First, how can I evaluate the quality of a tuning lever? I've heard to avoid the cheap ones, but I don't know what distinguishes them from good ones.

Second, any suggestions for a source for a used lever? Ebay?

Thanks,

Al

With tuning hammers it is really fairly straight forward. You mostly get what you pay for. Professional tuners use good tuning hammers, costing $250 - $400. You can get something somewhat cheaper, but stay away form the $49.95 models, they will give you mostly grief.

If I were looking for cheap, I would consider something like this:
http://www.mothergoosetools.com/tuning_hammers/index.shtml

I highly recommend the Levitan Classic from Pianotek. It is the lightest, and stiffest lever for the money. They sell it for around $150.

It's difficult to choose a lever before you've been tuning for a few years. I suggest starting with what is referred to as an 'extension' style lever fitted with a size #2 tip.

The handle length of extension levers are adjustable to the torque feel of the of the piano you are tuning. It is interesting to experiment with the feel of different handle lengths.

I also recommend the Levitan Classic, mentioned above. It my first and only (so far) tuning lever. Some day, I'll probably get a Reyburn impact lever for uprights (Oh, how I hate tuning uprights!), but for now I'm very happy just using the Levitan since a good portion of the pianos I tune are grands.

Lots of good hammers out there and the best ones can get pricey but to a proffesional using them every day, its usually worth it. Stay away from any of them with permanently mounted tips or tips that use an unusual thread to mount to the hammer, a few of the pacific rim manufactured ones are like this. The cheapest hammers often have the cheapest tips on them also.

What I would like to know is who makes a decent tip these days. I've gotten half a dozen over the last ten years and they are all cr*p compared to the Watanabes from back in the 80's. Even the newer Watanabes just don't fit solid like the older ones did.

My favorite right now is a #2 Watanabe that I bought maybe a year ago. It's nice and tight, at least by my standard. The lever I use is a Fujan and they have now gone to Jahn tips so that might be one to try. I've never used one. I also have some Hale tips that I like for certain pianos. Guess I got lucky with the Watanabe that I like. Sorry you've had bad luck with them.

I'm sure there are many (millions?) of tuning levers in the attics of people who wanted to try piano tuning.

My question is: if I see a tuning lever at a garage sale or on eBay, and I know nothing about the brand or company, how can I tell if it's a good tuning lever?

For example, my piano teacher says she has a tuning lever around somewhere. If she wanted to sell it to me, how would I know if it's any good?

Can you think of any other sources of used tuning levers?

For example, is this tuning lever any good?

The lever shown in the picture is probably OK. At least it has a removable head and tip. Just keep in mind the better the lever the easier a time your going to have. That's why I strongly recommend the Levitan lever. Dan Levitan is one of Manhattan's top piano tuners. He put a lot of thought into the design and its price is unbeatable.

Stack the odds in your favor and get a good tool.

Stiffness is one of the main factors in a quality lever. I don't know how you would easily test that.

At an Annual PTG convention several years ago,Steve Fujan had a device to measure tuning lever deflection based on a particular amount of torque in order to compare standard tuning levers with his lever. I had him put the Levitan lever in the jig and it tested out a pretty close second to the Fujan. I wish I had written down the numbers, but at the time it convinced me that the Levitan lever has the best stiffness/lightness/cost ratio of the levers currently on the market.

Al, Why would you buy a tuning hammer from a garage sale or off eBay when. new tuning levers are affordable and readily available from reliable sources???

Hi guys,
Since Al was asking about eBay, I found this little kit that looks like everything you would need to get started, including a rosewood handle tuning lever:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Pia...#ht_3714wt_1224

or this?:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHAFF-HALE-BALL...b#ht_500wt_1007

Of course I doubt the quality, but has anyone actually had experience with these 'deals' and should we just ignore them and move on to something in the $150 range like Ryan was saying about the Levitan? Does the tip in the picture look removable?

