Advice, please.

One or two heads in the treble sound dull, especially at p/pp, but they are not loose or ready for replacement.

Is this likely to be a sign of faults in the hide glue joints between head and shank?

How would you repair them?

If the joints are loose, I take the heads off and reglue them. However, the symptom is that the notes click.

My guess is if the notes only sound "dull", you have misdiagnosed your problem. To me, this suggests a voicing or regulation issue. If the joint was faulty (loose), you'd hear a clicking sound. In that case, you'd want to make sure that the hammer is straight on the shank, and then apply thin CA glue to the end of the shank/tail and let the glue soak in; you do not need to remove the hammer.

CA glue is not good for gluing shanks.

There was a similar problem with another hammer on the piano some time ago.

I steamed the joint to soften the glue and rotated the hammer to reform it, the joint, but the steam had also twisted the shank. After a second steaming, to deal with the twist, the head became loose and was re-glued.

Is there a better way?

PS This note did not click and neither do the ones in my original question, but I can see why loose hammers would click as a general rule.

I definately second this. It will not fill gaps, nor will it stick well to the surfaces that have residual glue. Use a carpenters aliphatic glue (white or yellow) or better yet, hot hide glue. Clean off the previous glue collar first.

I'm going to put in my vote for CA glue on the joint or head. I've found it very easy, quick and effective. In fact I just used it to tighten the joints on a pedal lyre on a grand piano. No more squeak.

Yes. Quite so, but it's also about convenient disassembly, particularly joints that may have to be disassembled easily for part replacement such as hammers.

Thank you all for the advice.

Looking at the Upright Hammer Removal thread again, I see Johnkie recommends heated mole grips and Dan Silverwood went one better with Kamin's curling tongs.

If my daughters do not have something suitable, an alternative to heated pliers might be to put the hammer in a plastic bag and dunk the joint in hot water at 130F to 140F.

Let's see.

Well, I disagree. This was standard procedure at the university I worked for, and studied at. When you get to play any given piano eight hours a day for multiple years, after having done a repair, you have a pretty good idea of how well it holds up.

I too am skeptical that the note is dull because of a loose hammer head. That being said, if it is so loose that the hammer is changing its position on the string and hitting outside the string imprints, it it could make the tone dull.

I too have experimented with CA glue to reinforces loose hammer/shank joints. On one Wurlizter studio at a local school, I put the action in a cradle, turned the action upside down and soaked thin CA into the joint. I followed that with some catalyst spray and it eliminated all the clicking. I must admit that I haven't seen that piano for a few years so I'm not sure how well it is holding up.

I have not had any trouble removing a hammer shank that has been glued with CA glue - its sheer strength is much less then its tensile strength.

That being said, I usually carry a hammer shank removal tool and some Tightbond molding and trim glue for repairing loose heads.

I've never really had too much of a problem with re-gluing loose hammer heads. I find that whilst holding both the front and back of the hammer head and gently rocking it up and down generally is all that I need to remove it from the shank ... and then I'm able to apply a new collar of glue and re-fit. It does tend to be a great deal easier to do on uprights though because one can use a screwdriver under the back of the hammer as a lever and merely rock the front end.

Certainly it could be one source of dull sound, just as a loose centerpin could.



Yes, I have also done this on actions with loose hammer head joints.
I don't think it will have any negative effect on pulling the hammer head if it should eventually need to be pulled.

Gentlemen

The piano was professionally tuned on Friday and I noticed D7 was half dead after that.

Your skepticism made me look again and, lo and behold, brushing the strings at the capo bar with "Kamin's feather" transformed the note from the dullest to the brightest.

Truly amazing!

Thank you.

I don't understand what "Kamin's feather" is. Could you elaborate?

Kamins feather" by now an obscure reference to a conversation on this forum that Kamin (tech in Paris) and I had 3-4 years ago about what affects piano tone and he mentioned that even stroking the string swith a feather will bring up the tone. Nice to know this stuff isn't forgotten, Ian. By the way, how long did the effect of the feather last?

