I know the work of a piano technician is a highly skilled, highly respected (at least by me!) craft. I, for one, would trust only the most accomplished of piano restoration experts to do restoration work on any piano I own that requires it.

That said, I'm curious as to what, if any, restoration steps can possibly be executed by an accomplished player with little tech training other than intense book study and an insatiable desire to learn. I know this sounds like a restoration DIY inquiry and likely screams "WARNING! WARNING! DON'T GO THERE!", but I'm seriously interested if there are any parts of a good restoration job that can be done by a lay person equipped with the proper parts, tools, study materials, and the right amount of money, yet little hands-on experience. Is there anything?

Yup. Picking up a phone and calling a rebuilder. As a lay person, you are not qualified to make judgments on what needs to be replaced (and with what), and what doesn't need to be replaced. You don't have the years of experience to know how it comes apart, and how it goes back together. That's not to say that this stuff is rocket science, but if you don't know how, and have no one to baby sit you, you'll run into costly mistakes. You also don't have access to the same tools we do, because supply houses only cater to the industry.

Get yourself a project piano and go to town. It's best not to learn on your Steinway. I'm assuming you have some books and tools. Find a way to check in with a technician every once in a while so you can find out if you're way off-track.

Thanks to both of you. Kinda what I anticipated. Zeno, that was my next question. Thanks for anticipating it. Is the assumption that most techs first get started in the business/hobby by apprenticing under an experienced tech an accurate one?

It depends, business or hobby?

The best way is to go to one of the schools (Chicago School, North Bennett, Western Ontario). After that, there are correspondence courses, which could be combined with PTG activities, as could apprenticing. It can be hard to find someone to apprentice with. Good luck.

Good grief I hesitate to post this for fear of getting crucified, but I completely disagree that a piano is somehow so complicated that an intelligent person can't pick up a book on the subject (I got the Reblitz book) and do quite a few things himself. Shall I list the various things I've done to my 1979 or 1980 6' grand piano without a single formal class, with no technician-teacher, and even before I got the Reblitz book?
Day 1 that the piano arrived----
1) Studied the case and quickly determined how it came apart to remove the action.
2) Removed the action to fully clean it.
3) Repaired the cracked hammer shank on note #88.
4) Found and tightened the damper-assembly system screws that were loose causing a loud thud in the bass notes. (I didn't even know what was causing this problem when I bought the piano but I had no doubt I'd determine the cause.)
5) Straightened and leveled the damper spoons which were causing the dampers to rise so unevenly, and straightened the numerous crooked dampers by adjusting them in their base.
Day 2---
1) Replaced a broken string in the upper octave.

In the last few months I have also completed the following--
1) Traveled all the hammers in the bass section and put shims under the flanges to correct the 11 that weren't hitting the double-string notes evenly.
2) Removed, stripped, sanded, and repainted the Fallboard, Keyslip, and both front legs that were all marked, scraped, and also gouged. (The finish is satin black, so this wasn't really very difficult.)
3) Carefully measured with my micrometer all the tenor and treble strings to find any that were the incorrect gauge. I found 4 that were wrong and replaced them with the correct size.
4) Straightened jacks in some of the whippens that were scraping along the side of the cradle and making noises. (To do this, I obviously had to disassemble and re-assemble the entire action.)
5) When re-assembling in 4 above, I also corrected the distance between the flange pin and the whippen pin, setting it to the manufacturer's specification.
6) I also cleaned all the center pins and front pins while the action was apart.
7) I temporarily moved a couple whippens from the center of the keyboard to the end notes. These whippens will be replaced when I decide how much I want to spend on new whippens---all of them or just some?
8) Corrected the unnecessary play in the sustain pedal.
9) Replaced a missing bass string with a brand new one.

I am looking forward to additional projects including replacing the felts under the keys and re-leveling them, replacing all the damper felts, and getting new hammers, flanges and shanks. (A very kind tuner/tech from Rechel Piano, Mike Rechel, is going to help me with recommendations on what hammers to purchase and this project will likely start in the next week or so. He also tuned it, of course.) Someday I will restring the piano to take advantage of an improved string scale. If I didn't have 3 little ones demanding so much time, I might have already done that one. ;-)

Now granted, I am very mechanically-inclined and an IT professional (which probably accounts for my patience with mechanical things?), but all these things were accomplished with absolutely no training, nor having ever worked on a grand previously. All I ever did was play pianos and dream of owning a nice grand someday. The current market made purchasing one a rather simple decision, and my family and I have been absolutely thrilled with it. It has a bright future and will only getter better and better as I continue to "restore" it.

