Hi folks - new member here.

I'm just in the process of buying myself a flat - which (naturally!) will revolve around the recording studio. And I thought I'd take the opportunity to get myself a grand piano.

Being a composer more than a performer (and with particular interest in electronic / environmental music) I'm not very well-up on the intricacies of the piano world, so I thought I'd seek some advice on here.

Having been round the local dealers, the pianos which have struck me most were the Kawai RX range. Speaking to the dealer on the phone, he told me that the RXs all share basically the same action, and he felt the greatest difference between them lay in the quality of the tone. But playing them, what struck me most was the wonderfully light and responsive feel of the RX-6 (a heavy action is a no-no for me). The RX-1, 2 and 3 seemed to me to have a significantly less light feel, with my preference here actually being for the RX-1. These were all new pianos.

So - at last! - my question.

Is this difference in feel / action likely to be due to the model - i.e. RX-6 over the others? Or will there be a discernible variability between different individual pianos of the same model, with each having their own unique character?

Regards -

Gordon

I think it has to do with key lengths, which are related to the size of the piano. The length could mean a different feel for the weight/leverage.

Also, regulation and voicing could affect perceived touch. A very mellow piano might seem like it requires a heavier touch, even though it's touchweight is exactly the same as a bright piano.

I agree that it is partly to do with key length in the longer RX models, but also much depends on the quality of the preparation and regulation of each instrument prior to selling.

There is also that "je ne sais quoi" variability which is the nature of pianos which are made mainly of wood.

Even Kawai's Millenium III actions still have certain critical components made from organic materials eg wood, felt, leather etc.

Regards,
Robert.

I strongly doubt that there are large measurable differences in the key weight from model to model, as there are standard ranges for that. It probably has more to do with the psycho-acoustic feedback. A larger, more acoustically live piano may seem easier to play because of the volume and fullness of the tone which is emanating from the instrument. Loud pianos often give the perception of having a light touch, because you don't have to "dig in" to get a real wall of sound out of them. I have had clients wanting me to "make the touch heavier" when what was needed was a voicing of the hammers.

The touch of any given piano will be based comprised of the various action ratios, friction, how much lead weight is in the keys, voicing, and regulation. More often than not, pianos with heavy touch suffer from bad prep (even at the factory).

For whatever reason, Kawais, to me, usually feel heavy and sloppy, with older ones being particularly bad. Rest assured, you can modify the touch of pretty much any piano, but it will not be cheap.

It would, as said before, be a mixture of the perceived feel from the amount and quality of sound, the voicing, the key leverage and the regulations on that particular piano. Even two of the same pianos can feel very different when the above is different. However, i doubt the Kawai actions are sloppy and heavy, although i'll admit some have a nicely heavy feel.

Well, if you liked the RX-6 the best, get that.

Part of the prep of any piano is making sure the touch and tone are even. As fine as the Kawai RX action is, it can benefit from skilled attention (and suffer from not having it).

as all actions benefit/suffer from skilled attention/lack of thereof.

I don't want to sound like a broken record on the issue of Kawai: a beautiful but entirely unique tone, somewhat dense in the temperament octave (C3-C4); and the RX haven't really changed that much since the original Kawais hit the market 40 plus years ago. Better than a sub-par Steinway, but not equal (quite) to a perfect Yamaha, or Estonia, or Petrof--at least to my ears.

At this end of the market, you're really listening to individual instruments, and of course to the nature of the tuning and voicing of the instrument that you happen to be playing at the shop. The variations can be... well... huge, and at 15-20k US the room for error/freedom of choice/risk etc is actually quite enormous.

Everything said above about the relationship between touch/regulation and tone is fundamental... hugely important.