I miss Kamin's posts 'round here. lots of good insights. Are you still out there, Kamin?

Well, if the feather should ever lose it's effectiveness, you could always try plucking strings with a guitar pick pick to tune 'em (sorry, couldn't resist)

Ian:

Sorry to be the eternal sceptic, but enquiring minds want to know, so I have to ask. Steel strings running across a cast iron capo bar, and a feather stroke transforms the dullest note into the brightest??? No disrespect intended, but is that supposed to be a joke? I find the notion outlandish, to say the least, but working in material science and chemistry, perhaps I'm just too narrow-minded about steel and iron... (oh, and feathers too). If you are being serious, pray tell.

rxd:

Yes, Isaac is still out there, I see him posting occasional comments on youtube videos. (Username Pianotec, if memory serves.)

I'm going to be optimistic and guess that it was a joke.

What kind of feather??? I am only asking out of detached curiosity, please don't think this is a DIY question. I mean, I would never think of doing this without the proper training from a recognized expert!

Now seriously, I do believe that stroking a feather on a string can make someone perceive a difference in tone. How many of us are ready to admit that they have touched up a string a bit, heard the tuning improve, and then find out that the hammer was on a different string? The old saying is, "It depends on how you hold your tongue."

In Ian's case, I think he is looking for magic because of other posts that he has made. And, lo and behold, he has found what he sought. Hey, my car's engine always runs smoother and with more power after I wash the body! It's just how people are. If we weren't made like that, there would be no pianos because music would be meaningless.

It possibly that the tone gets even louder if the feather was brushed on either the Yin, or the Yang side of the piano string?

Yes, rxd, I was referring to one of your posts mentioning the feather, but I can't find Kamin's post about it now to see exactly what he said.

I was speaking figuratively of course. My feather was actually the tip of a (retracted) biro which I ran up and down the sides of the strings at the capo bar. One can apply a bit more pressure with a piece of plastic than a feather and I moved the strings just a little from side to side. So no magic except the result, Jeff, just a way to get rid of any corrosion, debris or a tendency to stick in some groove on the capo bar that might prevent the string from vibrating freely.

In answer to Mark's point, the note had produced only a dull thud when played p/mp, no ping at all. I too am surprised such small tweaks (albeit more than I may have led you all to believe) on three steel strings under tension on a cast iron bar can make such a difference, but they did.

I suppose there must have been some small change after the tuning to deaden the note, probably because I had been less than assiduous seating the top octave in the past. Flushed with success I tried gently massaging a few other strings and I'd swear some of that had an effect too, Jeff, but ...

Fortunately D7 was still fine this morning.

Ian's interpretation of the "Feather Technique" seems rather broad! Brushing the string with a feather is one thing, moving the string back and forth over the V-mound is another! Pushing the strings back and fourth out of their seat is a tried and true technique for improving the sound. The "Feather Technique" must be a piano placebo.

Another thing comes to mind: Sometimes a note can be tuned to sound dead. I had a teacher point a note out to me right after I had tuned it. Sure enough, the note seemed to lack sustain. I *slightly* detuned the unison and suddenly the note had much more presence, and she was happier.

Certainly moving the strings is going to knock them somewhat out of tune. The combination of effects is probably why the note is now standing out so strongly.

I was very surprised by the effect that rubbing very lightly downward near the treble section bridge pins of a Bosendorfer had. I used a hammer shank.

Seating the strings will change the tone, as will many things on a piano.

I hesitated to resurect this thread, but Ian took some flack on this one from people who should know better. How can anyone claim to have an enquiring mind and not perform the obvious experiment, with reproducible results, for themselves???. Particularly when claiming to have a scientific background.

