Hi! I'm looking for advice. My school district has approved purchase of a baby grand for our high school performing arts center - finally. For the hall I really need a bright, vibrant tone. Due to space restrictions, we are looking at the 5'3" - 5'5" size fully well aware of the bass issues that may come with those size limitations. I played 4 pianos yesterday and I need advice on longevity, maintenance and durability. I really did not care for the Perzina - personal preference in touch and sound. I played a Hallet & Davis 5'5" and a 2 Yamaha's. I really enjoyed playing the Hallet - I'd never played one before. Nice touch with a clear vibrant tone and even action. The Yamaha's are both nice instruments - a GC1M and the C1. I know yamaha's have a history of string issues and my feeder school recently purchased a yamaha upright that has needed major work and already broken 3 strings. My past history with Yamaha's was positive, but that was when they were built in Japan. Are the current problems I've been seeing due to the move to China for manufacturing? Many (30) years ago I fell in love with a yamaha at our old church that was restrung with steinway strings. The Hallet has rosslau wire - probably a better quality(?) string.

Any help and advice would be very much appreciated!!!

This size is completely inappropriate for any decent sized hall, and a "bright" sound will not really compensate for that; indeed, it could just make the piano sound ugly.




I would not recommend either of these for an institutional setting. From first hand experience, I know that the Hallet pianos need a lot of initial work to be a decent instrument. From the factory, the touch is pretty heavy, and the keyboard felts and knuckles are pretty low quality, which lead to undesirable clicking noise as these parts age. The damper systems tend to go out of regulation, too. It's not that the Hallets can't be made to be good pianos, but they need help to get there.




I'd be hesitant to recommend this. The GC1M is a house piano, designed for non-serious playing.





Probably the sturdiest out of all the ones you mentioned, but still way too small.




In institutions, pianos are abused pretty badly. Unless the owner is willing to provide adequate maintenance, any piano will degrade quickly in a school environment.




Most Yamahas are still are made in Japan. The ones that aren't are built in Yamaha-owned factories elsewhere.



Steinway does not make strings. It buys strings from Mapes.



If you're absolutely dead-set on this size, I'd recommend:

http://fandrich.com/index.php?&location=pianos&action=view&index=18

or

http://hailun-pianos.com/products/grand-pianos/piano/2/grand_model_hg_161.html

Agreed. The words "performing arts center" and baby grand really don't belong in the same sentence. How will this piano be used, and what does the hall seat?

Of the choices you mention, the C1 is probably the safest, but certainly not a preferable size. I am unaware of any string breakage issue with this model, and it's made in Japan. You often read about string breakage issues in halls and churches where the piano is undersized, though.

Just curious - why are you buying new? How much has been allocated for this purchase? I'm guessing that there are excellent used instruments - much larger in size - that would probably work better for you. I don't have time right now - but later tonight I'll send you a website link (through a PM) to a dealer here in AZ that might be of interest to you.

Best -

A lot of institutions buy new because they don't want the hassle of finding a good used instrument that is dependable.

Understood - but sometimes the process isn't all that onerous.

I'm going to send him the link and see what he thinks.

The district wants the warranty that comes with a new instrument otherwise I'd be looking at a used instrument as you can get a much better instrument for the money.

I am well aware of the problems with the size, I'm trying to make the best possible decision based on what I'm being allowed to do. Our budget is based on those sizes. We got a quote on a C1 at $16449.00 and that is the highest priced instrument I'm being allowed to look at.

Our Performing Arts Center was built 14 years ago and seats 450. It is a relatively small hall that was designed more for theater than music purposes. The piano will be used for accompanying choir concerts, playing in jazz band concerts, etc. It will not be used by students very often. I am having a garage built in the back of the choir room to house the piano to keep the lovely adolescents from banging on it.

I appreciate the advice on the Hallet. Not being familiar with that instrument, that was exactly what I was looking for. I do not want to purchase an instrument that will be a problem. The touch on the one I played was lovely, but if it won't stand up to time it's not worth it.

I have the same feeling about the GC1M. My Fine Arts Director has one in her home which is a perfect location for it.

I appreciate the help and advice!

you can buy a C7 on ebay for $1600 - available in several locations

joking aside good luck with the search. regarding used, even used can be found at dealers; you pay pay a bit more that from an individual but they at least make sure they are in decent shape (at least the dealers in my area).

gw

Well they really should know better at that age!

There are used pianos at piano dealers too, you know. And they usually offer a warranty, if that is essential. The sizes of the new pianos you are looking at are really quite small, though. You will have to decide whether the small size will do, or look at larger pianos. The room is definitely too large, however, for the ones you are looking at.