I do thoroughly enjoy reading the comments and advice from the many gifted individuals on this site and thank everyone who has ever responded to any of my questions. There are, however, many people who could do the things I've done with my piano---while certainly there are many more who would even be afraid to try. But I find it a little silly to say a piano is so complicated that we mere mortals can't accomplish some nice projects on them.

Amen Steve. While it's true that one should proceed with caution, America has largely lost its "can do" attitude. People should learn more about their pianos, learn to tune them and do basic repair and refinishing, etc. Although I'm an amature tuner, I tune my piano to a fairly high level, at least good enough for me and I'm pretty picky. I did have my piano rebuilt by a professional and wouldn't have attempted a job that big, but it's great to learn how to do things yourself. This goes for other areas. It's not complicated to give your car an oil change, but most people pay Jiffy Lube $40-$50 to do something that they could do for less than $15. Every spring I give my lawn mower at tune up for about $20, but if I sent it in to the shop they would charge me $75 or more plus delivery. Sure there's something to be said for paying for convenience, but there's much more to be said for learning to roll up your sleeves and get dirt under your fingernails. Come on America - learn to do more, it will do you good.

Good for you Steve, to learn about pianos and to successfully do work that improves your piano's performance. No one claims this is brain surgery. On the other hand, it is not as though anyone can do this and actually not cause more damage. As piano technicians seeing lots of pianos every week, we see many, many more problems created than solved by laymen.

For anyone wanting to pursue piano repair as a hobby, a more appropriate forum than this one might be:

DIY Piano Tuning Forum

At one level the piano is simple 175yr old technology. And then on another level, it demands a subtle balance that takes a lot of talent and experience. Also, the piano is simple to play, just push the key down. And then on another level, imagine Rachmaninoff playing. We all start at the beginning. Have fun.

(emphasis by me)

I disagree. That forum is a blog mostly for sharing DIY tuning experiences, exactly as its title and various topics say. Although I haven't read each and every posting, I havent' seen any repair topics discussed there. Someone considering piano repair as a hobby would hardly find any answers there.

Mark:

That DIY Forum could become a great resource. It just hasn't taken off. So, yeah, I guess it is not very appropriate. But then this Forum is not meant to be a DIY Forum, and so is not appropriate, either.

But let's remember the original question is about restoration, not just repair. Myself, I do not feel qualified to do restoration. I have had some project pianos and realize that I would need much more experience to be able to restore (or re-build, or re-whatever...) a piano and be happy with the results. And I think you can only learn so much from a junk piano. They are not capable of much.

Pianolance, what is your time worth per hour? 1/2 hour of my time costs more than the oil change Jiffy Lube charges me for, so from a cost standpoint, not changing my own oil saves me money.

Steve in Cinci, If you had the correct tool, you could have fixed those miss-aligned jacks (4) in a few seconds, without taking the action completely apart, or removing whippins from the action stack.

As far as the original question - you can do to your piano whatever you want.....Learn from it.....hopefully you are not practicing on a quality piano.

Absolutely.
It is up to the individuals themselves to "make it happen" The only reason that anything "happens" here on the Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum is because the piano tuner/technicians actively get involved. I think a DIY forum (on any site) is a good idea for those inclined. Don't hold back... go for it!

For me, once again, this opens an interesting question on the (often fuzzy) lines between
"DIY who comes in search of a quick-fix answer",
"DIY who comes in search of a technically founded answer"
"beginner who is eager to learn",
"amateur who has already done and learnt a few things",
"autodidact in search of more detailed info",
etc.
etc., right up to
"guru concert technician with 30,000 tunings, 3,000 regulations, 300 rebuilds, 30 tuning levers and 3 professional society memberships to his name"

Yes, agreed, DIYers can share their experiences amongst themselves. But they can learn more from professionals.

So, Jeff and Jurgen, at which point would it become "appropriate" for an autodidact to ask questions on a forum such as this?

I think you'll like this answer. I see it as appropriate for anyone to ask any honest question. It is the answers that can be inappropriate. But, hey, this IS a Forum. And, as someone I know has said, people are "messy".