I've had people ask me how to get started tuning on a budget as well, and it would be nice to direct them to a 'kit' like this so they don't have to order all the different pieces and possibly be more confused. Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks!
-Erich

This is the description of the product.

Quote from the eBay posting:
"Introductions:
Do you like the tuning kit which could help you play a piece of natural music? The music tuning kit here could meet your demand. Being made of high quality material that first-class piano equipment need, are also have standard structure with sophisticated craft. Besides theTuning Hammer great tuning quality, the stylish and newly tuning kit is durable and easy to use, promoting
the piano to have a reliable performance. This Tuning Hammer can bring no matter your music instruments or
yourself a higher taste. Don't miss this opportunity to buy Tuning Hammer, It is worth having!"

Does this inspire confidence in you? If so, bid high, bid often!

Hi Jurgen,

Well my Chinese should be so good! This eBay description has obviously been translated (poorly) into English. I'm just wondering, if you actually put this thing on a tuning pin, would it fall apart? Or would the tip not fit to where you can't tune the piano?

What about the second link to the ball-handle lever that I provided? That one is actually a brand name. Good price, but no rosewood in your hands either. What about tip quality and interchangeability?

I have the tuning hammer pictured in the first ebay ad, the one that is a kit. The tip does not fit on the tuning pins correctly, it is very poorly machined. I don't know if the tip can be replaced or if it's standard thread. The hammer is stiff enough but the lever is very heavy. I consider the money I spent on it as stupid tax.

Thank you Pianolance for your honest assessment/experience of the first tuning lever. I was hoping that someone here on the Tech forum had seen this in person. I will now appropriately steer my 'newbie-tuner' friends away from this lever and company on eBay.

By the way, I wouldn't consider it a poor decision on your part to have tried this kit. The pictures make it look very nice. It is very close to what I use every day, although I spent $180 on mine and it says Hale on it. And the tip does indeed fit every piano I have ever tuned. If you look on the bright side, you have a nice carry bag for a future quality hammer(hopefully) and a temperament strip and all the mutes you will need for a while. Rubber is rubber and felt is felt, so I'm sure these items could still be used.

Does anyone have any experience with the Hale-Schaff ball-handle lever that I put in the second link above? The price is really nice on this one - perfect for someone who is on a budget and doesn't want to spend upwards of $200 to get into a 'hobby' that might not pan out.

It's odd with piano tuning vs. other endeavors. If I wanted to get into Digital Photography for instance, most people would advise me to get a low-end digital camera first, cheap or free software to edit, and I presto I have a new hobby that I can ease into or leave on good terms (inexpensive terms ). If I really get into it, I can upgrade when the time is right skill-wise and financially. But with piano tuning, most techs will tell you that basically you're looking at upwards of $200 (by the time you get a pro-hammer, mutes, strip, tuning fork, possible ETD). It's not something you can ease your wallet into. You basically have to start with the best equipment that pros use. This would be like me going out and buying an Canon DSLR without knowing what ISO is.

Thank you, Pianolance, for confirming my insinuation that this kind of product, sold in this fashion, is highly suspect in regards quality and performance. I like your term "stupid tax", and I appreciate your candidness in reporting your findings.

As I said up above in this thread, in piano tools you mostly get what you pay for. I should add that sometimes, when buying really cheap, you don't even get that. In tuning hammers, I would say anything below $150 falls into that category.

Its a good thing that the seller of that ebay tuning hammer didn't use voice recognition software to type up the ad, or it would be spelled "tuning hammel"...a worthwhile tool to compliment your HFT vice glips.

I was troubleshooting a japanese made marine radio years ago on a ship. (Ended up being a tripped circuit breaker.) The one drawing had me confused for a while. A device was labelled as a "Spritter." I couldn't imaging what it could be until I realized it was just an ordinary "Splitter." The person doing the translating must have been dictating to the person doing the drawing.

Because I am frugal *cough* cheap *cough*. I am just going to experiment with tuning so that perhaps I can fix up pianos at gigs that are out of tune. It's quite likely that I won't do much tuning -- I have an electric piano.