BTW, As far as I know, the GC1M is still made in Japan.

Best of luck!

Well, kidding aside, if youre real lucky, you could well find a decent used 6' or even a 7' Used Yamaha (C or G series) at a dealer at $16000. And that's be a much better size for the hall than the five and a few inch pianos you are looking at now.

Beethoven986's comments were "spot on". I agree with everything he said. He recommended the Fandrich and the Hailun pianos to consider, which I agree with. I will add that for less than that C1, you could choose a 5'10" Hailun.

I feel more comfortable with that choice for your PAC.

http://hailun-pianos.com/products/grand-pianos/piano/6.html

Good Luck!

A new HG198 would do great, IMHO.

I'm wondering about the space restrictions. Is the space where the piano will sit for performances only capable of holding a 5'5" piano? Or, is the storage area only able to hold a piano that size?

What about the Yamaha AvantGrand N3? It's no bigger than baby grands, requires less maintenance, and you can hook it up to additional speakers for more sound to fill the PAC. It might even sound better than a baby grand.

The space restrictions are based on stage size. I have 7 risers, and a full set of choral shells that go on the stage for performances leaving not as much space as I would like for one of the larger pianos. I'm going to play on the stage with a tape measure tomorrow morning. I can do a basic layout and double check on this.

gnuboi - i hadn't thought about a hybrid. Hmmmmm. More ideas.

i play alot of small Yamahas at various churches.. there always is a budget.

No one reallycares what I think, the pianos are all miked and sound just fine, in tune and all.. but I sure am tired of them.. (it's been a long day).. oomph is good.

(I'd certainly at least see if there is a longer, very good condition used Baldwin out there. P A Centers actually see a lot of action with fairly strong pianists. )

I'm stating the obvious, but the difference between a 5'5" piano and a 5'10" piano is a mere 5 inches. The difference in sound, however, can be significant. It's usually not that difficult to make space for an extra 5 inches.

Definitely try to audition a well prepped 5'10" Hailun before settling on a smaller piano.

Good Luck! I remember when I was in high school and a brand new Yamaha C2 was added to our choir room. It was so exciting!

The only problem with this idea is that you are really relying on the PA systems ability to reproduce the sound in the same way the internal speakers do. Most high school auditorium PA systems are of marginal quality at best.

I'm not usually a big fan of BOSE, but one product they make that I actually do like is the L1 speaker system (http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIE...stems/index.jsp). If you decide to go the digital route, I would consider amplifying its sound with a BOSE L1 system -- much more natural sound than a horn-loaded-tweeter driven PA system in an auditorium can deliver.

Just some thoughts.

I talked my Fine Arts Director into looking at a Yamaha C2. Mmmmmm - I'm hopeful. I did some measuring and we can fit up to a 6'1 without putting anything too close to the edge of the stage.

I'm looking to see if there is a Hailun or a Fandrich in town that I can take a look at and play.

Kawai RX-2 is 2 inches longer than the C2 :p But I'm sure at this point it's more about tonal preferences and overall design than those 2 inches...

Fandrich!!! yes!

you should contact them.. http://www.fandrich.com/

Altho I did not buy one, they were the most accomodating, nicest people ever. I've heard so many good things about the 'rebuilt' Fandrichs... unfortunately i live quite a ways from their operation.

You are building a garage. What is the budget for that? You can't put some of that budget toward a better piano. I would think that that a carpenter is not cheap.

Who will be moving the piano in and out of that garage after each performance? Even with wheels, that is not a trivial thing. The piano will get banged up with each move back and forth, putting a wear and tear on the instrument.

You can't just put a cover on the piano to keep the kids off of the piano during non-performance hours? Just asking obvious dumb questions, i guess.

Dear Choir Director,

I service pianos for several school districts, a set of community colleges, and performance venues ranging from 200 to 2000 in seating capacity. I'm very happy that others have pointed out the problems with the other pianos (...I hate knocking products in these forums), so I can just make my preference available to you.

The Yamaha Conservatory Series (C-series) is an extremely stable, reliable, and well-built instrument. I have never encountered a string breakage problem with the C-series and I've seen a lot of them! One of my smaller venues seats 250, and purchased a C1; partly on budget, partly on size. That piano is a jewel. Performers love it, and the tuning stays solid as rock. They did build a small barn for it, just off the stage, to protect it from the stray debris that would otherwise collect on it. Bonus; the protected space also helps with the stability of the heat and humidity. Other venues feature C-7, C-6, and a couple Steinways (B and D). There is one Kawai, an elder KG, but I did restring that one a few years ago, and it keeps plugging along!

