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#1823872 - 01/13/12 07:17 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: torhu]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5926
Originally Posted By: torhu
I think that if you for economical reasons or other can't have your child playing on an acoustic piano, you should give them another instrument. A guitar is a lot cheaper, less noisy, and more portable than a piano. But it's still a good instrument that will grow with them, while a digital piano is neither of those.

The power of a musical instrument lies in its expressive power, and later, in it's power to inspire. It does not lie in its power to show other kids' parents how "cultural" your child is. A trumpet, a flute, a drum kit. Any real instrument is a good instrument. A digital instrument is NOT a real instrument, whatever someone on the internet, or a salesman might say. It's something they might want to check out as they grow older, but not something that's going to make them continue to play they instrument from their childhood, through their teens and into their adulthood.

I've been a professional pianist for 18 years, and for those who care, a piano teacher for 9 years. Most of my piano students are there to fullfill their parents' dream, not their own. Which usually leads to nothing at all. Believe it or not, even though to you I'm just some random guy on the internet, I know what I'm talking about.


With all due respect, I think you're wrong. A piano is the ideal instrument for a kid to learn, not a guitar - if true musicianship is the ultimate goal. Most children who 'learn' the guitar just end up using it to strum chords to accompany pop songs - you don't even need a teacher for that (I know, I am a self taught guitarist who can just about get by playing Stanley Myers's Cavatina in John Williams's arrangement, but who have no hope of ever playing Tárrega's Recuerdos de la Alhambra or Albéniz's Asturias - I mostly just strum chords accompanying pop songs.....), whereas a piano - if taught properly - will instil knowledge of melody and harmony and how they work together, as well as use of proper dynamics, articulation, tonal control...

Most children will need to be pushed to learn any musical instrument, unless (or even if) there's already a musician in the family. What happens after the formative years is down to both child and parents. And a good digital piano - that allows expressive playing, even if not up to an acoustic's level, can develop musicianship. As long as it's used properly (i.e. no fiddling about with volume control just so that the parents can watch TV while the child is practising - use headphones if necessary), it can inspire the child to greater things.
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#1823910 - 01/13/12 08:48 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
ntw001 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Kent, UK.
Oh my dear.

What did I start?

Sorry OP.
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#1823937 - 01/13/12 09:27 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: torhu]
whitfit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 80
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: torhu


The power of a musical instrument lies in its expressive power, and later, in it's power to inspire. It does not lie in its power to show other kids' parents how "cultural" your child is. A trumpet, a flute, a drum kit. Any real instrument is a good instrument. A digital instrument is NOT a real instrument, whatever someone on the internet, or a salesman might say. It's something they might want to check out as they grow older, but not something that's going to make them continue to play they instrument from their childhood, through their teens and into their adulthood.



This just sounds ridiculous. The rantings of someone who has very fixed ideas about what is right and proper. Useless to argue with, though. I see some efforts - good, because other people who don't know much shouldn't be subjected to this kind of silliness if they stumble across this opinion and are told by a fuddy-duddy that they can't really learn to play or appreciate the piano if they have no room in their life for an acoustic piano.

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#1823941 - 01/13/12 09:32 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3493
Loc: Pennsylvania
Comes to a digital piano forum and says "people should learn guitar or some other instrument instead of piano" and "digital pianos are not musical instruments."

Basically that behavior defines the phrase internet troll. I should stop feeding them.

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#1823945 - 01/13/12 09:42 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 290
Loc: Virginia, USA
Quote:

With all due respect, I think you're wrong. A piano is the ideal instrument for a kid to learn, not a guitar - if true musicianship is the ultimate goal. Most children who 'learn' the guitar just end up using it to strum chords to accompany pop songs


Most kids never learn the piano even with lessons from a good teacher. For every kid that gets past the most basic songs, there are over a dozen who have quit and ended up hating it. How many kids that play a violin in middle school or high school ever play it after graduation? Guitar has a very easy learning curve, as you say they strum chords to pop songs. But the avenue for advanced musicianship is there, the fact that it easier to get started playing songs they like makes it a lot more enjoyable for the child.
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#1823948 - 01/13/12 09:48 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: whitfit]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 184
Note that I was talking about what people buy for their kids to use, not what they buy for themselves. And it's fine to start your kid out on a digital piano, then get them an acoustic later on if they are getting serious about their piano playing. Some of them might turn out to be more into using other sounds than piano, hooking the DP up to a computer and creating music using a sequencer, etc. In which case a digital is of more use to them than an acoustic would be. This isn't all black and white. I'm sorry if I came off sounding like that's my opinion.