Having said this much.... my own experience, playing a 5ft 10in Kawai for the last 40 years is that there are, for the money (to put it crudely) significantly BETTER pianos on the market--new and used. Not sure how much room you have in your digs, but you ought to give a listen to the Hailun 218 (unrepentently Chinese) and the 6ft 1in Brodmann, and RIGHT next to--meaning "in the same room as"--a good Steinway or Bos. I can assure you that these little Chinese companies are making instruments that, in many instances (not all), are comparable to the very best German instruments, and well beyond anything the Japanese or Koreans can afford to produce.

There's an ethical issue. The cost of labour is light years lower in China, although Hailun--the only "private" (non-state-governed) piano company in the country pays much higher wages than the state norm. So even Korea can't really compete. And classical piano is all the rage in China, both on the mainland and in Hong Kong.... the way it used to be in the West 50 plus years ago. So the market and the expectations for really good instruments is actually very, very high. The crappy, God-aweful Chinese instruments are still easily found in many Western shops: junk pianos. I won't dignify these by mentioning their psuedo-German monikers. Let's just say that if you can play a few Hailuns (I'm familiar with them--right up against some decent Steinways or (God-forbid) Schimmels, you will get a pretty good idea of what's attainable in the current market.

Everything's changing.... and very quickly. Don't rest content with a good (but not Great-I'm-Afraid) Japanese or even Korean instrument (as good as many of them are) when you can get close to the Gold Standard buying (Shock... Horror) a Hailun or W and L or even (more expensive) a "Brodmann."

JG

I don't want to sound like a broken record on the issue of Kawai: a beautiful but entirely unique tone, somewhat dense in the temperament octave (C3-C4); and the RX haven't really changed that much since the original Kawais hit the market 40 plus years ago. Better than a sub-par Steinway, but not equal (quite) to a perfect Yamaha, or Estonia, or Petrof--at least to my ears.

At this end of the market, you're really listening to individual instruments, and of course to the nature of the tuning and voicing of the instrument that you happen to be playing at the shop. The variations can be... well... huge, and at 15-20k US the room for error/freedom of choice/risk etc is actually quite enormous.

Everything said above about the relationship between touch/regulation and tone is fundamental... hugely important.

Having said this much.... my own experience, playing a 5ft 10in Kawai for the last 40 years is that there are, for the money (to put it crudely) significantly BETTER pianos on the market--new and used. Not sure how much room you have in your digs, but you ought to give a listen to the Hailun 218 (unrepentently Chinese) and the 6ft 1in Brodmann, and RIGHT next to--meaning "in the same room as"--a good Steinway or Bos. I can assure you that these little Chinese companies are making instruments that, in many instances (not all), are comparable to the very best German instruments, and well beyond anything the Japanese or Koreans can afford to produce.

There's an ethical issue. The cost of labour is light years lower in China, although Hailun--the only "private" (non-state-governed) piano company in the country pays much higher wages than the state norm. So even Korea can't really compete. And classical piano is all the rage in China, both on the mainland and in Hong Kong.... the way it used to be in the West 50 plus years ago. So the market and the expectations for really good instruments is actually very, very high. The crappy, God-aweful Chinese instruments are still easily found in many Western shops: junk pianos. I won't dignify these by mentioning their psuedo-German monikers. Let's just say that if you can play a few Hailuns (I'm familiar with them--right up against some decent Steinways or (God-forbid) Schimmels, you will get a pretty good idea of what's attainable in the current market.

Everything's changing.... and very quickly. Don't rest content with a good (but not Great-I'm-Afraid) Japanese or even Korean instrument (as good as many of them are) when you can get close to the Gold Standard buying (Shock... Horror) a Hailun or W and L or even (more expensive) a "Brodmann."

JG

Hallo, What everybody said plus, the RX-6 is a such a wonderful instrument that I'm sure it's been played more than the others you mentioned. Actions do ease as they break in.

johngrant,

Nice infomercial. How is that in any way relevant to the OP's question?

It seems that the purchaser is keen on a Kawai, but not entirely settled on a Kawai! I could be wrong.