So, I don't want to spend much on something I may not use for long.

Get a good lever, use it for a while and if you decide not to stick with it you will be able to sell it for probably 70% of what you paid. If you buy a Levitan Classic Lever, for $150 and then sell it later for $105, you are only spending $45 (plus the shipping) on a pro lever. I, for one, will be happy to by back your Levitan lever for that amount, just to have a a back up lever.

Al:

I buy used stuff from eBay, but not usually tuning stuff. Here's a hammer that might interest you:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHAFF-ROSEWOOD-...1f8a0ca#ht_1608

An awful lot of pianos have been tuned with ordinary tuning hammers.

If you will be putting a tuning lever on anyone's piano other than your own, you need to realize that the entry-level junk being sold these days can easily damage the tuning pins. Please don't leave a wake of damage on pianos you don't own because you were unwilling to spend $150. on a quality lever with a quality tip.

Entry-level junk tools are a complete waste of money and time, and certainly won't help you learn how to do this work.

The Dan Levitan lever is an excellent value, and very high quality.

If you simply must spend less, then buy a used lever from a professional piano technician. But expect to pay good money for professional tools, even used ones.

Firstly, does Pianotek deal with the general public, i.e. non-technicians? If not, Al would need to get an account with Pianotek somehow. If he needs to do this, he might as well go to Schaff too. Which is where my second point comes in:



Does that include Schaff's extension hammer? I must say, I'm very happy with mine. The Hale tips are so-so, but I'm getting a Watanabe tip soon. Even in the rosewood version, which is really just a nice-to-have, and even with the Watanabe tip added to the price, it's still under $150. I don't think anything about the hammer's quality could be called cheap, but that's just my opinion.

I'm using it on a Yamaha console with rock-hard pins tomorrow. Perhaps I'll eat my words by the time I'm done.

Hi Mark,
I believe we have the exact same lever! I was also going to recommend the brand that I use which is the Hale-Schaff rosewood extension with Hale tip. I really don't know the history, but I'm under the impression that Schaff was THE tuning hammer for pros in the early through mid 20th century and then Schaff somehow merged with Hale or bought Hale out in the latter part? Can you even buy a Schaff anymore, or is it considered a Hale now (or Schaff-Hale, since they wanted to keep the historic name on their product)?

I may be way off on my history of those two companies, but in any case they are considered pro quality/iconic are they not? My Hale tip has tuned hundreds of pianos ranging from Kimball spinets/Baldwin Acrosonics to Steinway grands, and the tip has ALWAYS fit the pin snugly without any feeling from me that it will slip off or damage (scratch/bend) the pins.

Problem is, like we saw with the 'kit' on eBay, there seem to be some impostors out there to watch out for, because this model is so iconic or 'typical' of what pros would use (or what people would think of when they think of a piano tuner's tools I guess).

Any clarification/corrections about this model and the companies of the past that have produced them is welcome.

Here is a link to Schaff-Hale products.
http://www.vandaking.com/piano-tuning-hammers.html

Most are under $150, but made in the USA and look quality to me. I would steer away from the $50 models as they are fixed and you have no length/tip options. But the Nylon extension model for $129 or even the Nylon fixed for $75 looks like a great way for a beginner to get started safely (same pro tip) and relatively cheaply.

Here's a link to a real kit (wink wink Al):
http://www.vandaking.com/piano-tuning-kits-Schaff.html

Scroll all the way down to the bottom. Nice hammer and rubber mutes/temperament strip and A fork with case (pretty nice starter kit if you ask me).

If I'm wrong in the quality assessment of the models on this website, please tell me. I'm sorry to press this issue, but I really want to direct beginning tuners to a website where they won't be cheated and also where they can spend less than $150. This HAS to be possible somewhere out there on the modern internet.

