go buy it at the elsewhere."

And by the way, I am a consumer with no ties to any aspect of the piano industry whatsoever.

fortunately in my area there are multiple dealers. i have bought two pianos in the past 14 years. both times i wanted to buy at particular store / brand. they would not budge from their (overly inflated) price and i politely let them know they were quite a bit out of line on their pricing for comparable models at other dealers. they pulled that "Fine, go buy it at the elsewhere" line on me, both times i did go buy elsewhere for a better price. the "go buy elsewhere" dealer is no longer in business. wonder why? probably not because their markup was too low.

gw

The MSRP listed in Piano Buyer is supplied by the manufacturer. Some manufacturers establish very high MSRPs and other, like Yamaha more reasonable when compare to wholesale. Therefore If you calculate discounts from the MSRP, you can easily be misled.

The SMP on the other hand, is calculated with a formula from the wholesale cost. )It happens that Yamaha, to their credit) uses basically the same formula to calculate MSRP.)

Typical discounts from the SMP range from 10%-30%. In the OPs case it was 20%. Where in the range a dealer can sell depends on many factors, such as rents, cost of living in the market, sales volume, and a miriad of other factors.

The price quoted was not a rip-off and might well be a good price in the local market. It is unreasonable to demand that all dealers, regardless of their costs of doing business or their uncontrollable overhead items match prices from dealers in remote narkets that have different business circumstances.

I think the OP will find that the local offer of $8000 IS his best deal considering additional costs and risk of buying outside the local market.

I'm with Rank Piano Amateur on this one... just because a piano dealer is asking a higher price and sticking to it doesn't mean they are a crook or dishonest. They are doing what business people do... trying to get the highest price possible for their goods/merchandise. And, the prospective customer does have the right to go else ware, just like the dealer has a right not to bend on their prices.

There is no doubt that supply and demand rules, as well as competition principles. But we shouldn’t classify/label a dealer as dishonest because they are firm on their price.

I’m sure we all have sold something before, possibly a big-ticket item. We all know how it is when someone offers us a ridiculously low price… it’s easy to say no, unless we are desperate to sell.

Rick

Completely agree!

Shopping for anything is a true two-way street. The seller is "shopping" for your money just as much as you're shopping for his goods/services. The minute the buyer forgets that, he has surrendered.

They call it "purchasing power" for a reason!

- not happy





Perhaps I'm a fool , but I've always paid "sticker" price, even on a new car purchased back 4 years ago. Haven't bought jewelry , so can't comment. If something is on sale that's still the sticker price.
My piano purchase negotiation took about 30 seconds and both seller and myself were content.




My products sell at the "sticker" price and I purchase products the same way.

Dara,

I won't claim to have avoided some perfunctory haggling on various new-car purchases but I'm with you that there's more to life than the endless pursuit of discounts.

For my part, if you told me I could buy a piano today for the "sticker" price of $8,000 or I could spend several hours over the next two months haggling it down to $7,500 I'd spend the $8,000 with no qualms at all. Knowing someone, somewhere bought a similar piano for less money than me does not cost me any sleep.

That said, if I had $7,500 in my pocket but not $8,000 I'd be tempted to at least mention that to the dealer as a offer.