I don't work for ANY piano company, and I never have. I'm just a poor slob who loves pianos and who doesn't particularly love parting with his money. I feel duty bound to tell anyone like me out there who's about to fork out big bucks on a nice instrument that the Japanese don't own the midrange segment anymore. I think something very big is now happening in the piano market (for better or worse..), much bigger than when the Koreans starting flooding the market with pianos 30 years ago.

I love Kawai. Spent over 40 years with the 5ft 10 inch predecessor to the RX. I'm almost emotionally attached to the sound, after playing my Kawai for hours a day, practically every day of my life.

But after spending almost a year looking for a replacement for my much-loved Kawai Grand--with particular attention to rebuilt Steinways, because I happen to love the tone and touch of a GOOD Steinway--I discovered that the market has radically, radically changed. Sue me: but I have to acknowledge that some of these new Chinese pianos are just leaps and bounds ahead of everything else out there. It's weird; it's astonishing, at least to me. When the Japanese pianos, which could be had for cheap back 50 years ago, hit the market, yes they were pretty darn good, especially for the money, but they were never "great." They certainly were readily distinguishable from Steinways and well-made American and European pianos. And they were always distinguishable from the cheaper Korean competition. Some of the new Chinese kids on the block, however, ARE "great." They're not a kin to Korean pianos, or even to Japanese pianos. So I tell folks like me, folks who looking for the new Kawai or Yamaha--old faithful-type midrange instruments--check out some of the Chinese stuff, it's beyond belief (in a good way).

But you're right. I've been blowing this horn a lot, lately; and I AM getting a little tired.

JG

Thanks everyone for the wealth of responses.

I think in particular the point made by several people about the relationship between perceived feel and tone/volume is a good one.

To explain a little further, the root of my query lies in the fact that the RX-6 was outside the high end of my budget, and much more than I was intending to pay (here in the UK they seem to come in at just under 30,000 pounds - i.e. around 45,000 USD)

Basically I played a fair number of pianos in several places, and was very happy with the tonal qualities of much less expensive instruments. But I kind-of fell in love with the touch and feel of playing this particular piano.

I guess my bottom-line question is - Is it possible I would be able to buy one of those more-affordable, lovely-sounding pianos, and get a piano tech to tweak the action to suit my playing preference?

Yes, it is possible through regulation of the action to suit your preferences.

And (forgive my ignorance, this is actually the first time I've bought a grand piano) would this sort of action-regulation be a fairly standard thing to get done when buying a piano of this price?

Or would it be viewed more as a tricky, arcane art, with satisfaction far from guaranteed?

"...Is it possible I would be able to buy one of those more-affordable, lovely-sounding pianos, and get a piano tech to tweak the action to suit my playing preference?"

Within limits. I did it.

"...Or would it be viewed more as a tricky, arcane art, with satisfaction far from guaranteed?"

You are more likely to be satisfied if you get an instrument whose characteristic touch and tone you like in the first place. Certainly, you can help yourself greatly if a good tech keeps the piano in regulation, voice, and tune, and a fine instrument lacking these attentions is sure to give trouble. But these things are not infinitely malleable, and their innate characteristics tend to reassert themselves. There are sow's ears from which a silk purse cannot be made, no matter what you do, or who does it.

As long as you are reasonable in your expectations and are willing to do the research and footwork to find it (the two rocks on which the ship of piano satisfaction too often goes to the bottom), you can get a good piano without putting yourself in the poorhouse.

Setting of financial priorities will be required. Some austerities may be necessary. Same as anything else.

As others have mentioned, if you can't get a piano that is exactly what you want (in terms of sound, touch, size, and price), then you need to select something that is as close as possible to your ideals, and ask that certain adjustments be made as a condition of sale. You can't expect a total change in the character of the instrument, but minor tweaks can be made.

Be careful not to buy on the promise of a deficiency being "worked out later". Make sure the piano does what you want it to do before you buy.