Thanks,
-Erich

You do not have to go far. This is a branch of PianoWorld:

http://www.pianosupplies.com/mm5/merchan...tuningequipment



$81.95

Thanks Jeff! You did better than I thought was possible for a kit. So basically, if the tip is a #2 Star that is a quality tip, you could theoretically stick it on the end of anything (metal rod, scrap wood, a mini baseball bat - ha ha) and would it be 'safe' to use on most piano pins? Is the price of a tuning lever all about the handle?

Erich:

I remember back when bell bottoms were popular. Mercedes-Benz car owners were found to be the most satisfied with their purchase. But who could spend $50,000 for a car at that time and not look like an idiot if they said it wasn't worth it?

The kit shown looks just like what my tuning instructor told me to get to start out with. I really and truly learned to tune in 5 lessons. The student hammer did not hold me back. But sure, I still find ways to improve, as I hope everyone else does, too. Later I got a Schaff extension hammer. I used the extension until my muscles got stronger, and then I never extended it again. I've used a student model again since then, and the only thing I don't like is the light weight. For tight pins I WANT a heavy hammer. So... I use the 2 lb speed hammer. (OMG it costs less than $150, and I can't see the emperor's new clothes!) I think the idea of a stiff hammer is over rated. The pin flexes so much I don't see how the stiffness of the hammer would matter.

With all due respect to your opinion and experiences, I don't think much of this would be representative of what the vast majority of qualified and experienced techs would agree with today.

Question... Why aren't hammers designed like tire-irons ie: the socket in the middle of the lever so that there is NO possibility of the pin bending so much as to damage the pinblock?????

I used a $100 rosewood extension lever for quite a few years. (although I never used the extension!) Then I had a titanium lever made by Mike Calahan, and than sold it and bought one from Charles Faulk. Then I bought a Levitan - it is by far the best lever so far. The extension levers heavier and more flexible. Why bother with them when something better is available?

I tried a Fujan that a client bought, and did not care for it. I have extension levers I bought 30-odd years ago. I have probably extended them twice since then for clearance, but mostly they are good because if the thread on them wears out, I can get another bar, rather than replacing the entire lever.

They have hard rubber or nylon handles, I forget which, because at the time, I had a wooden handled screwdriver that got all rough and was painful to use. I have no regrets about those handles, which were, and still are, cheaper.

I am not certain what the appeal of a light lever would be. The weight of the lever is negligible compared to the weight of all the other stuff I need to carry around in case something else is or goes wrong, and if I am not strong enough to lift the lever from one pin to another, I should be in another line of work.

Mostly, I just think you get used to what you get used to. If you never get used to your tools, again, it is because you belong in another line of work.

Because you need to use a lever with one hand (one hand is playing the keys). With a tire-iron style lever, the benefit of no pin twisting would require two hands, or one hand directly over the pin. In this case, it would have little mechanical advantage over a nut driver.

Some ideas try to come close to this. The Reyburn grand impact hammer does have the tuning tip in the middle of the hammer, and you can turn tight pins with one hand because of the impact action. Also, the Levitan professional tuning lever, (the one that looks like a big "C", not the "L" shaped one), supposedly puts no bending on the pin. I've tried both briefly, and they were very foreign feeling, but also very interesting ideas.

Regards,

And with all due respect back to you, I don't think the vast majority of piano tuners publicly express what their preferences are. I sincerely believe that there is an "Emperor's New Clothes" thing going on with many subjects of discussion on this Forum. That just is how people are.

But we can get away from this being a popularity sort of thing where with, as an example, temperaments we cannot. Can anyone get access to a deflect-o-meter or what ever it might be called and measure the deflection of a couple of different hammers at, say, 100 inch pounds including the spring of the tuning pin??? Then there would be something objective to talk about.

I find the flagpoling of the pins to be a controllable way to counteract both the residual torque of the pin and an aid in rendering the string. Just determine a optimal position for the hammer and perhaps modify the flagpoling with deliberate flapoling.