The statement in question came from a conversation some years ago on this forum when I had noticed that the power of a note came up as a result of the action of my felt wedges brushing the strings when inserting them lightly to check which string needed the attention. Several other of our more experienced tuners had noticed as well and, among them was the statement that even a brush with a feather will have it's effect, as Ian, quite rightly, found out.

We all know that the changes in a pianos tone when it has been tuned is not purely the result of being more in tune? right? There's something more. I ask because, having just read this thread, I'm not sure how much anybody knows any more.

None of this was claimed to be any form of permanent cure for anything, just observations that any tuner of average intelligence couldn't help noticing in the normal course of tuning, or so I thought.

On that same tack, how can a tuner leave a note not sustaining properly?, How can they tune it properly in the first place without noticing the lack of sustain from the initial attack? It's a vital part of tuning, is it not? This is not advanced stuff.
A note that doesn't sustain is usually dealt with quickly by standard tone regulation techniques, all things being equal, I don't think I would disturb a perfectly good hard won unison. I find it quicker to have a long needle by me during tuning because it is quicker to cure it properly than fight to tune an unison that won't sustain.

Some of the other smart-donkey comments came straight out of the textbook on dysfunctional families. (I was once chided by an elderly dowager for saying 'smart-ass' so I told her the ass part refered to the dumbness of a donkey and somebody else jumped right on and asked her, 'why, what did you think it meant?'.

Anyway, I, for one would really appreciate it if guesswork answers were preceded with the statement, 'I guess....'

Than again, perhaps I'm just getting too damn crotchety..

Rant over.

rxd, I didn't rub hard enough or close enough to the bridge pins to re-seat the strings.

Sorry, Dave B, I misinterpreted your post. What interests me is, how long did the effect last? It's an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? Perhaps it lasts long enough to do some voicing practice without making any permanent changes, as Ian found.

I have hitherto regarded this as merely an interesting phenomenon but your post raises several questions, for example, a piano that hasn't been tuned for a day undergoing extreme nitpicking tuning. Many notes will not be as strong as those that have just been tuned. I have usually just reset one string of an already perfectly good unison to bring it up tonally. Perhaps just inserting the felt wedge between the strings string will do it. Then again, doing a lot of daily tunings on the same piano leaves me with too much time on my hands.

I have no doubt that playing a piano changes it but it can't be proven because we can't know how it would sound before playing it. Having said that, Now I know I've got too much time on my hands.

There was a twist in the tail of this story. As it relates to the vibration of strings, not hammers, I hope you will forgive me for putting it in a new thread.

Before putting Kamin's feather down, it did seem I had to do remarkably little to bring the dead note back to life. Moving the strings was to make sure of the result; I can't say now whether it was really necessary.

Well, the above is clearly directed at me, so I'd better respond.

Before you speak of "flack", dear rxd, please go back and read exactly what Ian found out!

He posted the notion here that running a feather along a string can make a tonal change. When pushed for clarification, it actually transpired that not only was his "feather" the plastic tip of a ballpoint pen, but that he actually applied sufficient force to move the strings sideways, i.e. to re-seat them! If that's the type of misleading writing we're to have around here, and if a concert technician is actually going to come to its defense, I'm not going to spend any more time on confirming any of it with scientific experiments.

My scientific background tells me this:
1) A feather can apply a force/mass in the order of micrograms, or a few milligrams at best.
2) A ballpoint pen can exert up to kilograms, and what's more, it's hard and concentrates the force on one point.
3) To unseat a string on a termination bar, requires significant force.

If voicing with a feather is indeed an



then I apologise to Ian and all other feather proponents for my "flack", and withdraw from this debate, my intelligence obviously being below average.



Ditto.

Sorry. Mark.
Thanks for going to the trouble of responding. I was reflecting the general tone of all the answers.
I was merely answering a request to clarify what seems to be now known as the feather "techique". I quoted what somebody else had said many years ago here and it prompted a torrent of scoffing.

Anyway, back to my main point, did you perform any experiments??