But as for claiming that a digital piano is more or less the same as an acoustic, that's something I cannot agree with. Maybe it will be true in the future, but currently it isn't. Current digital pianos have more limited expressive capabilites than acoustics, and don't give you the same feedback while playing (or inspiration, if you will). These things probably matter a lot more to advanced players than to beginners, though.
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#1823965 - 01/13/12 10:23 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: torhu]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1722
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: torhu

But as for claiming that a digital piano is more or less the same as an acoustic, that's something I cannot agree with. Maybe it will be true in the future, but currently it isn't. Current digital pianos have more limited expressive capabilites than acoustics, and don't give you the same feedback while playing (or inspiration, if you will). These things probably matter a lot more to advanced players than to beginners, though.


I dunno I have not one but two 7 foot concert grand pianos and there is nothing they can do that I can't do on a DP ...sure they do it nicer and I certainly prefer playing them but they don't give me "additional expressive capabilities" at all. Kids are far better taught on digital keyboards with lots of sounds. Never teach a kid to play a song that's older then 6 months ...once you've got them playing their favorite tunes off the radio you've got them for life. And that's best done on a DP !
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#1823984 - 01/13/12 10:39 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1983
Loc: Portugal
It's interesting, this point about inspiration. torhu said:

[Digital pianos]don't give you the same feedback while playing (or inspiration, if you will). These things probably matter a lot more to advanced players than to beginners, though.

This is probably the case, but that does not mean that DPs - or synthesisers etc etc - are any less inspiring or less likely to give rise to a masterpiece. But you are right - it is not the same.

It is perhaps similar to writers using pens, typewriters or computers. The fact that a writer has written on a computer probably will affect the end product in some way. It does not mean it will necessarily be inferior, though.

From my own experience though, I know very well that it was the defects of the family acoustic piano I played as a child that inspired me to create something quite different - certainly not qualities that would be associated with a well set-up instrument, and certainly not envisaged design characteristics.


Edited by toddy (01/13/12 10:40 AM)
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#1823993 - 01/13/12 10:48 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: toddy]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2566
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: toddy

From my own experience though, I know very well that it was the defects of the family acoustic piano I played as a child that inspired me to create something quite different - certainly not qualities that would be associated with a well set-up instrument, and certainly not envisaged design characteristics.

From my experience it's the defects of most family acoustic pianos, the keys and tuning, that inspire most children to play guitar smile

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#1824010 - 01/13/12 11:09 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3493
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yeah, digitals are pretty much perfect for kids learning. Cheaper, lots of fun sounds, small enough to go in their bedroom, and quiet enough that they don't disturb the rest of the house much, easy to record, etc.

Digitals certainly have limitations, but so do acoustics, especially uprights like most houses are likely to have. The low price and low fuss of digitals makes them a feasible choice for many households that otherwise simply wouldn't give their kids the opportunity to play. In my experience there are lots of young people who would like to play piano but do not because their parents can't afford lessons or a piano, while the number of kids pushed into piano against their will is small (after the age of 11 or so).

I think everyone should get digitals for their kids. Big expensive acoustic grands should be reserved for either very dedicated kids or adults, who have already shown that piano is important to them.

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#1824014 - 01/13/12 11:22 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: gvfarns]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1983
Loc: Portugal
Spannish Buddha said: From my experience it's the defects of most family acoustic pianos, the keys and tuning, that inspire most children to play guitar
smile
Ha! Yes, that too. But to put it in context - my experience, which was probably quite typical, was that the piano was common place, old fashioned, boring and faintly comical. The guitar, on the other hand, was exotic, extremely attractive & sexy, and of course, ultimately a stepping stone to the new music: rock.

But at about 13, I did make a recording using our old clapped out piano (which my parents had tuned once a year, by the way - middle A was always the first to go out of tune, but the tuner was too lazy to sort it out, I suppose). And this recording used the knocking keys, the lack of bushing around the pins and other short-comings to produce a piece of what John Cage called 'prepared piano'. But to me, it was just the available material. This is what kids will always do. It is only we old farts who worry about such things.

So I'm not sure who's being more conservative here - certainly for straight adventure, the acoustic is the one you want.
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#1824016 - 01/13/12 11:22 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: gvfarns]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 184
Quote:
Yeah, digitals are pretty much perfect for kids learning. Cheaper, lots of fun sounds, small enough to go in their bedroom, and quiet enough that they don't disturb the rest of the house much, easy to record, etc.