My first and current tuning hammer is a gooseneck hammer and its a piece of garbage. The first time I used a quality hammer was November Last year when we had to reglue the loose bass bridge on my 1908 Ebersole Player Piano, It was a schaff nylon extension hammer. It fit snug on the pin and made tuning a breeze. Im glad I only used that goose neck on my current projcect to remove the old tuning pins. I dont know how many times it had slipped on the pin and nearly rounded some off. Im about to put new strings on that piano and I wont even consider trying to tune the piano with that hammer, I dont want to dammage the new nickle plated tuning pins. I would tune the piano with a tuning pin crank before I used that gooseneck again. I suggest getting a good hammer to start it will make things alot easier. Im currently looking for a quality replacement to fit in the budget.

Sounds like a the gooseneck has a bad tip. Don't judge the gooseneck by its price tag.

The hammer still works you just have to be careful. But I suppose you get what you pay for. I'm Looking forward to a new tuning hammer.

I used an extention type Watanabe tuning hammer for 25 years and really got used to its heavy weight. Was reluctant to go looking for anything else since it worked quite well. I bought a Fujan about 3 years ago and haven't touched the old tuning hammer since, it rides in the trunk as a back up. The stiffness is only a minor improvement over a heavy duty wood handle and hardly noticable. Tiny nudges and bumps on the handle do transmit more directly to the pin than the old heavy lever I used. The Fujans lightness is what really impressed me. It swings off and on to pins so much easier, quicker and more co-ordinated now and helps keep an already heavy tool box lighter.

There is an old saying with foot wear that for hiking, every pound your boots weigh heavier translates in fatigue the same as if you had 5-7 lbs on your back. Knocking a lb of weight off a tuning lever seems to have the same effect at reducing fatigue..

A side question:
I've seen Watanabe and Hale #2 tips sold side by side on certain websites. Is there a big difference in build quality, grip on the pins, durability, or all of the above?

Would it be advantageous to trade out my current Hale tip for a Watanabe?

Thanks,
-Erich

Mr. Fujan has such a device, where a specific amount of torque is applied, and the deflection of the tuning lever is measured using a dial indicator. However, the flex of a pin is not included in this test.

I am interested in this thread because I am interested in restoring a piano as a hobby, and I am on a budget. Before reading this thread, I had narrowed my affordable options to two:
Buy from AMS piano tools. They seem to be made in the USA, and they will work with Apsco tips that I already own. What are the feelings on this company?
Or there are a variety of used nylon handle extension levers for sale on ebay. They appear to be Hale/Schaff, but it is hard to tell from the picture. So far, I have not found a nylon handle extension lever made by a non-reputable company. What do you think of this route?
Thanks for advice

My 36 year-old Hale nylon extension handle serves me well.

I don't do rebuilding but I have a ratchet tip that works with a standard socket wrench. I use it for replacing strings and it would be handy for restringing a whole piano. It would not, however, work for tuning other than a very rough tuning.

I use two hammers regularly.

A Rosewood Extension from APSCO for 30+ years. I think they were HALE products originally.

A Charles Faulk in Bocote-wood with a figured handle.

I decided a few years ago to start using that extension more in my daily service. My reasoning was that the tuning levers are only short so they can fit in the toolbox! For good control and ease of moving pins torquing at high levels it just makes sense to crank a few more inches into the lever. Why not?

I collect tuning tips...always searching for a tight fit as close to the becket as possible without touching the music wire. #3 most often is good, #2 for most of the rest. And I'll roll through the collection, when I come to a new piano. It just makes sense to have the greatest control and tightness possible with each piano.

Wood handles feel better. Nylon handles slip in my fingers, no matter how spendy they may be. I just need that wood at my fingertips! Avoid cheap. Get an extendable, at least as a back-up, you'll wish you had it someday. And go to a PTG convention, or regional seminar and walk the Exhibit Hall with a tuning pin in your pocket...and try a few tips!

Yr. mileage may vary,
Respectfully,