Maybe we need a NEW Forum. One that talks exclusively about Forums!

I'm sort of in the same situation as the other amateurs here. Except that, long ago in the distant past, I actually worked for a couple of years as a technician. I was just out of the Army. Eventually I decided it wasn't for me, so I went back to school for something completely different, yada, yada, yada, fast forward 30+ years, and I am thinking about retirement.

I bought a project piano (from a member of this forum!) and plan to restore it, doing as much of the work myself as I can. Many of the tasks are "woodworking", which I have lots of experience with. I just finished watching the Bolduc soundboard DVD, and will watch the pinblock DVD next...

Sam

True enough, I have also successfully done many projects on my pianos over the year. Things like replacing hammers, front bushings and many adjustments. It takes care, patience, and meticulous work. However, it is not rocket science and as long as you recognize your limitations you can be very successful.

I went to a floor tile forum once to try to get some tips because I was considering tiling our kitchen and bathrooms. Many people there told me it was essentially impossible for a mere DIYer to successfully tile anything and ridiculed me.

I bought some books, studied up on it and very successfully tiled our kitchen and bathrooms and have had compliments on the work.

The reason the piano technicians and tile installers never see high quality DIY work is because we don't call them, we don't need to so they only see the disasters. I have seen a few examples of very poor work from pros in both fields incidentally.

I say, use some due diligence, study up and try some simple tasks at first to build some confidence. It's pretty rewarding.

the reason to do it has very little to do with money, the reason is the fun and satisfaction of doing it and you can do it when you want to.

I never discuss it here until now for obvious reasons.

Yes, I agree, Mark.

Maybe a different perspective might be useful. Everyone (mostly) has a profession; ours is piano technology, yours is something different. Let's say you are an architect or an optician or hair stylist or some other profession. You participate in an on-line forum for for your profession - architects or opticians or stylists. You go there for a number of reasons - to discuss matters of interest dealing with your profession, to run ideas or solutions to problems past peers, and you also come to the forum for fellowship with like-minded colleagues.

As the forum is not a closed group, amateurs and hobbyists lurk, read and participate. How many times would you as an professional patiently respond to questions and statements from that quarter such as: "How do I go about drafting a plan for my house addition", or : "You don't need special tools for that job, I got some great pliers at Wallmart for $4.99, they are perfect for re-adjusting the frames on my glasses", or "Where can I buy scissors to cut my cousin's hair?".

I swear this is not much of an exaggeration of some of the things that come up here on a regular basis. I agree with Jeff that not everything by everyone is appropriate in a forum that is dedicated/designated to professionals as this one is.

I have hobbies too, but you won't find me posting on professional forums dedicated to my areas of interest, going on about how I found a new and better mouse trap, and how anyone can do it etc.

Perhaps this forum should be restricted to people in the business then?

As long as it's a public forum, you can, and will get all sorts of posts and questions whether you like them or not. You don't really get to decide who and what is posted on a public forum.

I'd say that if someone posts something or asks a question that offends you that you just ignore it completely. Seems easy enough.

I would not call anyone a "pro" that does poor work.

If these people ask questions that some people do not like, then, by the same token, if we have to accept the question, then they, have to accept the answer that they receive whether that be a good one or, a bad one.

ALL DYIERS think they're work is good. Mostly, because they have not had a true "pro" check and critique it.

These examples I'm talking about advertised themselves as professionals and charged professional prices which made the people they did it to think they were indeed pros.

Using the standard that someone who does poor work is therefore not a pro, makes it automatic and self fulfilling that 100% of pros do perfect work. I guess it depends on the definition of pro.

It's correct that if someone posts on a public forum, they may get any kind of answer whether they like it or not. That is also part of participating in a public forum. You don't get to choose what's posted. Frustrating sometimes but that's the nature of the beast.

I didn't say you have to accept the question any more than they have to accept the response. It's just that you don't get to choose what's posted. You may well not accept it.

That's why I suggested you make this a restricted forum, then you wouldn't be subjected to the DIY Riffraff.

I wonder what response I would get if I used "DIY" and "Riffraff" in the same sentence... Hmmmm....
Your suggestion is a moot point, if you think about it for more than a few seconds.

Personally, I would define a "pro" as someone who does that work for a living, that is, their profession. Quality work is a completely different subject.