My experience is that most kids don't care that much about things like non-piano sounds. It's fun for a few minutes when I show them the possibilites, but they quickly lose interest. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but most of them seem to prefer to just play.
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#1824213 - 01/13/12 04:34 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: torhu]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3493
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: torhu

My experience is that most kids don't care that much about things like non-piano sounds. It's fun for a few minutes when I show them the possibilites, but they quickly lose interest. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but most of them seem to prefer to just play.


Actually I think that's true of almost all of us. Certainly it's true of me. I only ever use exactly one piano sound in any one period--whichever acoustic piano sound is my favorite at the time.

I strain to imagine who uses trumpet and voice sounds. Not anyone very similar to me.

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#1824456 - 01/13/12 11:15 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: torhu]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: torhu
This isn't all black and white. I'm sorry if I came off sounding like that's my opinion.


Originally Posted By: torhu
A digital instrument is NOT a real instrument, whatever someone on the internet, or a salesman might say.


That sounded pretty black and white.

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#1824655 - 01/14/12 10:15 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
JPH42 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/11/12
Posts: 5
First off - thanks to all for feedback on choosing the keyboard itself, I'll take her to the store and get her to try both units. Once that is done, we'll get the plastic out and install that in the basement in a jiffy.

I think that the "feel" which will be like her teacher's piano has significant value, if one of the two is too alien then it becomes somewhat counterproductive.

Secondly, if you wish to voice options / troll / hijack conversations, even if your intents are helpful, please don't. It's very annoying. The topic was to choose between two slabs, nothing more. If you want to debate, please start your own thread. Thanks for understanding.

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#1824672 - 01/14/12 10:41 AM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3493
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: JPH42
Secondly, if you wish to voice options / troll / hijack conversations, even if your intents are helpful, please don't. It's very annoying. The topic was to choose between two slabs, nothing more. If you want to debate, please start your own thread. Thanks for understanding.


Haha, it would have worked better to have said this about 40 posts ago. If you want to control the direction of a thread you have to participate in it a little more.

In answer to your question you got a few Yamaha votes, a few more Rolands, and everyone agrees that she should try both out and choose and that you won't go wrong either way.


Edited by gvfarns (01/14/12 12:18 PM)

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#1824742 - 01/14/12 12:43 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
RDW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By: JPH42
We're looking for a digital piano (don't insist, not the real pianos) with USB for storage and host control, good keys, good sound. She's project-driven so the usb host is key to hook up Garage Band when she's ready to tackle this.


I'm not sure I'd let built-in USB connectivity dictate the choice! Anything with MIDI out can act as a MIDI controller for Garageband. Anything with line out can feed audio to a sound card for recording. How about (e.g.) the P155, which has built-in speakers and optional matching legs, making it a pretty practical home piano?

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#1824824 - 01/14/12 02:17 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3493
Loc: Pennsylvania
And of course, the P155 also has USB connectivity. Sounds are not as high quality, though, I would expect.


Edited by gvfarns (01/14/12 02:17 PM)

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#1824834 - 01/14/12 02:31 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: ntw001]
suniil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 154
Loc: Parent of a Musician, London
Very true indeed! But that's why I spend more time here than in teachers section smile . Travelling along with fast moving technology is not always easy

My 10 year old daughter learnt only on digital pianos, started on very cheap Casio PX130, then moved to Roland FP-7F. She has no problems in switching between Acoustic Grand at Teachers / Exams / audition places. She got into Grade 7 (UK ABRSM) level and taking the exam in another 2 months.

Here is what she is at the moment

http://soundcloud.com/gayatrinair/sets/piano-recitals/


Originally Posted By: ntw001

Flip over to the 'teaching' forum and you'll find many a teacher who will advise against learning on a 'slab'.


Edited by suniil (01/14/12 02:36 PM)
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#1835316 - 01/30/12 08:00 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: suniil]
JPH42 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/11/12
Posts: 5
Got the Roland this weekend - my monkey tried both and she found the keys to be closer to a real piano than the Yamaha - thanks all for your input!

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#1835378 - 01/30/12 10:20 PM Re: New digital piano for 8 year old Yahama CP50 or Roland FP-7F [Re: JPH42]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4600
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: JPH42
Secondly, if you wish to voice options / troll / hijack conversations, even if your intents are helpful, please don't. It's very annoying. The topic was to choose between two slabs, nothing more. If you want to debate, please start your own thread. Thanks for understanding.

Mistakes were made. Sometimes the main conversation sparks a more interesting / contentious sidebar.

Originally Posted By: JPH42
Got the Roland this weekend - my monkey tried both and she found the keys to be closer to a real piano than the Yamaha - thanks all for your input!

From one monkey owner to another: congrats!
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