The Yamaha would be my first choice for you, with the Kawai a close second. The Fandrich and Hailun instruments are also well-built and designed (...especially that Fandrich!), but the absolute solidity and dependability of the kawai and Yamaha, from my personal experience, make them the two to look hardest at. Go for the C2, if you can swing it!

Not a Yamaha Dealer,
Not a Kawai Dealer,
I am,
The Practical Technician,

You do know that most more-than-half-decent pianos have locks to lock the lid and the fallboard, right?

There's always the heavy chains and padlock way. Electrified chains, of course.

Having a storage area for a piano is relatively standard for a performing venue, and with good reason. Especially in schools, the weirdest stuff happens to pianos: kids bang the crap out of them, people throw book bags on them, put water bottles on them, and even food... people carve their names in them, sit on them, stand on them, have sex on them (Not kidding.... it's a fantasy many music majors have, and I'm sure it wouldn't phase even some high school freshman one bit!), and move them carelessly (and some even roll off the stage from time to time). Oh, and piano covers? If my six years of conservatory experience is any indication.... good luck with that!

By having a secure storage area for the piano, and having trained people (often students) to move it, the school has its best chance to prevent serious damage and misuse.

It's funny... The one school I know that moves pianos around has staff that don't know how to move pianos properly, even when they're on easily rolled rubber wheeled piano trucks. LOL, they even BENT the damn truck! . And it's the students that move them, put the cover on, while the teachers uncover them, and use the lids as tables. Ugh :P sometimes, the roles of the bad and good are reversed in the way that shouldn't be...

I assure you that at most places, students and faculty are equally guilty.

Honestly, I am not surprised.

I am sorry if i came off as knocking the Yamahas... they really are wonderful.. i just had 2 services with 2 yamahas 2 small for the venue before posting. They are reliable pianos.

If you decide to go for a Yamaha make sure you get the C series and not the GC. GH or any other series. The only other Yamaha I would recommend would be a freshly rebuilt G series, but other series of Yamaha pianos are made for home and not commercial use and it makes a big difference.

Hi NMChoirDirector

If Yamaha US prices are in line with those in the UK, the price hike between GC1 and C1 (same size) is massive, whereas dynamic range and bass quality difference is small.

However, a C2 (5'8") should cost you only $1700-1800 more than a C1 and the difference in dynamic range and bass quality between these two is massive. ie C1 is IMO Yamaha's least value-for-money grand and the new C2M one of the best.

Pianolance: I agree that C series have the edge over G but to recommend a 'freshly rebuilt G series' would need to be qualified with who rebuilt it and with what components.

Sometimes the sharp pencil folk need to be told that a given decision isn't appropriate. In this case you are about to waste $16,000. Loudness doesn't substitute for volume. You just overdrive the instrument in the attempt to use it and still wind up dissatisfied while it proceeds to an untimely demise.

Not sure what image is best for your area, but here we have a large river and people understand that even though the water from a garden hose (or even fire hose, for that matter) can go faster than the river, the river has much more power due to its volume of flow.

It's not only that you have no bass to give support to the musical uses you propose. The soundboard area is simply incapable of moving an adequate amount of air to appropriately couple the string energy to the air in the space.

It is understandable that the school wouldn't want to just pick up a piano from a private party. However, a used piano from a reputable dealer represents a minimum of risk -- not only because the dealer will have inspected the piano and will be motivated to make sure it is satisfactory, especially in a high-visibility venue, but also because you now have certitude rather than assurance: the piano has survived a number of years without any original manufacturing defects showing up and so, in a sense, doesn't need the same warranty as a new instrument that hasn't yet proved itself.

You will be doing your school a favor to reconsider the present purchasing proposal. Good luck!!

Yup. +1

I don't disagree with that, I was merely stating that a really good rebuilt G can be an excellent, commercial, institutional grade piano as opposed to a home quality piano. I think the C has an edge over a G but I would definitely consider the right G because some of them are truly great pianos.

On the note of rebuilt G series...

I once visited a piano shop overseas that specialised in rebuilding old, worn out Yamaha pianos. In their storeroom, they had a rebuilt G2, G3, C2, and an unrestored G3 awaiting restoration. I got to wander around the showroom and play the pianos, and I actually noticed between the rebuilts of similar sizes that the tonal differences between the C and G series was very small. Even the unrestored G3 sounded nice, pianolance is right, some of them are truly great pianos.