My main "profession" is troubleshooting problems and fixing poor workmanship issues from previous licensed, certified contractors. I had to learn that building codes and quality craftsmanship are two different things. What people will live with varies as much as the level of quality in that work.

When you look for a place to fix your car, do you just go anywhere? If you are in a new town, do you just go to any restaurant, or do you ask, where's a good place to eat? If you're looking for a dentist. . . well, they're all pros, so they should all be good, right?

I'm new to this forum, and I didn't know that it was for "pros" only. I would agree that probably most DIY'ers mess things up, but it seems to me most of the ones here are here in the first place because they want to learn, and do a nice job. The sloppy ones won't even bother asking.

MAFreeze is just asking for some friendly advice.
I started playing around with the idea rebuilding pianos a few years ago and it's very appreciated when someone is willing to give me some advice.

Your question "Is there any restoration steps that can possibly be executed by me"

That question can only be answered by you. If your willing to learn then yes.

Check out "you tube" there's quite a few videos on everything from refinishing, replacing strings, voicing hammers, etc.

Good Luck, Have fun

Dan piano tinkerer

Lousy work, is lousy work regardless of price as far as I am concerned Roger, then, that person is not a pro.

Whenever someone advertises "professional piano tuning" or, "A-1 piano tuning" RUN. The A-1 is nothing more than a gimmick to be 1st in the phone book. If a person is a professional, they don't have to advertise it as such. I always question an ad that says professional anything. I guess it's because of what I see from tuners that advertise as being professionals.

My definition of a pro would be someone that does the best job possible on any given piano and can do it correctly with what they have to work with and if someone follows up after them, they will say, wow, nice work. A real pro, will not be afraid to ask for help regardless of what the situation is, if they cannot do it right or are not sure about it, so that it does get done correctly. They attend some sort of class, somewhere at least once in a while to learn as much as possible. They read a lot on the topic and they are not afraid to ask others for advice and or offer it when "appropriate." I also prefer pro and quality on the same line. a pro golfer, is generally an excellent golfer. And no, just because some asks questions, it does not make them a pro.

Probably more than anything else are the questions being asked merely for free advice on something they really have no intention on going any further with in the future. Or, only doing it part time. If they are serious about it then, that's different. So many are not.

Nothing is automatic until you earned it.

I should have said expect not accept...

Gentlemen:
May I ask about the *type* of question that is asked. I have, in the past, asked questions concerning what the opinions are of those who have done some procedure regarding the brand or type of product you have used. For example, let's say I am interested in replacing the hammers in my piano and so I ask if any of you have done that in this specific piano. Isn't that an entirely different question than "I want to replace my hammers; will you give me a tutorial or tell me how"? I get asked for my advice and opinions about computers all the time since that is my profession, but that's certainly a different request than "will you come over and fix my PC?"
Now, I can read the manufacturers' marketing material as well as anyone else, but isn't it completely understandable that I would seek the opinion of individuals who have done the job and may have specific recommendations on what products work or don't work for a given situation? If we can't ask those who do the work on a regular basis --the pros-- what their opinions, recommendations, or experiences have been, then I would be truly worried about the ramifications in our everyday lives well beyond piano repair.

There is simply no way I'm going to get even a coherent response to "what hammers would you recommend for my 6'6 grand piano" if I ask the architect or accountant next to me on the plane. Rather, I come here to individuals like all of you. My tech had not ever replaced hammers on my specific brand; certainly it can't be impolite to ask others who have done that what their opinions are.

Regards,

Well, I work in a specialised branch of material science and chemistry. To my knowledge, there are no forums on electrocatalysts. (Public discussion is hardly to be expected, as there are issues of intellectual property involved.) But to answer your question: if there were such forums, public ones, and if I participated in one of them, and if there were questions and statements from "that quarter", I would patiently respond until (yes, you guessed it) my patience ran out. And once that happened, I'd realise that I can't choose who posts what on a public forum, so I'd ignore questions and statements from "those quarters". (As Roger already suggested.)



This forum is designated as follows:



Nowhere do I see any limitation on who may post those technical questions, nor on how qualified they should be.

So for my part, I believe it's quite appropriate for non-professionals to ask questions about piano technology in this forum. More important, to my mind, is the issue of who is qualified enough to give answers. Good and appropriate answers.