This lore was recently described as common knowledge (Pogo + others). Not so common really! I feel like I know what you mean but I'd be curious to see how the brain trust here thinks about this. Also curious, really more curious, to know how you apply these ideas to playing. Some specific examples of what you mean would also be great...

Also "Bach is choral". My personal take has always been that the overarching theme in Bach is counterpoint. I mean, most of the greats are contrapuntal in some way but Bach seems explicitly so. For example, I love his choral works but would you say that knowing them somehow helps you play the partitas? Just axin....

I don't think you can play Mozart's piano music (indeed, any of his music) properly without knowing at least his Da Ponte operas, and their arias in particular. All his slow movements in his piano works and piano concertos are operatic (you can easily sing them, e.g. K330's slow movement - and they should be phrased accordingly), and often the outer movements too (e.g. the opera buffa element in the finales like K459's).

As for Beethoven, the long development sections in his music (piano as well as orchestral, e.g. the Hammerklavier) smacks of 'symphonic' - he greatly extended the development part of the classic Sonata form.

The slow movement of Mozart's K. 332 is particularly aria-like.

One of my teachers used to say while I played Mozart: "That's Donna Anna" here, or "here comes Figaro" and that must be "Cherubino jumping around" etc.. I did not always "get it". But now I do and I even recall the passages where he would say that. At times it all comes together very well. So well, that I now pay greater attention to the music in the operas and think of the sonatas when I listen to the arias, in addition to vice versa.. That is not to say that I have developed a liking to my Mozart. It still sounds far better in my head than it does upon emerging from my piano..

I never used to enjoy playing Mozart sonatas when I was younger. I started studying voice a couple years ago and sing several Mozart arias now, and it has totally changed my opinion of Mozart piano music. I definitely recommend listening to some Mozart operas before tackling a sonata. Like Andromaque's teacher mentioned, you start to hear the all the characters. Also, Mozart's melodic lines always seem to have the human voice in mind. You can hear the voice sighing in all the appogiaturas (no idea how to spell that, sorry).

Beethoven sonatas are a fairly new thing for me -- they were too intimidating when I was studying piano in my teens. I'm starting to play a couple now, so I think I will have to listen to the symphonies to see if they can influence my piano playing like Mozart's operas do.

And in terms of Bach.. I was just thinking about how to improve my Bach this morning. My teacher blasted me last night (well, she was actually nice about it, but I'm hard on myself) for my Bach P&F just sounding like notes. She says it's obvious in my Chopin or Haydn that I'm thinking about something when I play, but not my Bach. I'm also working on some Bach oratorio arias with my voice teacher, and I know I'm not just singing "notes" with those arias, so I need to find some way to approach the piano music the same way I approach the arias.

I think it goes for any composer though -- you will be able to understand that piano piece better if you are familiar with the composer's body of work.

When I was having some "trial lessons" with teachers, and I was doing my little bit of K332 and we were looking at some sections afterwards, one teacher said "La donna e mobile! I never heard that in there before!" And I never knew or thought about the interconnection with Mozart's operas and his keyboard work either. This is interesting!

The teacher seems to have been suggesting that Verdi lifted his opera theme from Mozart's sonata rather than that Mozart recycled his own opera theme in the sonata.

Oh, that's right!... I was wondering whose aria that was, but then forgot to wonder before posting that!! Well... interesting threads can make me jump to the wrong conclusions.

"Symphonic" Beethoven certainly was, but (getting into the operatic category) he certainly loved his recitatives (see 9th Symphony, etc.).

Good idea! But... let's see... 9th symphony, op.110... Are there others you had in mind? Two examples does not a principle make. I'm drawing a blank from, say, the other sonatas and symphonies, the quartets, etc.

-J

jnod, take some time and listen to some Mozart opera music. Over time, it'll start coming to you more and more. While doing it, follow along with text/translation, maybe even the score on IMSLP. It's quite fun for me, actually!

I will do that! Believe it or not, I have never thought of any of the keyboard music of either of these guys in this way...

I understand, and I remember coming to that realization at first. It is important to! 99% of piano music is a representation of something else, such as another instrument, a group of instruments, an orchestra, a voice, some other kind of sound, etc.

It also makes piano playing a LOT more interesting and fun (at least for me).

Well, I haven't listened to a lot of Beethoven lately, but I recalled that there were some sections in the late string quartets as well. In Op. 131 there are at least a couple, one of them rather extended, about 1 minute.

In general, Mozart tends to be operatic, while Beethoven tends to be symphonic. However, both composers were, of course, highly versatile. There certainly have been individual instances where one of them departed from his usual formal style. The slow movement of the Beethoven "Pathetique" Sonata is very vocal-like in its treatment of the melody. I can easily imagine that movement as an aria.

op. 31 #2

I suppose.

Also, the slow movement of op.31/1 is very operatic, but more aria than recitative.

-J

What do you mean you suppose? The first movement of 31/2 is full of recitative.

So this is more the way I've thought of both these guys - that is versatile. Now that I've starting trying to think this way I see what the idea is all over the place. Though I would say it works best for the slow movements in Mozart - I've looked at the sonatas mostly because I know them but it works everywhere - the horn concerti to name one example.

But it's not all or nothing - as in, it's not a rule. There are exceptions for both guys. THough I do realize that no one said it was a rule. It's not as if Mozart was sitting there at his keyboard at all times thinking 'how can I make this thing sound like a voice' - or ditto Beethoven and making it sound like a symphony.

But the similarities are so widespread that it seems like it must have been a sort of strategic and conscious priority for both of them. Does anyone know whether this was the case? I'm truly fascinated!

I don't mean to be thick here but honestly, I've just *never* thought of my piano like this before. My mind is truly blown!

I don't know how to explain it, I mean listen to Beethoven symphonies a lot. Get familiar with his writing, and you'll hear it in the sonatas. Or string quartets. I mean just the other day, I was playing op. 90 for my teacher, and in the first long lyrical theme (bar 9ish I think), he said "I want to hear the violin, play the violin" - you can totally assign those voices to a string quartet. And it makes you listen to it differently, and play it differently. It's more linear writing, everything's of equal importance, it's not like one voice with accompaniment - for some reason op. 22's second movement comes to mind for that. But look at op. 7's second movement, it's totally orchestral. When I look at the score, I can hear an orchestra in my mind. That's what I mean by orchestral. And it really does change the way you approach it, because you will shape things in a different way, you'll try to imitate instruments on the piano. Etc.