Only to a point, can this be done through regulation. If the piano is not regulated properly, then regulating the action will make it play better. If the piano has inertia or friction issues, that's not going to be fixed by regulating it. Those problems will require lubrication, possibly changing the action geometry, and re balancing the keyboard. And it will cost a lot... as in over 1,000USD (possibly over 2,000USD).

Thanks again folks - this info is really filling out the gaps for me.

I'm going through to the next-nearest city this week to try out the instruments resident there.

Hoping to be captivated by something a bit more affordable this time!

But as Jeff says, sacrifices elsewhere may be the answer...

If the original question was indeed:



Then I would not find

All suggestions given, action regulation, instrument variation, voicing, inertia, room acoustics, psychoacoustics ...are all valid, however only when it would concern a different action feel of various items of the same piano model, i.e. difference between two or more Kawai Rx-6s.

It is known that for e.g. Yamaha the C1 has a different action form the C2, that the C2 share the same action with the C3, that the C5 does not share it action with any other C series model and that again C6 & C7 share the same action.

So I seriously doubt all Kawai RX models (RX1 ....RX5 ..) would share the same (key length, action geometry, hammer weigth ..) action.

However I am not a Kawai specialist, so I cannot tell for sure.
I find it a pitty though - especially for the O.P. - that no Kawai dealer or factory professional chimed in.

schwammerl.

Well the info is filling in gaps, in that it's certainly providing me with knowledge I feel I need to make an informed decision.

But you are right - the original question was prompted by me noticing a very similar response in the RX1, RX2 and RX3 - and a markedly different response in the RX6 (no RX5 in the showroom). This was in the absence of the dealership owner. When I spoke to him on the phone afterwards, I was quite surprised to hear him say that they all had essentially the same (Millennium III) action, and the primary difference would be in tone. Even allowing for the psychological effect of a slightly louder piano, the action seemed to have a clear, qualitative difference, and I guess I had hoped perhaps to get the benefit of some specialist knowledge, on the innards of the RX6 as opposed to the three (heh) "entry-level" models.

I am aware that Kawai changed the action in recent years, from ABS styran to carbon fibre. Perhaps he was just trying to reassure me that all the models he had in stock used the new materials technology - rather than to suggest they all had an identically-designed action. But either way, he didn't give me any clues as to any design factors which might account for my strong perception of a difference in the RX6...

Greetings Gordon,
I would not describe the RX1, RX2 and RX3 models as "entry level" models as they are built to the same standards and have similar quality components as the longer RX6 and RX7 models.

However, the RX6 and RX7 models both have the "one piece" bridge instead of the "two piece" treble and bass bridges of the smaller models. Kawai claims that this produces a better tonal balance throughout the different registers of the piano.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the action, but as an erudite poster stated earlier, it could be the "psycho-acoustic feedback" of the experience playing that particular RX6.
Generally, longer grand pianos are more beautiful to the ear and the touch and sometimes give us that wondrous, magical impression when we sit down and play them.

Best regards,

Robert.

Heh... well "entry level" was my idea of a joke. But I guess I had wondered - seeing how they seem to have missed out an "RX4" - whether there might be some design difference between the 1/2/3 and the 5/6/7. The fact that the bridge design is different makes me even more inquisitive whether there might be a difference in the action too...

You're right - there was something magical about the impression the RX6 made. Like playing liquid silver. Gave me a lovely warm feeling in my tum. And when I improvised on it, I felt like I was working on a deeper level. As a composer, it's hard to tell yourself you can't afford that.

Hoping to find an RX5 at the Kawai dealer in the neighbouring city. That would be a crucial point of comparison - not least because the 5 comes in just under the budget upper limit I'd set.

Hi again Gordon,
There is no "RX4" because "4" is an unlucky number in some Asian cultures, especially Chinese.
The RX5 does not have the single piece bridge, but it could be a lovely piano having that extra length in the bass strings. Try it and see for yourself.
I don't think that there is any difference in the build of the actions in all of the RX pianos but there will be changes in the dimensions to fit the different sizes of piano.

Best wishes,
Robert.